Talk:Military brat (U.S. subculture)/Archive 4

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[edit] Category:Military brat

Well, somebody beat me to the category of military brat, but I went through last night and updated all of the brats on the List of famous military brats to have the category on their page. Well, the category has already been nominated for deletion. The reasoning is because it is a "non-neutral" term and parental occupation is irrelevant. Thus, I'm letting people who have contributed to the Military brat article know so that they can support the category. Here is the link to the discussion [1] Balloonman 20:13, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] simply a "brat"

I deleted (or simply a "brat"), since brat has its own meaning in English going far back. As the Oxford English dictionary says " ‘A child, so called in contempt’ In 16th and 17th c. sometimes used without contempt, though nearly always implying insignificance; the phrase beggar's brat has been common from the first." The word was probably derived from the word brat used for the coarse, makeshift tunic that was a begger child's only clothing. --Bejnar 22:30, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Brat may be used by military brats among themselves and to others as synonymous with military brat, but the word has a rich current usage, as well as its historical ones, having nothing to do with military brats. --Bejnar 22:40, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
    • But in this context, it has nothing to do with spoiled brat. In this context it has a completely different meaning... and needs to be evaluated upon that meaning. It is the term used by the described community. And it is important to point out that the term has a different understanding when used in this context.Balloonman 23:46, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image sources?

Some images are poorly sourced, and should have the exact link from which they were taken, especially on the various .mil sites, like this:

Image:Military Brat in Pilot's outfit.jpg - is that a child of a member of the armed forces? All I see is a kid in pilot's gear.

Also, it's not clear why Tiger Woods's photo is included, unless mention is made that he is a "military brat" by the defninition given in this article. Alcarillo 00:30, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm removing Tiger's picture as it doesn't fit the generally accepted definition. I've seen sources citing him as a brat, for example [2], but his father may have retired before he was born. As for the rest, I'll try to look them up.Balloonman 22:19, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Nice addition of Schwartzkopf with caption. Alcarillo 00:15, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Updated all pictures.Balloonman 23:13, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Note that in the source text to this picture: Image:Military Brat in Pilot's outfit.jpg, there's no indication that the subject is a military brat. Alcarillo 00:07, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Also, while they're fantastic photos, I don't think Image:Maj Cornell Payne.jpg and Image:Married couple renews their vows.jpg belong in the article. They depict armed forces members and their spouses. No children in the shot, therefore, no military brats. Alcarillo 00:15, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Fixed... thanks for the observations. Actually the kid in the pilots outfit does indicate airforce brat...Balloonman 00:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Is it a patch on the uniform or something? I can't quite make out the details of the various patches -- one on each breast and a shoulder patch. If so, it would be cool to include an image of the patch, if possible, or some other AFB insignia. The only thing I could find was this [3]. Alcarillo 15:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
There is a whole line of jewelry and clothing available for brats.... when I first started working on this article, it was almost an advertisement for one company selling said articles... look at a version from September/October and it'll give ya a link ;-)Balloonman 16:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Q&D feedback

Personally, I disagree with the title and dab page usage. I would place the article at Military brat. Early in the article I would make clear that this is a U.S. Subculture usage if that is the case. The current title suggest that there are other articles that exist or that are anticipated that would properly be titled Military brat and that in order to disambiguate all such articles, all except for the article relating to the primary usage (if one exists) have parenthetical disambiguating names. In this case, I do not believe any other articles are anticipated that would properly bear the title Military brat and if any are anticipated I believe the current one is far and away the primary article (see WP:NAME). Think about what people are looking for when they type the term Military brat in article space. They are looking for the article you have created. So put it there. Put the dab page see also stuff on the article page in a see also section.

2nd Para. you say "Despite being used in many countries...." Do you mean despite being used by the armies of many countries or by US military personel located in many countries.

Linguistic reclamation: State whether the attempt makes it O.K. for a non-military citizen to call a MB an MB. If you call me a Nigger it would be different than if my best friend called me "My Nigga", especially if he or she were also African American. Rephrase last sentences or add to them in Research section to make this clear.

How do you define better behaved (lower incidence of criminal arrest, fewer domestic disputes, higher propensity to say thank you)?

I admit I skimmed the article quickly. Did you say whether MBs have a higher propensity to have military careers?

You have a lot of MB stats. Do you have stats on the implications of having parents KIAed, WIAed, or MIA? I see a few lines about KIA parents. How are such MBs affected in terms of education, career marriage, criminal record, likelyhood of becoming a military?

Do you have feeder stats? I hear a lot of Military school students become law enforcement officers. TonyTheTiger 21:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Excellent feedback, thanks Tony. I'll definately try to incorporate it into the article. To answer your questions:
  • The name is something that nobody likes. It is something that has been discussed here and elsewhere... it was from the FAC and Military Peer Review that it got the (U.S. subculture) add on... but I'm not sure how to proceed.
  • British and Canadian military brats are self identified as "brats." It isn't just US servicepeople calling the children of other servicemen brats. I've heard (but can't point to any authoritative source) that this is also the case in Australia.
  • It is acceptable for a non-brat to call a brat a brat---if the brat knows that the non-brat knows that the brat is a military brat. Wow say that five times fast... let me try that again. In my experience, if a stranger calls me a "brat" it would put me on the defensive. Being a brat, however, I would ask what they meant by the term. If they somehow knew that I was a military brat, and were using it in that context, then it becomes a compliment! It indicates that the person knows enough about me and my culture to know that it is a term of pride and endearment. If a friend refers to me as a brat, and I know that they are familiar with the phrase "Military brat," I appreciate it because it indicates an acceptance of that term (it took my wife years to accept it.) Generally, however, it is better to use the whole phrase "Military brat" the first time, then to contract it to brat, that way you clarify which meaning of "brat" you are using. I'll see if I can find something authoritative to that effect... off the top of my head, the closest I can think of is the person who didn't want to use the term in her research, but did so (reluctantly) at the request of the people she interviewed. I know that it is a term that brats take pride in... actually, I think Wertsch discusses that. So, yeah, I might be able to find something authoritative that discusses this. But I don't know if I can find anything that explicitly says that it is acceptable for non-brats to use the term.
  • Excellent point on discipline... I'll have to look that up... one thing that I plan on adding already is an expansion on behavior into their 20's/30's. A common theme in both Brat and Third Culture Kid research is that they "appear" better behaved through high school, but then go through their rebellious stages as young adults and often "experience a prolonged adolescence." But I'll review my notes/literature to see how "better disciplined" is defined. GREAT observation.
  • Military brats in the armed forces... no I don't think I mentioned that. I'll find it though and add it. Many brats do join the armed forces, but most do not make it a career. There is a high degree of "one and done." (One tour of duty and then getting out.) Now I'm wishing where I saw it... but one of the articles I read talked about how brats often have an idealistic view of the military growing up and can't stand it when reality destroys what they thought they knew. The article also discussed how brats usually have an easier time than civilians on adjusting because they know what to expect.
  • As for KIA/MIA, that is an area that is surprisingly absent in the literature. I touched upon it in one of the sections, but according to the articles I read, this has not been studied! The closest thing I found was a military psychiatrists reflecting on his personal observations of his patients--- he explicitly stated that the effects of being KIA/MIA in the military had not been studied. Again, thanks for your feedback. I really do appreciate it and will try to incorporate your questions into the article.Balloonman 22:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
  • As for feeder stats, take a look at the Third Culture Kids article, there is a little discussion there. As a rule, brats do not make it a career to be in law enforcement (although I seriously considered it several times.)Balloonman 22:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] FAC

I am about to move, so will be going on a wikibreak. But am hoping to nominate this article for FA when I come back. Any comments/reviews would be greatly appreciated.Balloonman 08:21, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dependents

An interesting article which describes (in some ways) my entire childhood (1957-1970). Luckily for me, that phase ended at age 13. I guess things have also changed in the military since I got out in 1978. In the pre-and immediately post-Vietnam Army, dependents (no one called them brats, whether from the inside or the outside) were best seen and then forgotten. Although at the time life seemed good (at least to a kid), it was only later that I realized just how poorly the military took care of its own (at least the enlisted personnel). Housing was atrocious, schools overcrowded, pay was low, and relations with the outside community were nil. The longest we ever stayed in one spot was four years. But when you are a kid, none of this really sinks in or matters.

I also did not realize just how incredibly lucky I was in having the parents that I did (a southerner who never got past his GED and the daughter of a farmer). By age 16 I had long hair, played in a rock band, and had anti-war posters hanging on my wall (including a long-lost poster of Mao that I still miss) and not a single peep out of my parents. They encouraged my differences (but then again my dad was out of the service and working for the Justice Department by then) and I reciprocated by staying out of trouble. Although times have changed, a lot of the article rings true. Keep up the good work. RM Gillespie 09:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)