Talk:Mike Tyson/Archive 2

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 This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
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Contents

Trivia and cameo/parodies section

I'm going to substantially trim the trivia section and move the cameos/parodies into a new article. The pop culture references are unbalancing the article. Trivia sections are discouraged nowadays. --Eqdoktor 03:54, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Per WP:BLP, I have removed the trivia section and integrated the more relevant items from that section into the main article.

Biographies of living persons should not have trivia sections. Relevant notable sourced claims should be woven into the article. Trivia can go on the talk page as a staging ground. Eventualism is deprecated on BLP articles.

--Eqdoktor 06:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

GA on hold

I have to say great work so far, I can't believe how solid this article is considering how much of a mess it was a couple of months ago. First, let me say that I'm a very knowledgeable boxing fan, who up until about a year ago was a huge boxing fan (frustration with all the problems in the sport set in a while back). So I'll be able to give this a thorough review, some points:

Comment to clarify, all the concerns I struck out here were addressed by Eqdoktor Quadzilla99 16:57, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

  • "Tyson unified the belts in the splintered heavyweight division in the mid-eighties and quickly disposed of all rival contenders." quickly disposed of all rival contenders is a little informal and slightly POV how about "quickly defeated all of the top contenders" maybe a better wording could be found.
Done. Quadzilla99 03:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
  • "Although Tyson was considered unbeatable during his prime," I would re-word this for the same reasons as above, maybe use a quote but don't use one that's too fawning.
Done. Quadzilla99 03:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Early years seciton should list his number of arrests as a youth, I can't remember the exact number but I remember it was some astronomical number likehe was areested 38 times by the time he was 13.
Done, although the sentence preceding could be seen as an excuse I would modify it. I mean, according to some reports he used to knock out the teeth of old ladies and steal their money:[1] Quadzilla99 03:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
  • D'Amato died well after his pro career started this makes it seem like he died before his career started.
You could also work it into the next section, I think it was after like 10-15 fights of Tyson's career. Quadzilla99 03:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I worked it in into the next section. D'Amato died 11 fights into Tyson's pro career per [2]. --Eqdoktor 09:40, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
  • TKO should be wikilinked when it first appears.
Done. Quadzilla99 03:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
  • "Floyd Patterson still holds the record as the youngest lineal champ." Explain what lineal champ means here or link it.
Comment This could still be explained let me think of a way. Quadzilla99 03:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
  • "Tyson aged 20 was around 222 lb (101 kg) with approximately 5.5 percent body fat, and was stocky for his height of 5'11" (180 cm). Feared for his brute strength, many fighters were too scared to hit him and this was backed up by his incredible hand speed, accuracy, coordination, and extremely powerful hits and timing. Perhaps what was most overlooked was Tyson's defensive abilities. Holding his hands high in the Peek-a-Boo style taught by his mentor Cus D'Amato, he would slip and weave out of the way of the opponent's punches while closing the distance to deliver his own devastating attacks." This looks like some OR gets some sources and tone down the verbage, so it doesn't appear too hyperbolic.
Comment I guess the new wording is okay it could still use a little re-wording let me look at it again tomorrow. Quadzilla99 03:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
  • "'Tyson mania' in the media was becoming rampant." Needs a source I'll try find you one, I can't add it myself due to GAC regulations or I would.
Done. Quadzilla99 03:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
  • "His only other fight in 1987 was in October against the 1984 Olympic champion Tyrell Biggs, a great performance from Tyson which ended with a victory by knockout in the seventh round." Great is a weasel word.
Done. Quadzilla99 03:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
  • "This fight was featured on the cover of the July 4, 1988, issue of Sports Illustrated with the iconic image of Tyson at the peak of his fighting prowess towering over the defeated Spinks." Same deal change it to an iconic image of Tyson towering over a fallen Spinks to avoid weasel words.
Done. Quadzilla99 03:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Article needs more sources on the whole, a lot of sections and statements needs sources, the Controversy needs a lot more sources.
Done. Quadzilla99 03:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
  • "had received longer than ten to get to his feet." should be longer "had received longer than ten seconds to get to his feet."
Done, but try to re-word it this might work better: "The Tyson camp complained the count was slow and that Douglas had taken longer than ten seconds to..." Quadzilla99 03:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
  • "After the loss, Tyson returned to his old form, knocking out heavyweight contenders Henry Tillman and Alex Stewart in the first round in each of his next two fights." I would disagree with this he beat a couple of journeymen fighters I don't know if he returned to the form and discipline he had in his prime.
Done. I guess were technically contenders, but they were pretty much tomato cans.
  • "WBA belt to his collection by pummeling champion Bruce Seldon in one round in September that year.[22] However, he would be stripped of the WBC belt for refusing to fight Lennox Lewis, the organization's #1 contender.[23]" see if you can spot the weasel word in there.
Done. Quadzilla99 03:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
  • The whole Holyfield Tyson section needs sources and re-writing it reads like a personal summary.
Done. Quadzilla99 03:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
  • The Holyfield II section should mention that he actually bit off a piece of his ear.
Done. Quadzilla99 03:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
  • The Botha fight should mention that Botha was ahead on all scorecards, he was even taunting Tyson when he got knocked out.
Done. yeah that wasn't a bright move by Botha incidentally, I remember watching that fight if he kept boxing he might have won, instead he started fucking around. Quadzilla99 03:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
  • "Tyson stated that the loss was due to not being allowed enough warm up fights leading up to the fight, due to Lewis insisting on the date." Sounds like an excuse from Tyson, I would just remove it, unless you want to add a counter-point in the other direction.
  • There should be a legacy section which should discuss his accomplishments and place in history, one counter-point to include there would be that his competition in the 1980s has been criticized in hindsight. Quadzilla99 01:41, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment Here's a source for the fact that he was arrested 38 times by the time he was 13[3] (third article down in the page). This is a reprint of other articles so it should be sourced:St. James Encyclopedia of Popular Culture accessed via bookrags.com. Quadzilla99 05:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I'm on a bit of a wikibreak at the moment, I will try incorporate all your suggestions as I can (or some other WP:BOLD editor). Its good to know someone is paying attention and the work is appreciated. I'm a very weak prose writer though (I'm an engineer, not a liberal arts type) - so if someone would be able to step up and incorporate your prose suggestions into the article - that'll be great. PS: I agree that the Holyfield-Tyson I fight should be split off from the main article. Its a bit out-of-place here and its a notable enough fight to warrant its own seperate article. It's a to-do thing, I'm a bit busy now - so anyone can help do the split. --Eqdoktor 09:19, 16 April 2007 (UTC) PPS: The split is needed to reduce article size.
I have done most of the suggestions put forward by Quadzilla99 (and others did some before me). The only one not implemented atm is the legacy section. My prose writing is klunky.--Eqdoktor 14:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Okay I'll look it over again later today or tomorrow. Quadzilla99 14:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I shifted part of the intro into the new section titled "Legacy". It may need some work and suggestions are appreciated.--Eqdoktor 18:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Okay I crossed out the ones that are taken of very nice, I have one or two other concerns, the section on his family should be made into one paragraph, instead of several one sentence paragraphs. Try to include transition material such "He also has" or say "Tyson was married to [x] from date to date and [x] from date to date. He has five children with his [x] and 2 with [x]..." Also, you should include a brief recap of the famous TV interview he and Givens did that broke up their marriage. Additinally, even though the pop culture section has it's own article the section should be a summary of the separate article and should be more than one sentence. Also the legacy section needs slight expansion and references. If it seems like I'm giving you a hard case, I'm just trying to be thorough. I've been giving stringent reviews mayself also, see here or the one I'm currently being given here. Quadzilla99 03:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Not at all! Its a pleasure to work with somebody that knows what he is talking about and is interested in getting a good job done! I'm not too worried about the GA status thing (or the review) as sooner or later, I believe this article will achieve GA (or even FA) through our efforts (and the community) eventually. I'm travelling over the weekend but I'll see what I can do to implement the suggestions. Some random thoughts:

  • Tysons early past and his criminal record: I think what we have up there now in the article is more than adequate for an encyclopedia. We have established that he had a rough childhood and and a long juvenile criminal record. To go into details of him mugging and breaking the teeth of little old ladies is IMHO going a bit TMI (Too Much Info!). I can find sourced reports of Teddy Atlas shoving a pistol into a 16 year old Tyson's face for allegedly molesting Atlas's underage neice [4][5] but there I don't think you can write such stuff in without unbalancing the whole article verging into WP:POV biased territory.
  • Tomato Cans, challenges and Tyson - Legacy writeup: IMHO, I personally find it pretty hard to write this part without going into WP:OR. Its all a bit complex. Tyson's career is laced with:
    • fights with true Tomato Cans (Peter McNeeley),
    • fights that he scared/psyched his oppenents to submission (Bruce Seldon, Frank Bruno)
    • fights that he showed true skill and power (Holmes, Berbick, Ruddock, Carl Williams etc. - YMMV)
    • fights that he himself fell apart (Buster Douglas, Holyfield I and II)
    • fights that exposed his loss of skill (Lennox Lewis, Botha)
    • fights at the tail end of his career (fringe fighters and journeyman)
    • fights that could have happened but never did - George Foreman (he allegedly ducked him as he believed he would lose against Foreman's fighting style)
  • I think someone who has a bit more experience summarizing all that would do a better job. As always if someone could come in and help put together a better article its all the much more appreciated.--Eqdoktor 07:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep me updated I'm willing to let it go longer if work is being done. Quadzilla99 18:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
      • I see work is being done, I'll look at it later tonight and see how it is. Quadzilla99 13:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Legacy section

I'm having a hard time trying to write it as my prose skills suck and I'm not too sure if my knowledge of overall boxing history is up to par. Perhaps other editors can jump in at this point? I'm looking thru other Wikipedia sports personalities articles and their not much help. Jesse Owens, Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Joe Louis, Carl Lewis(GA and long!) wikipedia articles all do not have legacy sections atm. I'm thinking what we have now is adequate for the GA review. Of course if anyone can jump in with suggestions to expand it, it will be much appreciated. --Eqdoktor 16:02, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

This is the German Wikipedia "Summary" translated via babelfish. IMO, its pretty WP:OR (English Wikipedia has better ref sources), biased and I don't agree with its conclusion:
Due to his defensive and offensive strength as well as the fact with 20 years of youngest world champions of history in the heavyweight to have become many saw the coming largest boxer of all times in it. But D`Amatos death (the loss of the father figure and the only person, which had Tyson under control), private problems (begun with its first wife Robin Givens), the change to Boxpromoter Don King and the dismissal of its coach Kevin Rooney as well as its undisciplinednesses within and outside of the ring, resulting from it, always opposed. After the dismissal Rooneys developed Tyson its style further, did not let it diminish: It neglected its defensive work, works less with the leading hand and brought its combinations ever more rarely; instead it tried nearly only to come with an individual impact to the KO. It became behaebig, did not train not with last consequence, underestimated its opponents and overrated themselves. Furthermore Tysons career is probably a sad example of wrong friends, advisors and missmanagement: From the income a richest sportsman of the world is broke and has debts in million height. In the year 2005, still before its last fight, he meant his whole life in an interview, a verschwendung was.
--Eqdoktor 20:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Michael Jordan and Bill Russell, are solid FA examples. This article is very close, I anticipate passing it in a day or so. Quadzilla99 21:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Shit, I forgot to review this today—I'll do it first thing tomorrow. Quadzilla99 05:29, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
If anyone is looking at this, footnotes #3, #24, #25 and #26 are interesting articles summarizing Tyson's career up to around the early 2000's. Also interesting is this article Why We Never Saw Foreman-Tyson in which there is an explanation why Tyson never fought George Foreman. --Eqdoktor 09:46, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

GA passing

Okay I'm passing this GA, I'm going to go through and make a couple of corrections to grammar. I'll leave some notes in a second. Quadzilla99 13:24, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, it needs to list that many sportswriters have a hard time ranking him because (due to no fault of his own mind you) he fought in such a weak era during his prime that it's hard to rank him against other greats who fought and defeated other all-time greats. For instance Ruddock who gave Tyson problems, was dusted in like two minutes by Lewis, other writers have pointed that out. Also I toned down some potential POV that was in there and tweaked some grammar, descriptions like "fabulous defensive skills" even if true are frowned upon here. Overall the article is slightly pro-Tyson. I added it here for an FA push, they should be able to help you out. Also, I fixed the format see Michael Jordan or Wayne Gretzky the boxes go at the bottom. The career achievements or list of a accomplishments sections doesn't use those boxes, it's usually prose or a bulleted list. Nice work overall though keep it up. Quadzilla99 13:45, 27 April 2007 (UTC)