Talk:Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21

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[edit] Name that plane

Is this a Mig-21?

Image:Mig21.JPG

Looks like a Mig-21F or a Chinese J-7 Mmartins 04:50, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC) that is a MIG-21, you can tell by the star on the tail, im a plane expert (sort of) Tu-49 16:04, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crashes

I would like a check on the 250 crashes number (for example Warbirds of India gives a figure of 103 for Mig-21 crashes.

'MiG -21' safest flying machines 16 Aug 2007, 0123 hrs IST,Varun Chadha,TNN

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CHANDIGARH: MiG-21 aircraft, once known as 'flying coffins', are now not only among the safest flying machines, but are more lethal for the enemy. Number of mid-air crashes is now almost zero since these have been upgraded. And induction of a training schedule for pilots has brought down human error while manoeuvring.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Chandigarh/MiG_-21_safest_flying_machines/articleshow/2283667.cms

This year, two combat aircraft have crashed, but none of them is MiG-21 Bison, the upgraded version of old MiG-21. IAF officers told TOI , "The MiGs are more safer than ever before. Only four MiG-21 Bison aircraft have crashed since their induction in 2002. IAF plans to fly the Bisons - which it describes as an almost brand new fighter, with latest avionics, improved gearboxes and other advanced systems - till 2017."

The latest technology in aviation registers 0.5 accidents every 10,000 hours of flying and the old technology touches 1.75 crashes in similar number of flying hours.

MiG-21 Type 75, MiG-21 Type 93, and MiG-21 Bis have been upgraded to MiG-21 Bison with altogether new avionics and on-board electronic systems apart from night-vision devices and mid-air refuelling capabilities, making it more competitive than American F-16 Fighting Falcons, sources in Western Air Command added.

Introduction of new training schedule for pilots to improve man-machine relationship has helped bring down human errors.

"The main reasons for aircraft accidents are human error and technical defect. A continuous and multi-faceted effort is always underway in the IAF to enhance and upgrade flight safety. Measures to enhance the quality of training to improve the skill levels, ability to exercise sound judgement and situational awareness of pilots are being pursued," sources said.

Also constant interaction with Original Equipment Manufactures (OEMs), both indigenous and foreign, is also maintained to overcome the technical defects of the aircraft. 81.86.144.210 06:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MIG-21-2000

MIG-21-2000 is an upgrade package not an aircraft on itself (anon)

just like MiG-21-93 is. --jno 12:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Operated by USA?

It says that it was in the operators section, but does anyone have proof? 71.19.6.20 02:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed pending confirmation. The USA and allies did get their hands on a one or two, er, "borrowed" ones during the Cold War and flew them for evaluation purposes[1], [2], but they certainly didn't operate them as regular combat planes. I don't think they ever bought any as aggressor planes, either, though they did have plans to use MiG-29s in this role after the end of the Cold War.
Also, there are a number of MiG-21's in private hands around the world as well; I'm sure there's probably a number of them in flying condition in the US as well. --Robert Merkel 06:53, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I thought the USAF 477th Test Squadron, known as the "Red Hats", operated the MiG-21 out of Groom Lake, Nevada? Here's a link to a video on YouTube that I saw - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reVZ9aPYi9A. It appears to be an excerpt from a previously classified evaluation on the MiG-21. Dervish6 09:37, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes the USAF did operate Fishbeds. I'll have to dig out my copy of the magazine the pix were printed in and cite it. - Aerobird 02:13, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
In 1967 the USAF evaluated an ex-Iraq MiG 21 supplied by the Israelis under the "Have Donut" programme. Their conclusions were poor engine acceleration - difficult to maneuver below 215 knots and above 515 knots - limited to 595 knots below 16,000 feet due to severe airframe buffeting - poor visibility from canopy especially to the rear. On the positive side - hard to see at combat ranges, smokeless engine and also hydraulics less vulnerable to damage. In the context of Vietnam the MiG-21 outclassed the USAF's F-105 but not the F-4 Lynx707 (talk) 15:21, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
MiG-21 service in USAF by code YF-110, MiG-23 is YF-113. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/mig-21.htm Huyphuc1981 nb (talk) 14:35, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vietnamese Aces

Can any one confirm that NV aces preferred the MiG-17? All the evidence I've seen is that the majority of officially designated 'aces' flew MiG-21s. Zetetic Apparatchik 18:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

MiG-17 could be preferred for dogfight, while MiG-21 was much better in intercept. Now we have to check the lists of aerial victories to see which kind of battle was more often. --jno 12:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
almost aces VPAF flying in MiG-21, not is MiG-17. MiG-17 is famous because it is "out of date" in 1964, but it downed many F-4 very new. In begin of VN-War, F-4 leave dogfight abilities, that is very big mistake. 123.16.74.155 (talk) 14:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Not Much of Technical Info?

I guess we should explain about some variants adding some technical information.

[edit] Kill Record

can anyone add the kill record for the MiG-21?

what is it

i know its got a high record and it made the best aces of the US in Vietnam run like little girls when they came (sometimes) so my guess its record is highTu-49 16:08, 24 November 2006 (UTC)!

[edit] Numbers Built?

The page says the Mig 21 is the second most produced post-WW2 plane after the C-130, but less then 3000 C-130's were produced, and this is reflected in it's wiki entry, while well over 10,000 mig 21's were made.

Do we have a reference for the numbers built? Or any references for that matters as this article doesn't have any at the moment. PPGMD 02:06, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
OKB MiG: A History of the Design Bureau and Its Aircraft (1991) ISBN 0-904597-80-6 says 7,500 were built total. Phydeaux 05:23, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

its defently a high produced aircraft. # of produced is i think over 15'000 Tu-49 16:07, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The number in the History of the Design Bureau would be referring to the number produced in the USSR. Chinese J-7's would add a considerable amount to that number on their own and thats before you start adding the Eastern European manufactured ones. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.106.245.145 (talk) 08:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Design Characteristics/Purpose?

I think it would be a good idea to add a section on what this aircraft was originally designed for. I was surprised that there wasn't much information on this already, given the interesting design features on the aircraft compared to the older MiG-17/19s. I think it would be a nice addition to the article, at least. I'd imagine based on the delta wings and spike on the inlet it was sort of designed around supersonic flight but I'd like to see if there's any information about what this was supposed to be built for.

There is some useful information in the "Operational History" section about how the aircraft was/is actually used but nothing about what it was designed for. For example, look at the "Development" section for the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-17 article or the "Design characteristics" section in the F-16 article.

I may try to do this myself when I can but I figured there might be someone who knows more about these planes than I do :-)RadioYeti 17:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Operation "007"

Does anyone know the precise model that Iraqi Air Force Captain Munir Refa used to defect to Israel on August 16, 1966? Dervish6 09:47, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Redfa is reported to have defected in a MiG-21F-13 'Fishbed-C'. Delighted with the success of their intelligence operation, the Israelis gave it the "James Bond" tailcode of "007". Askari Mark | Talk 03:25, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Askari Mark! Dervish6 10:12, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Operation Bolo

i don't know if you guys looked at my article Operation Bolo yet i want to add pictures to it, but everytime i do they get thrown off if u want to look at ike feel free too Tu-49 16:06, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

I want to challenge "Over the course of the Vietnam War, between April 26 1965, and January 8, 1973, USAF F-4s and A-4s downed 68 MiG-21s." This part of the article. Not only does it not state the number of aircraft Mig-21's shot down in the Vietnam War but 68 is the number of claimed kills. Many of these kills did not occur as the Vietnamese did not lose 68 Mig-21's over the course of the Vietnam War. This is a clear bias towards US propaganda in an article completely unrelated to the US. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.245.145 (talk • contribs)

I have andded a {{citation needed}} tag to the paragraph. It's not a POV issue, but a matter of verifiable sources. If you have a verifiable source that claims the NVAF did not lose 68 MiG-21s, then please cite it. If both sources are verifiable, then we should cite them both in the article, and state that they have differing claims. As it stands, the current statement needs a source, but we can't replace it based soley on your unsourced claim either. - BillCJ 17:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
An A-4 shot down a MiG-17, not a MiG-21, and with Zuni rockets. Unless there is a recorded kill of a Fishbed by an Skyhawk then the A-4 bit should be deleted. Wikiphyte 16:00, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

since it's the MiG-21 article, the number of aircraft shot by the MiGs should be included not otherwise62.219.70.253 19:20, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, otherwise the articles do appear to show bias towards the US planes as they indicate the number of aircraft they have shot down and the non-US, the number of aircraft that have been shot!

Among the former operators is listed Algeria, the problem is that it is shown in bright red on the world map, as if it is a present operator. The map needs correction.

[edit] Operational history?

Afganistan is not in the Middle East! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.2.220.248 (talk) 16:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC).

It is by some definitions per Middle East. - BillCJ 01:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
That is a very contentious definition, especially from my Afgan friends who classify it as Central Asia! They view Middle East as Arab or Persian which they are neither. Just FYI. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.244.246.25 (talk) 14:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC).
Not really contentious; you're right, it is in central asia. Some people need to look at the map of the world. Wikiphyte 15:57, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
The term Middle East is Eurocentric. Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 clearly violates the WP policy that articles be NPOV.
How to fix it? Add a section called Afghanistan and expand it beyond one sentence.
It should also more clearly state who was flying the MiG-21s.
The Middle East section can then be renamed Arab-Israeli conflicts.
Any ideas on how to classify the one sentence re Iraq?
--Jtir 16:53, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Now this i can get behind! Far too many articles on Wikipedia, especially on non-US topics, suffer from very US-POV. As goes the MiG-15/17/19...etc and MiG Alley (Korean War article much better).
As for the MiG-21 it acheved many verified kills in Arab-Israeli wars, proved highly successful in IraqiAF/Merc hands during the Gulf (Iran-Iraq) War. Non of this included here...just a statement of how many have been shot down. If you look through these articles all US kills are just labeled '...shot down...' while non-US kills are labeled '...claimed...' with no reference to either. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.2.209.109 (talk) 11:38, 12 May 2007 (UTC).
Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-17 uses Arab-Israeli conflicts.
The section is called Operational history, yet the sub-headings are all geographical. --Jtir 17:37, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey, how could there be 68 MiG-21 kills in Vietnam? Weren't there only 16 in 'Nam? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Spacecase610 (talk • contribs) 02:04, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

That sentence has been tagged with {{fact}} since February 2007. Where did you get "16"? --Jtir 05:04, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Total MiG-21 of NVN in war time (1964-1972) less than 68 Huyphuc1981 nb (talk) 14:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Recent changes

A new editor has twice taken out the info that the plane was developed from German designs of WW2. I am disinclined to edit war over this; can anybody reference the claim?--John (talk) 00:05, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The mig 21 was based on earlier Soviet designs and nothing else, the mig 15 was pure Soviet design and not based on any German anything, the mig 15 article explains that clearly Wavesswung99 (talk) 00:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
I believe know the MiG-15 was based off German designs, but I can't find anything about the MiG-21 being based off WWII designs. JetLover (talk) (Report a mistake) 00:13, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
You are free to believe anything but you need to find sources, and if you actually read the article or read anything about the mig 15 you can see for your self Wavesswung99 (talk) 00:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
We do not use Wikipedia itself as a reference but I note that article does mention the German influence on the design of that plane. --John (talk) 00:35, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Influence yes because most of the people who write here write in the old fashioned way and all planes were influenced by the Wright Brothers should we include that as well, it was Soviet design. This source, says so ""Gordon, Yefim. Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15. Leicester, UK: Midland Publishing, 2001. ISBN 1-85780-105-9"". It was conceived, designed, engineered and produced by the Soviets according to that source Wavesswung99 (talk) 00:40, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I have added these two books to the References section:

  • Gordon, Yefim. Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15: The Soviet Union's Long-Lived Korean War Fighter. Hinckley: Midland, 2001. ISBN 1-85780-105-9. (amazon)
  • Gordon, Yefim. Mikoyan MiG-21 (Famous Russian aircraft). Hinckley: Midland, 2007. ISBN 1857802578. (amazon)

Could you cite a page number from Gordon 2001 re the MiG-21?

Gordon 2007 on the MiG-21 seems like it could be a useful source. Does anyone have it? --Jtir (talk) 13:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] MiG-21PF of Vietnam People's Air Force captured by Americans in museum.

Astonishingly ????????

What??????. In War, no MiG-21 over border of NVN.

Source ???? What museum ???? What battle ???? What time ?????

Huyphuc1981 nb (talk) 14:35, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Czech

The czech also manufactured the MiG-21R reconnaisance plane variant and its was known for its better surface finish compared to geniune soviet planes. The russian-made planes had really uneven and hastily fitted panels.

In fact later on the MiG-29 was designed from day one to make its aerodynamics incorporate the inherently poor workmanship of soviet metal benders. When the americans acquired a dozen or so MiG-29 from Moldavia and flew them for test, they reworked the surface to make it smoother and make the planes fly better, but in fact the performance degraded - as the MiG-29 was designed to fly best with uneven panelling. 91.83.1.235 (talk) 21:21, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Maiden flight

According to this the Ye-4 (E-4) flew on 16 June 1955, not 14 June 1956, and the Ye-5 (E-5) flew on 9 January 1956, not 1955. Drutt (talk) 18:00, 20 April 2008 (UTC)