Talk:Mikis Theodorakis

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Contents

[edit] Disputed

[edit] Theodorakis' quotes on Jewish people

This section of the article is the work of a single anonymous contributor. It's a fact that Theodorakis had once made an unfortunate statement regarding Jewish people, but later he recalled it. I am was completely unaware that he said all that horrible things, and I severely doubted about it. An attempt to demonize Theodorakis and present him as an evil anti-semite would -at least- be blatantly ignorant; nobody should forget that Theodorakis was the one who wrote the music for Campanellis' "Mauthausen", a tribute for the Holocaust. Etz Haim 10:37, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I rewrote some of the section regarding Theodorakis' quotes on Jewish people. (I came after the "single anonymous contributor" mentioned above). My goals were: 1) to draw the whole picture regarding Theodorakis' quotes and 2) to try to use qoutes with little or no interpratation/conclusions.
So first of all, I saw that the original quotes were missing. What was present was Theodorakis' response to the allegations. The picture was imcpmplete. Now it is complete, starting with his statements in the press conf. and the words are there with no interpratations, so anyone can be the judge of what they mean.
second, I disagree with the saying below, about the allegations demonizing Theodorakis. in any case, the whole affair: his statememnts, the responses to that and his response to the responses - all that is part of the biography of the man and should be reported with as much impartiality as can be expected.
if it makes a difference, am an Israeli and Hebrew is my mother tongue.
note- this is my first contribution to wikipedia, so I may be unaware of textual regulations and such... Sharonbn 19:03, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Reading the Haaretz interview has taken me by surprise, but I still feel there is a certain bias in the way this is presented. The legacy of Theodorakis is not limited in a single newspaper interview; he can be quoted for much more. Etz Haim 11:16, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Does he or does he not want to say - ambigious, we need original quote in Hebrew/Greek
On 9/11: "I don't want to say that those who hit the Twin Towers were Americans themselves. It would be madness to say it. But American technology was used in 9/11 ... I don't believe that these barefoot men of Afghanistan did it. That's a joke. Not even Japanese technology could do it. Not even German technology."
Does he or does he not want to say - ambigious, we need original quote in Hebrew/Greek -- Project2501a 14:18, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It's a direct quote from the english version of Haaretz. Etz Haim 14:37, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Still, I believe it's ambigious and I'd rather have the original quotes in Hebrew. Assuming your Hebrew is remotely functional, could you dig into the Hebrew version of Haaretz and see if you come up with something? If you don't speak Hebrew good enough, do you think you could find someone that could translate from Hebrew? Of course, there's always the case Theodoraki's English are in par with my Chinese ( read: Greeklish) Project2501a 12:46, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Ok, got something off http://ta-nea.dolnet.gr
Not Theodakis direct quotes, but related to.
Project2501a 12:47, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC) (The web looks wonderful at 1800x1440 with a 24 inch monitor)
UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE More links from Eleu8erotypia http://www.enet.gr
* http://www.enet.gr/online/online_hprint.jsp?q=%CC%DF%EA%E7%F2+%C8%E5%EF%E4%F9%F1%DC%EA%E7%F2&a=&id=95397892
* http://www.enet.gr/online/online_hprint.jsp?q=%CC%DF%EA%E7%F2+%C8%E5%EF%E4%F9%F1%DC%EA%E7%F2&a=&id=66847084
* http://www.enet.gr/online/online_hprint.jsp?q=%CC%DF%EA%E7%F2+%C8%E5%EF%E4%F9%F1%DC%EA%E7%F2&a=&id=11983372
* http://www.enet.gr/online/online_hprint.jsp?q=%CC%DF%EA%E7%F2+%C8%E5%EF%E4%F9%F1%DC%EA%E7%F2&a=&id=47408140
* http://www.enet.gr/online/online_hprint.jsp?q=%CC%DF%EA%E7%F2+%C8%E5%EF%E4%F9%F1%DC%EA%E7%F2&a=&id=82830092
* http://www.enet.gr/online/online_hprint.jsp?q=%CC%DF%EA%E7%F2+%C8%E5%EF%E4%F9%F1%DC%EA%E7%F2&a=&id=74397580


I should point out, as Etz already knows, that in such cases (famous Greek people getting attached), have a tendency to come together (συσπειρώνονται) and regurgitate the same point of view, in unison, like an orchestra. I haven't been able to find a quote from a greek paper yet that critisizes Theodoriakis about his statements without labeling him an anti-semite (Ambassador Miller does not count, he's just echos the Department of Foreign Affairs says.
-- Project2501a 12:39, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

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The English version at [1] corresponds exactly to the Hebrew one at [2] (except the Hebrew says "barefoot people" not "barefoot men"). I agree with Etz Haim that the quotes give a slanted view of Theodorakis (specifically, Theodorakis in his old age), though they do reflect one aspect of his (current) views. Maybe "Mauthausen" could be mentioned explicitly for counterbalance. (Note however that Iakovos Kambanellis, Theodorakis’ collaborator on Mauthausen, recently stated that "the songs we wrote about the then-suffering Jews in Mauthausen have nothing to do with the current 'Hitlerists' in Israel." see GHM Report (Large RTF file)) Udzu 23:17, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think this article really needs to be cleaned up and rewritten to a great extent, especially its part regarding Theodorakis' political history. Missing parts are:

  • His contribution in the WWII resistance,
  • his antidictatorial struggle within the Patriotic Antidictatorial Front,
  • his mediation betwenn Yigal Allon and Yasser Arafat, as suggested to him by Allon himself,
  • his days as a New Democracy minister (Greeks: «Άνευ χαρτοφυλακίου»; How do you translate this?),
  • his support to the Greek left,
  • and many more...

As anyone may guess, this person's history and actions speak for themselves. I would write all about the allegations of anti-semitism against him, preserving the original references, but that would not be in the form of a list of quotes; it would rather be readable prose. If anyone takes over the tedious task of collecting Theodorakis' quotes in general, let him/her be warned: That's a lot of work. He's commented every possible aspect of political life in Greece and internationally. Etz Haim 01:37, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Excellent suggestion. Udzu 09:00, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
On related news, there was a second part to the interview that includes the reasoning behind Theodoraki's accusations against the current political leadership. Now that I have read the second part of the article, i propose that the quotes on the page stand, BUT we include the reasoning behind them, quoted from the man himself.

-- "Give me Unix or give me a good, solid sledgehammer!" Project2501a 13:35, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] I should do some writing...

I apologise, because lately, my work and my reading about ADO and DAO] microsuck technologies has taken most of my time. I am gonna work on this article this weekend. What I'm going to do, is write in the reasons that Mikis gives for calling Israelites the root of all evil. Does that sound good? Project2501a 20:27, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually, Mikis attempted to rephrase his original sayind to "Israelites are AT the root of all evil", meaning that they are amidst a situation that's above their own will and too difficult to resolve. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is outside the scope of this article, so please concentrate on Mikis' biography solely. Mikis does not need anyone to jump at his defense; his life achievements are the best answer to his critics, if presented as facts. Etz Haim 23:30, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Niko, cool, then, i'm removing the disputed tag from the top of the article Project2501a 21:39, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Nice, but regarding the considerations expressed above, this article needs major rewriting. I should return to it when I have the time. Etz Haim 09:50, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Obviously, this article is not an unbiased view of the man and his services to peace and human dignity, that he expressed in numerous occasions. My opinion is that the quoted political views are way out of context and presented in such a way as to present Mikis as an anti-semite and racist individual. It is my belief that this effort emanates from Mikis' stance against an arrogant and war-loving attitute that has taken Washington (and Tel-Aviv of course) in the years after the fall of the Soviet Union. Such a stance, though, shows who Mikis has been all along! --Ank99 07:29, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC) el:User:ank
Re the Haaretz interview, skeptics should note that Ha'aretz is considered to be THE leftist daily newspaper of a generally middle-to-left oriented Israeli media. Ari Shavit in particular is a regular and systematic critic of the occupation and of Israeli government from a decidedly left wing and humanitarian standpoint. Thus, the suspicion that this is some media conspiracy to "frame" Theodorakis merely for criticizing Sharon's government, makes no sense. Far harsher critics of Israeli politics have been major contributors to Haaretz.
That an "arrogant and war-loving attitude has taken Tel-Aviv" is a profoundly ignorant statement. To begin with, all three political branches of the state reside in Jerusalem. More importantly, the people of Tel-Aviv or Jerusalem are no more 'war-loving' than the people of Athens or Zurich or wherever YOU are from. -- 22:36, 04 Jan 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nobel Peace Prize

Being nominated for the Peace Prize is an honor, but it is not official and not necessarily prestigious. Any national legislator or about a third of the university professors in the world can make a nomination, and there have been as many as 140 some years. Nominators are requested to keep their nominations secret, so it's only those wishing publicity who make announcements. Altogether, I see no reason to keep it. No offense to the subject, this is a general Nobel Peace Prize "nominees" issue. -Willmcw 07:06, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup and titles

I cleaned this up to Wiki standards, I think. Any interested party can check my work and revise as necessary. I added titles to the roman numeral headings. Feel free to rewrite as necessary. DanMS 23:44, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Cleaned up the language here & there, added some links and made a few minor enhancements. Nothing, I believe, that has any bearing on the Disputed discussion here. I did, however, remove or attribute av few POV praises for Mr. T's artistic prowess. I agree he is a splendid composer/artist, but his worldwide acclaim is such that it needs no emphasis in this article. In short, I don't think anybody will be offended by the edit. (Asav)

[edit] Theodorakis - Clarification and Direct Translation of Recent Remarks Regarding Hebrews

I must say that I too was a little surprised to have heard accusations that Mikis Theodorakis is an anti-Semite. Although the quote is somewhat old news now, I have just found out about it. The need for Jewish people to be vigilant of such remarks is obvious - pogroms and holocausts do not just start from nowhere but are preceded by decades or even centuries of dehumanization of Jewish people. It is safe to say that harming your fellow human is not a pleasant task and is preceded by a process whereby the subject group is removed from the realm of humanity in the minds of perpetrators. Thus, I admire those who would pounce with vigour on a quote by such an influential figure. Clarification is required however. With regard to the Theodorakis quote, I can say as a Greek speaker that it was not translated properly. As he says in his quote, the Greeks are without brothers in the world and as such, the language does not translate well. Also, being an ancient language, it is full of words that do not have modern connotations in other languages. On the ears of Greek listeners the quote would sound much different. Most particularly I can say that the word "evil" does not appear once in his quote. I called some other Greek speakers and asked them randomly what the word was for evil - again it was not the same word that appears in the quote. Here is my translation of the quote. It may seem awkward because I have sought to translate it directly so that the reader can understand how the quote would be heard by Greek ears:

"We are two brotherless people in this world, us and the Hebrews, they have fanaticism though and can manage to impose their will... Today we can say that this small people are in the root of the bad not the good (...) The well known fact that we are loose and have not become defensive is because we have more weapons, they have Abraham and Jacob, shadows. We had a whole Pericles here. Imagine what would have happened with Greece if we had the defensiveness of the Hebrews! So much looseness that we have."

As one can see this direct translation has a lot less of the moral connotations found in some reports. For example - to be in the root of the bad is not the same as "being the root of all evil." "Bad" as anyone knows is not the same as evil. It means that which is not good (eg. insecurity). To feel insecure is "not good." To be in the root of the bad means to draw from bad things. Other incorrect translations are the words "can manage to impose their will," this has been translated in some reports as "evil stubbornness." Again, wholly inappropriate. Defensiveness is translated as aggressiveness. Also incorrect.

Theodorakis' remarks seem to be in regard to the question of why out of two peoples without kin countries in the world, Israel is more successful in protecting its interests than Greece. Both countries have been historically surrounded by enemies on all sides. Finally, when I asked some Greeks what they took from the quote, their response was that it means Greeks should not be so 'loose' and be more like Hebrews in defending themselves.

[edit] Is this any less racist?

These tiny little semantics make very little difference. Is classifying an entire race as "being the root of all 'drawing from bad things'" okay? Or as being "defensive"? If I told you that I consider the Blacks to be a race of bad, defensive people, would you not call me a racist? There's really no way of twisting such abhorring remarks or of taking them out of context. -- Daniel Oz

[edit] "Enas Omiros"

Isn't it "O Omiros"? --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:54, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

I belive that: O Omiros = Homer, so Enas Omiros to distinguish the play.

But what I meant was, isn't the name of the play "O Omiros"? I have two albums of the music, one sung by Theodorakis and one by Farandouri (both in storage at the moment, unfortunately), and I was sure that they both used the definite article — but checking the Web shows me that I was wrong. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:41, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

It's "Enas Omiros", and it is the title of the Greek translation of the play by Brendan Behan: "The Hostage". First performance on 12.04,1962 in Athens.

[edit] Plays

Should something be said about Ippies (Aristophanes); what exactly is these? Is it based on a real play by Aristophanes, is it an alternative name for a real play, or what? I can't find any trace of this except in the context of Theodorakis. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:53, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] American Copley Music Prize?

I have been unable to find any information on this "American Copley Music Prize". Cn anyone help? --Janice Rowe

No Google hits for "Copley Music Prize" that don't mention Theodorakis... Could it be misspelt? I tried some obvious variations, but came up with nothing. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:25, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Copyedit tag

I removed the {{copyedit}} tag. I started following the article a few weeks ago, proofread it twice, and (unlike most Wikipedia articles!) found no grammar, usage, or spelling errors. I'm not sure why it was tagged; perhaps it was cleaned up but the editor did not remove the tag. This article reads very well. Good job all!

If someone wants to tag the article with a different (content-based) cleanup tag based on the discussion above, I have no opinion on that and the subject is not an area within my expertise. --MCB 06:14, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid I didn't see this comment immediately, so replaced the tag with an explanation to your own Talk page. I have in mind such things as a paragraph starting "So do also his song cycles based on poems by famous Greek authors" (which is both an odd way to start a paragraph and grammatically odd). A lot of the language also needs to be toned down a bit (on the cusp of copyedit & cleanup). There's not much that remains to be done, but until it is, the tag serves to remind me and others. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:04, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
No problem... I was just on copyedit patrol and trying to get through a number of the articles on the list. Glad to leave it to the editors who are familiar with the article. (And yes, that "So do also his song cycles..." paragraph got by me.) Cheers, MCB 21:10, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

That's OK — and I think that I've done enough now to remove the template. Ther are still one or two slightly unhappy bits, but nothing really bad. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:46, 23 September 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Most important composer

The article heading says that Theodorakis is "the most important Greek music composer of the 20th century, and one of the most significant in the world". Although I'm not an expert and do recognize that value judgements are always subjective, I think that both these statements need to be supported by citations. Who's to say that Theodorakis is more important than Skalkottas and Kalomiris? I think that some kind of reference is also needed for the second statement, that he's among the most significant in the world.--Atavi 09:31, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking in terms of classical music, so I forgot to mention Manos Hadjidakis.--Atavi 09:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I intend to change the text to read "Theodorakis is one of the most important Greek music composers of the 20th century." If anyone has any objections, please use the talk page.--Atavi 18:31, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I just realised that 194.219.192.246, who is apparently a Iannis Xenakis fan, has already changed the text.--Atavi 19:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Theodorakis is not only a composer but a politician and a good one, too. He also fought for his country against German army in 1940. He is a hero, too. Above all he is a Ellinas ideal.