Talk:Mileva Marić

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[edit] Old discussion about copyvio (I think)

don't know what the previous user was talking about, perhaps it was a mistake?

text is not the same as the webpage content, verify for yourselves

regards

Igor

I've checked. Large parts of it are identical. -- Oliver P. 16:47, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It's true, I unknowingly updated this page from deleted content. I didn't know there was controversy over it and found it odd how it existed but wasn't being linked. Duh. I did edit various portions but is largely the original. My b. I forgot to login too. Dtgm

Oh, I see. Thanks for explaining! I suppose that means I can delete it again, then. -- Oliver P. 17:23, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

NO! lol, yes, yes you may. Dtgm

I assume by 'theory of heat' what is really meant is thermodynamics. /Eckesicle

I'm restoring this talk page just on the off-chance that whoever has restored Mileva Maric has permission to do so. This way they can also see the previous discussion on the subject, for what it's worth. The webpage being talked about is this one. -- Oliver P. 02:21, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Can someone give us some detail about the "psychotic" son? RickK 02:52, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

His name was Eduard: he died in 1965 at a psychiatric hospital in Burglölzli. -- Someone else 02:56, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

What's the objection to "illegitimate"? If in fact she was adopted rather than died, it would presumably be the reason why. -- Someone else 03:07, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

"Illegitimate" puts an undeserved onus upon the child. Her parents' relationship may have been "illegitimate", but the daughter at worst can be said to have been "born out of wedlock". RickK 03:10, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I agree that "illegitimate" has a negative connotation by today's standards which the child does not deserve. But I believe that it generally refers more to a child who's father is unknown or not acknowledged. In this case, the parents did get married, and, although both Albert and Mileva apparently never again spoke of Lieserl, she was not exactly "unacknowledged" or denied. They seem to have just let the matter drop (as suspicious as that sounds. We'll most likely never know the details of the arrangement unless more correspondence is found)...Anyway, "born out of wedlock" is probably the better expression in this case...Engr105th 20:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

There are still odd snatches that remain in this article from the original webpage. How paranoid about copyright are we supposed to be? The phrase "Einstein's companion, colleague and confidante" might be recognisable to the original author. And similarly for "Mileva entered Einstein's life in a crucial period of his scientific achievements". And so on. See this diff, which shows the changes between the last version that I considered worrying enough to replace with the "possible copyright infringement" notice and the current version. -- Oliver P. 23:58, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Tesla acquaintance

I have removed the phrase "During her early years at university, she became an aquaitance of Nikola Tesla as a mathematics student." As Tesla was living and working in the United States since 1884, when Mileva was only 9 years old, I find it unlikely that she was his acquaintance. Perhaps she was simply acquainted with his work? I suppose it is possible she met him while he returned to Serbia to visit family but I cannot find any evidence this is so. If I am wrong, please correct me and attribute this information.

[edit] Prize money

I always heard that he gave her half the nobel prize money, which was in the divorce settlement. / Habj 16:27, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Lets find a way to properly put this information in the article without being too POV

Re the above material:

1. One item suggests that a brief, rather naive, report from Maric to Einstein of one lecture given by Lenard in Heidelberg in 1897 was relevant to Einstein's paper 1905 paper on Brownian motion. This is scientific nonsense. Maric's attendance on the course given by Lenard in 1897-98 has also been presented as evidence she made contributions to his 1905 photoelectric paper. When the 'evidence' is as woolly (or, as in this case, devoid of substantive content) as in this "controversy", just about anything can be claimed – and has been.

2. "After they married, Mileva sacrificed her professional goals, helping Einstein's career instead." Mileva didn't have any professional goals by then in the sense implied, i.e., of being a professional physicist. She had failed her Diploma exam twice, and her aspiration had been reduced to considering applying for a post as a librarian at the Zurich Polytechnic (1900), or as a high school teacher (1901). (Her main aspiration by then was to marry Einstein. To a friend in 1900: "Albert is soon to leave here, and is taking with him half my life." To Einstein in 1901: "How beautiful the world will look when I'm your little wife, you'll see.")

3. "Mileva entered Einstein's life in a crucial period of his scientific achievements." The facts are that the pair met at the start of their four-year course at the Zurich Polytechnic, when Einstein was 17 years old.

4. The view of John Stachel, "keeper of Albert's letters" (i.e., General Editor of Einstein's Collected Papers), is set against the views of Evan Harris Walker and a couple of others'. A perusal of Walker's claims reveal him to be someone with a propensity to present material in a tendentiously distorted fashion. See, for example, his two letters to "Physics Today" in February 1989: http://philoscience.unibe.ch/lehre/winter99/einstein/Walker_Stachel.pdf

5. It is not the case that "Biographer Abram Joffe claims to have seen an original manuscript for the theory of relativity which was signed, "Einstein-Maric". The original document shows that Joffe made no such claim.

Re the PBS "Einstein's Wife" link below. This website must hold some kind of record for the greatest number of false or tendentiously misleading assertions. http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/17/4/2/1

John Stachel comprehensively refutes the claims about Mileva Maric's having made a substantive contribution to Einstein's achievements in physics in two articles reprinted in:

Stachel, J. (2002). Einstein from 'B' to 'Z'. Boston: Bïrkhauser, pp. 26-38; 39-55.

Stachel totally demolishes all the claims made about the Soviet scientist Joffe having seen Mileva's name on the manuscripts of the 1905 papers in an Appendix to the Introduction to:

Stachel, J (ed.) (2005). Einstein's Miraculous Year: Five Papers That Changed the Face of Physics. Princeton, pp. liv-lxxii.

References:

Stachel, J. et al (eds.) (1987): The Collected Papers of Albert Einstein: Volume 1. (With English commentary).

Havas, P. (ed.) (1987): The Collected Papers of Albert Einstein: Volume 1 (English translation).

Popovic, M. (ed.) (2003): In Albert's Shadow: The Life and Letters of Mileva Maric.

Martinez, A: "Handling Evidence in History: The Case of Einstein's Wife," in School Science Review (March 2005).

--- According to a BBC News publication today, there comes the question if Mileva got any money at all? "Despite reports that Einstein transferred the Nobel Prize money directly to Switzerland following a divorce agreement in which it was assigned to his first wife, Mileva, the letters reveal he instead invested the major part of it in the US, where he settled after being driven out of Nazi Germany. Much of the money was later lost in the Depression." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5168002.stm

According to the AP report in July 2006, under the terms of the divorce agreement the Nobel Prize money was supposed to have been deposited in a Swiss bank and Mileva was to draw on the interest. A spokeswoman at the Albert Einstein Archives stated that "ultimately he paid her more money than he received from the prize". http://www.wtop.com/?nid=105&sid=845293

Under the "Timeline" topic (1921), it states Mileva used the Nobel prize money for care for son Eduard...I have read (one source, I believe is "Einstein: His Life and Universe") that Mileva invested the prize money in a set of apartment building(s) in Switzerland. Obviously, she would have used some of her income - from whatever source - to support the children. But the way the "Timeline" reads in the Wiki article it sounds like she was forced by circumstances to spend it on care for their mentally ill child.
If she in fact invested in real estate, then the 1921 "Timeline" remark is not accurate....Engr105th 18:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What's he quoting?

I almost stated that as "what's he smoking"? This article is one of the more well-written dramatic texts I've seen on Wikipedia - but that's about all that is good about it. It looks as if it's copied more or less verbatim from some weekend tabloid's account of Einstein's wife - complete with speculation about wife-beatings, gang-rapes, hidden money being burned.... and no inline sources for any of it, or any sign of critical evaluation, either in the source or by the editor. Yes, this needs attention. --Alvestrand 08:23, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Google's good at this sort of thing. It's the PBS documentary. Copyvio? --Alvestrand 08:27, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

WP:BB - I deleted the PBS documentary; the article has information without it.

[edit] Answer to prize money

You give the answer to your question yourself. The article you cite for reference tells us that Mileva Maric received the entire prize money. I quote your reference:

"See, for example, his two letters to "Physics Today" in February 1989: http://philoscience.unibe.ch/lehre/winter99/einstein/Walker_Stachel.pdf "

-- cellulesolaire 13:50, 27 Jan 2006

Well, it dosnt means that she made the entire work,half of the work or even part of the work...great physicans which had a scientific contacts with Einstein have reject any kind of this arrguments . there is a wishful thinking that Mileva is the real mother of the works attributed to Albert.but this is truely far from the facts and the motivs for such of thinking are varinig from a need to belive in this kind of theories trough femenisem and ending with Jewish haterd.--Gilisa 08:58, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] a refrence to be trusted?

the refrence cited for the pro and contras on the origin of the papers around 1905 seems to me not very trustworthy ( http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/17/4/2/1 )

A US person talking about a russian physicist, about books in russian. The "Einstein Scolar" has probably not read the original in russian, he depended on the translation of Albert Einstein: The Incorrigible Plagiarist by Christopher J Bjerknes (2002, XTX Inc). Of course, Alberto Martinez claimes to have come up (by magic?) with the exact same translation. But is that true?

The following book states that A.Joffe has seen the original article, signed by Einstein-Marity. Danin and Joffe speak russian. Daniil Semenovi Danin: Neizbezhnost´ strannogo mira, Gosudarstvenaja biblioteka SSSR, Moskva 1962.

A.Joffe Writes himself in his book, that he had seen the original article, signed by Einstein-Marity. the book only exists in russian, as far as i know:

" Pamjati Ejnâtejna / Ejnâtejn i sovremennaja �zika " , Gosudarstvenoe izdatel stvo techni esko-teoreti eskoj literatury, Moskva written in 1956, a year after Einsteins death.

Finally, a scolar from eastern europe searches for the evidence and describes very precisely in her book, who has said what, where, when and how. The scolar reads russian and contacted family members of both Mileva Maric and Einstein. The book states clearly that the the original article was signed Einstein-Marity. Refrences are clearly cited. The english version of the book probably exists too, here the german details:

Desanka Trbuhovic-Gjuric: Im Schatten Albert Einsteins. Das tragische Leben der Mileva Einstein-Maric, Bern und Stuttgart (Paul Haupt) 2. Auflage 1983; 4. Auflage 1988. - Zitate im Text nach der 2. Auflage.

How can a so called "Einstein Scolar" argue on reports on TV? Cite incorrect facts (without commenting) about Swiss traditions, where men should add their spouse's name to their own name after marriage? make statements about other authors, whose books he has not read correctely? or whose book he could not read? I would expect some more detailed research of a scolar, or suggest that we do not use his article as a base for a serious encyclopedia.

Cellulesolaire 07:32, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I beg to differ with "Cellosolaire", on the following grounds. Bjerknes' translation shows that Joffe did not in 1955 claim to have seen the original papers, and that he attributed the three most celebrated 1905 papers to one author, who "was a bureaucrat at the Patent Office in Bern" – namely Albert Einstein:

"For Physics, and especially for the Physics of my generation -- that of Einstein's contemporaries, Einstein’s entrance into the arena of science is unforgettable. In 1905, three articles appeared in the 'Annalen der Physik', which began three very important branches of 20th Century Physics. Those were the theory of Brownian movement, the theory of the photoelectric effect and the theory of relativity. The author of these articles – an unknown person at that time, was a bureaucrat at the Patent Office in Bern, Einstein-Marity (Marity – the maiden name of his wife, which by Swiss custom is added to the husband's family name)."

Note that Bjerknes provides the original Russian text: http://home.comcast.net/~xtxinc/Response.htm

Likewise, Bjernes' translation of the words of Danin in 1962 shows that Danin also attributed the 1905 articles to a "a third class engineering expert in the Swiss Patent Office":

"The unsuccessful teacher, who, in search of a reasonable income, had become a third class engineering expert in the Swiss Patent Office, this yet completely unknown theoretician in 1905 published three articles in the same volume of the famous 'Annalen der Physik' signed 'Einstein-Marity' (or Maric – which was his first wife's family name)."

Danin was a popular science writer, and his writing that the 1905 articles were "signed" 'Einstein-Marity' is evidently a misreading of Joffe's report. (Joffe says nothing about any signature.) See: http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/articleprint.php?num=183

Incidentally, Bjerknes posts on a Holocaust denier website, and his criticisms of Einstein are far from disinterested: http://www.codoh.com/newsite/articles/bjerkneschristopher/adoc01a.html

"Cellusolaire" writes that in Desanka Trbuhovic-Gjuric's book "Im Schatten Albert Einsteins. Das tragische Leben der Mileva Einstein-Maric" references are clearly cited. The contrary is the case. The book is almost entirely without references, and many of her contentions are based on unverifiable third or fourth hand reports by Maric family members and friends obtained more than fifty years after the events in question.

"Cellulesolaire" writes that Trbuhovic-Gjuric's book clearly states that the original article was signed Einstein-Marity. More precisely, Trbuhovic-Gjuric writes that Joffe stated that the three celebrated 1905 articles were signed in the original "Einstein-Maric", whereas the above translation shows that Joffe does not claim to have seen the original papers. (Trbuhovic-Gjuric, 1983, p. 79; Trbuhovic-Gjuric, "Mileva Einstein: Une Vie" [French translation], 1991, p. 111)

As John Stachel writes at the end of his meticulously detailed examination of the issue in "Einstein's Miraculous Year" (Princeton University Press, 2005, pp. liv-lxxii): "We have seen that, in order to give credence to Trbuhovic-Gjuric's claims, we are forced to pile one improbability upon another..." Esterson 10:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Stachel also asks pertinently: "How do we pass from these claims - that the 1905 papers had *one* signature (Einstein-Marity) - to the claims that this *one* signature represents *two* authors?

Esterson 19:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

the link below was delete as it contain racist arguments.for my opinion,much of the unsupported claims that Einstein work was helpd or done by mileva coming from the same state of mind , but with a more sophisticated appearance.

[edit] Introduction to reconsider

The introduction of the article says: Mileva Marić (19 December 1875 – 4 August 1948; Serbian Cyrillic: Милева Марић) was a Serbian mathematician, and Albert Einstein's first wife.

• Anybody knows what she considered herself to be?

Born in Titlis, Serbia, yes. But she married Einstein, which means she changed her nationality. Einstein was first German, later refused this nationality, became Swiss, and eventually added the US citicenship. If we have no refrences, I think we should drop the nationality.

• Mileva Maric is the maiden name, but this woman got married.

The correct name then would be Mileva Einstein-Maric.

• The article says she was a mathematician only. How come then, she studied physics at ETHZ? She was a physician and mathematician.

• I think “subject to many polemics” is a very strong choice of word. Yes, arguments between experts are going on. But this is normal for important questions.

• ”the degree of her participation to his discoveries” suggests that he discovered, she participated. The actual discussion however is: who was the original author of the published articles in 1905. I suggest to replace “discoveries” by “publications”.

I propose to change the introduction to something like:

Mileva Einstein-Marić (Serbian Cyrillic: Милева Марић; 19 December 1875, Titlis/Serbia – 4 August 1948, Zurich/Switzerland) was a mathematician and physician. She was Einstein's first wife and former classmate at University. The exact degree of her participation in his publications is up to present day unknown and is subject of discussion.

Cellulesolaire 02:52, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I like your paragraph. Notes on English:

• physician -> physicist. A physician is a doctor.
• delete "former" before "classmate". That only makes sense when talking in the present tense.
• "up to present day unknown and is subject of discussion" -> "is unknown and a subject of discussion"

Also use the more-or-less standard format for intro line: name (cyrillic) (birth – death) was blablabla

about content - I wonder whether she could be considered a mathematician and a physicist when she did not finish her degree and never held a job where she practiced those jobs. But it's probably reasonable to say it this way.

Makes sense? --Alvestrand 04:15, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Was she a mathematician at all? That is , the math she took all the physics students took. She was in the physics program. She was a physicist, just without completing the PhD. Is it not so? --GangofOne 06:31, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

She gave up her plan to write a PhD thesis on heat conduction in 1901 after failing, for the second time, the Zurich Polytechnic diploma for teaching physics and mathematics in secondary school. Esterson 11:16, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

To whoever is in charge of editing the Mileva Maric webpage:

Mileva Maric twice failed her Zurich Polytechnic diploma exam for teaching physics and mathematics in secondary school because of her very low grade in the mathematics component, the theory of functions, which is fundamental to any advanced mathematical work. There is no evidence that she ever produced any original work in mathematics, or studied at a higher level than required for this diploma course (which she failed). By what criterion is she called a "Serbian mathematician" in the Introduction? The claim is almost entirely based on an article that is a travesty of scholarship, "Mileva Einstein-Maric: The Woman Who Did Einstein's Mathematics", by Senta Troemel-Ploetz. I have written an article that exposes Troemel-Ploetz's claims as completely unsustainable, her "scholarship" unworthy of the term, and her knowledge of Einstein's achievements close to zero: http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/articleprint.php?num=218

To whoever is in charge of editing this website. Please examine the article I have just cited, note that while Maric obtained excellent grades on graduating from high school her record in mathematics at Zurich Polytechnic was mediocre, and consider whether there is any ground whatever to describe her as a "mathematician". The issue here is essentially this: Should Wikipedia entries be the playground for ideologically motivated speculations or be based on solid evidence? If the latter (as of course it should be), then Maric should not be described as a mathematician.

N.B. If you go to the PBS "Einstein’s Wife" website you will see the editor has added a note to the home page stating the website is under review. If you then click the link to the Ombudsman’s report you will see why this is so:

http://www.pbs.org/opb/einsteinswife/

http://www.pbs.org/ombudsman/2006/12/einsteins_wife_the_relative_motion_of_facts.html

Esterson 15:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I read thru the "einsteinswife' and 'ombudsman' links above. Thanks to Esterson for posting that...These opinions seem to come and go with the tide, and the tide now seems to swing away from the possibility that Mileva was significantly involved in Einstein's major breakthrough work. I believe the Wiki article ought to reflect that. There is simply no hard evidence that Mileva was ever the scientist (genius) that Albert was....Engr105th 01:38, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, the information on Wikipedia should not depend on "the tide", but on documented evidence. Contrary to the evidence-free claims to be found on numerous websites, there is no serious evidence that Marić made any contribution at all to physics. This has now been reflected in this Wikipedia entry, but there still remain significant errors in the introduction, which I don't know how to amend.

(i) "Mileva Marić was a Serbian inventor, scientist and also Albert Einstein's first wife…"

Marić was not a "scientist". She twice failed the Zurich Polytechnic diploma exam for teaching physics and mathematics in secondary school. There is not a single piece of documentary evidence for any ideas of her own in physics; no articles, nothing in any letters, no mention of any specific ideas on physics in letters by other people. Nor does the supposed 'evidence' that she collaborated with Einstein on his early papers withstand scholarly scrutiny. There are no grounds on which a failed University student with no documented scientific work should be described as a "scientist".

(ii) Marić was not an "inventor". The claim to this effect is contained in the deeply-flawed biography of Marić by Desanka Trbuhović-Gjurić, and uncritically recycled in the even more deeply-flawed 1990 article by Senta Troemel-Ploetz, "Mileva Einstein-Marić: The Woman Who Did Einstein's Mathematics". I have examined the claim and found it to be without substance, as I recount in the fourth paragraph after the sub-heading "Senta Troemel-Ploetz's Claims" in my article Mileva Marić: Einstein's Wife": http://www.esterson.org/milevamaric.htm

To provide evidence of the value of my scholarship on these matters, I quote comments by specialists in the field: From John Stachel, physicist, historian of physics, founding editor of the Albert Einstein Collected Papers, 13 October 2007: "Once again the Einstein-scholars community in general, and I personally in particular, are heavily in debt to you for your spirited and accurate defense of our work." From Gerald Holton, physicist and historian of physics, 2 November 2007: "Thank you for your important work and persistence."

I therefore propose the first sentence in the introduction be amended to read:

"Mileva Marić (....) was the Serbian-born first wife (1903-1919) of Albert Einstein, and mother of three children with him."

I also propose that the third sentence in the introduction be amended. The words "the exact degree" [of her participation in his discoveries is uncertain] imply there was *some" participation, for which there is no documented evidence, while there is compelling evidence to the contrary. I therefore propose the sentence should read:

"There are some claims that she may have contributed to Einstein's early research, but scholarly scrutiny of these claims indicates that they cannot be substantiated." Esterson (talk) 09:01, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I have now seen how to amend the introduction, and have done so. I have also changed the inaccurate entry for Occupation to the more correct one of "Occasional teacher". (Marić did some teaching after she ceased to care full-time for her children.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Esterson (talk • contribs) 09:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I note that under "infobox person" is: | website = http://www.pbs.org/opb/einsteinswife/

This PBS website, even as recently re-written, is a travesty of the documentary record. See: http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/articleprint.php?num=290 http://www.esterson.org/einsteinwife3.htm

I therefore propose it be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Esterson (talk • contribs) 09:17, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Divorce

Hi, one thing I think the article should include is some information on the background to the divorce, assuming this is known 82.69.28.55 23:07, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Any material on Maric's life following the divorce would also be interesting. PedEye1 01:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 09:59, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Boskovic

I have removed the following text from the intro:

Yet as a Serbian she was quite familiar with Roger Joseph Boscovich's work, who pioneered the doctrine of point atoms and the theories of the relativity of space and time- note however that Boscovich's works are unknown since up to 1800 and there is evidence that Western scholars would have been unfamiliar with any of Boscovich's works. The Boscovichian point-atoms, or atomic theory and his theory on the relativity of space and time were well known from 1770 through the early 1800's and directly or indirectly influenced the development of many branches of physics, chemistry, and mathematical physics including current particle theory. Roger Boscovich's kinematic atomic theory is easy to understand in the present day, thanks to the works of Einstein, Faraday, Kelvin, Eddington, Milne, Bohr, and J.J. Thomson, among others.

It is not clear to me that this would be relevant even if documented, and as it stands, it's not documented at all. Please provide sources. And unless it's proved to be really core to her life, it should not be in the intro. --Alvestrand (talk) 20:26, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

so much of this article is bullsh-- I don't understand how it isn't labeled as controversial (at least) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.96.83.183 (talk) 22:19, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Religion

I am removing the “Jewish” identification. According to http://www.pbs.org/opb/einsteinswife/milevastory/early.htm she was not Jewish. --teb728 t c 09:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Residence

What is the source for these periods associated with the various nations she resided? I think she lived in Switzerland much longer than shown and only for a relative short period of time in Germany, certainly dying in Switzerland not Sweden. 67.101.249.26 (talk) 20:37, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Mileva Maric (nee Einstein).jpg

Mileva's image has been tagged with {{di-no source}}, but it matches the photograph dated 1896 used in Highfield and Carter's 1993 book "The Private Lives of Einstein" (ISBN 0-571-17170-2), between pages 172 and 173. Here is the caption from that book:

• Mileva Marić in 1896, aged twenty-one, when she went to Switzerland, first to study medecine at Zurich University and then to the Federal Polytechnic School.

The book acknowledges the image source as Schweizerische Landesbibliothek Bern. That places the date of the photograph as 1896, but I guess the location was either Serbia or Switzerland (Mileva started in Zurich in the summer of 1896). I don't know if this helps determine whether the image is public domain or not, since the photographer is unknown. -84.222.0.142 (talk) 13:58, 28 April 2008 (UTC)