Talk:Military history of Switzerland

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Some suggested contents:

— RJH (talk) 15:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, citizen! —this is messedrocker (talk) 19:05, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Okay I added some brief sections. — RJH (talk) 19:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
On the independence, see Talk:History_of_Switzerland#Independence. 1499 refers to the Swabian War. There were many more internal conflicts: the Old Zürich War, Saubannerzüge after the Burgundy Wars, Wars of Kappel. But what's the plan for this article, anyway? If it's just to be a chronology, it risks to become a duplicate of History of Switzerland. Shouldn't it concentrate more on the structure, armament, tactics, doctrines, and strategies used by Swiss armed forces? The development of the Swiss neutrality might warrant a separate article, too... Lupo 22:37, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
One thing we should focus on is citing sources. —this is messedrocker (talk) 22:45, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
That goes without saying. Or wait... was this directed to me? You want sources for the independence thing? Try these:[1][2][3][4][5]
  1. ^ Schwabe & Co. (eds.): Geschichte der Schweiz und der Schweizer, Schwabe & Co. 1986/2004; ISBN 3-796-52067-7.
  2. ^ Im Hof, U.: Geschichte der Schweiz, Kohlhammer, 1974/2001; ISBN 3-170-14051-1.
  3. ^ Jorio, M.: 1648: Die Schweiz und Europa: Aussenpolitik zur Zeit des Westfälischen Friedens, Chronos Verlag, Zürich 1999; ISBN 3-905-31314-6.
  4. ^ Braun, B., Sieber-Lehmann, C.: Ewige Richtung and Erbeinungen in German, French and Italian in the online Historical Dictionary of Switzerland.
  5. ^ Braun, B.: Heiliges Römisches Reich – 3. Von der Reichsreform zum Westfälischen Frieden in German, French and Italian in the online Historical Dictionary of Switzerland.
Lupo 12:41, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
That's excellent, thank you. However, what my specific qualm was (which I should have elaborated) was that the article had gotten much larger, but the problem is that no sources were cited in the process. —this is messedrocker (talk) 14:18, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Indeed. In fact, it's even worse: the phrase "Despite maintaining neutrality since its independence from the Holy Roman Empire in 1499,..." is sourced, but it's utterly wrong. The source used (the CIA World Factbook) is evidently not a reliable source for historical facts. Not only did the Old Swiss Confederacy not become independent from the Holy Roman Empire in 1499, it didn't "maintain neutrality" from then on either! In the Italian Wars, the Swiss participated pursuing their own interests until the Battle of Marignano in 1515. A result of that engagement was the final conquest of the Ticino by the Swiss. The endpoint of military expansion of the Swiss Confederacy as a whole was Marignano. After 1515, Swiss participated in the Italian Wars only in the form of mercenary regiments in the services of foreign powers, in particular the French king. After 1515, there was only one further military expansion of the Confederacy, but that was driven by only two cantons: Berne and Fribourg conquered the Vaud, which until then had belonged to the Duchy of Savoy. Berne, together with the Valais, which then was not a member of the Confederacy but an independent ally, also conquered the Chablais region south of Lake Geneva, but these territories were returned to Savoy in 1567 (Bernese part) and 1569 (Part occupied by the Valais). Sources: see generally Schwabe & Co., and also Bouquet, J.-J.: Chablais in German, French and Italian in the online Historical Dictionary of Switzerland. on the Chablais. Lupo 07:45, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Topic of this article

All right, let's get back to the intended topic of this article. I do think that it should not retell a chronology of battles but should focus (as mentioned above) on the structure, armament, tactics, strategies, and doctrines of the Swiss armed forces. Some assorted off-hand comments (and thus not strictly sourced):

  • Battle of Morgarten: peasants armed with stones, sticks, and halbards against mounted knights in full armor. The knights were caught at a narrow passing in the mountains; on one side, there is Lake Aegeri, on the other side, steep mountain slopes, from which the Swiss attacked. The Habsburg forces were not in battle order but rode in a long line: they still felt safe, as they were still on Habsburg territory. Foot soldiers marched behing the mounted knights. When the Swiss attacked from the flank, there was no place for the knights to assume battle order or charge. The heavy knights were slain or driven into the marshes around Lake Aegeri, where they got stuck. Hundreds of knights died, contemportary sources write of 1,500 – 2,000 nobles who fell. The Battle of Morgarten is an often cited example of "peasants" annihilating an army of knights, but it wasn't the first such incident; cf. Battle of Courtrai or Battle of Bannockburn. See e.g. Öchsli, W.: Die Anfänge der Schweizerischen Eidgenossenschaft, pp. 338ff; Zürich, 1891 for an extended battle description. Also see Rogers, C. J.: The Military Revolutions of the Hundred Years' War, in The Journal of Military History, vol. 57 (1993); or Bachrach, B. S.: Caballus et Caballarius in Medieval Warfare, from The Study of Chivalry: Resources and Approaches (1988).
  • Discuss the concept of a Letzi (called Letze is Austria): typically wooden fortifications blocking a whole valley. At Morgarten for example, the Swiss blocked one of the two routes from Zug to Schwyz by such a Letzi: they constructed a 12-foot high palisade (with watchtowers, IIRC). The Habsburg forces were thus more or less forced to take the way over Morgarten... Other battles with Letzis: Battle of Frastanz and Battle of Calven in the Swabian War; in both cases, the Habsburg forces employed the Letzi blockade tactics, which the Swiss overcame by bypassing the fortifications and attacking from over the mountains. See e.g. Illi, M.: Letzi in German, French and Italian in the online Historical Dictionary of Switzerland. Version of 2006-08-31..
  • In the Burgundy Wars, the tactics of the long pike (some 6m long, longer than those employed by other footsoldiers) came to bear. 6-men deep (I think, would have to verify) phalanx able to withstand cavalry attacks.
    Four men deep. Six was a development adopted later by the Landsknechte. See Mertens (ref given below).
  • Also need to discuss the practice of not taking prisoners: any wounded enemys were mercilessly killed on the battlefield. This practice is often seen as specific to the "barbarian Swiss", but that's actually untrue; other groups also massacred their enemies (c.f. Armagnacs!). The point here is that all these early modern armies had no resources to feed prisoners, in fact, the armies themselves often lived off the land. Even only quartering a regiment was a heavy economic burden for the local people in the towns and villages. (Not to speak of the social conflicts that could develop when a bunch of rough soldiers had to share quarters with the general population...) Prisoners were taken generally only if they could be exchanged later against high ransoms: enemy leaders or nobles.
  • Swabian War: several factors contributed to the Swiss victory: the enemy command was divided: Maximilian's strategic objective was the control of the Umbrail pass in the southern Grisons, whereas the Swabian counts preferred to strike in the north. Maximilian's troops also had longer ways to get from Constance to Val Müstair (around Lake Constance, to Feldkirch, over the Arlberg or through the Montafon valley to Landeck, over the Reschenpass to the Vinschgau), as the Swiss controlled all the territory from south of Lake Constance to the Grisons. And finally, many Swabian troops were inexperienced, recruited from simple peasants, and often afraid of the Swiss (c.f. Battle of Schwaderloh: they panicked already at the Swiss drum sound), who had a reputation as very good soldiers indeed since the Burgundy Wars. Habsburg troops also didn't use their artillery very well yet.
  • Needs to discuss the decline of the Swiss phalanx tactics: how the advent of artillery, handguns, and the French new cavalry made this style of battle obsolete. Landsknechte (initially trained by Swiss captains!) win several battles against the Swiss in the Italian Wars. Marignano was decided ultimately by the French cavalry (and the fact that about half of the Swiss troops had retreated from Milan back to Berne some days before the battle). See e.g. Mertens, P.: Schweizerische Reisläufer – deutsche Landsknechte: eine mörderische Rivalität, pp. 69 – 86 in Fuhrer, H. R.; Eyer, R.-P. (eds.): Schweizer in "Fremden Diensten", NZZ Verlag, Zürich 2006; ISBN 3-03823-196-7.
  • "they only continued to fight in the service of the Royal French army" (after Marignano, as the article currently claims) needs to be verified. I don't think they fought exclusively for the French, there were at least Guard regiments elsewhere, and I'm pretty sure Swiss mercenaries fought in other armies, too.
    Update: yes, only France is humbug. Swiss mercenaries fought for many other powers from Spain to Sweden, from Naples to Russia, with or without capitulations. See Henry, Ph.: Fremde Dienste - 2.2. Die Hauptetappen der Entwicklung ("Development of the 'foreign service'") in German, French and Italian in the online Historical Dictionary of Switzerland. Version of 2005-04-01., or also Fuhrer, H. R.; Eyer, R.-P.: Grundzüge und Entwicklung des Söldnerwesens in der Eidgenossenschaft vom 14. bis zum 16. Jahrhundert ("Basics and development of the Swiss mercenary services from the 14th to the 16th century"); pp. 49 – 68 in Fuher/Eyer (eds.): Schweizer in "Fremden Diensten", NZZ Verlag, Zürich 2006; ISBN 3-03823-196-7. On the Papal Swiss Guard, also see Beck-von Büren, R.: Päpstliche Schweizergarde in German, French and Italian in the online Historical Dictionary of Switzerland. Version of 2003-05-16.
  • The Defensional of Wil (1647) in the Thirty Years' War needs to be discussed, and also the role of the Swiss during that conflict in general. See Reformation in Switzerland#Thirty Years' War. See also de Montmollin, B.: Defensionalordnungen in German, French and Italian in the online Historical Dictionary of Switzerland. Version of 2004-05-12..
  • There was no such thing as a united "Swiss army" until 1848. Even in 1871, when the army of Charles Denis Bourbaki was disarmed upon their entry to Switzerland at Les Verrières, there were no common uniforms. (See [3] for a mention of this, but we'd need a better source than this newspaper article. Incidentally, this newspaper article writes about 87,000 soldiers, whereas our article on Bourbaki mentions 84,000...) On the fate of Bourbaki's army, see e.g. de Weck, H.: Bourbaki's army in German, French and Italian in the online Historical Dictionary of Switzerland., also mentioning 87,000 soldiers and 12,000 horses. I'll go fix that number over there.
  • Réduit doctrine during WWII.
  • Should discuss the structure of the army: militia, a general only in times of war.
  • Should briefly discuss the Red Cross, Frontier service at the border of North and South Korea, "Blue Helmet" (UN) operations in the Kosovo.
  • Post-WWII: GSOA (a group that launched initiative to abolish the army, failed with about 30% yes vs. 70% no votes). "Armee 2000" (or whatever it's called: cutting costs by reducing the number of men in service). Women in the armed forces. Discussions about professionalization. Durchdiener.

All right; I know, this has lots of gaps, but maybe it is helpful as pointers for correcting and expanding this article. Lupo 08:54, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

BTW: Sorry that most of these links are in German language only... I'm sure with the leads given someone from the English-speaking world can dig up useful English-language references for all these topics. Lupo 16:47, 9 October 2006 (UTC)