Talk:Mike Brown (football team owner)

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[edit] Vandalism

I have reverted every edit since October 28 due to massive vandalism and unsourced assertions. If you find your edits gone, please re-edit, but use reliable sources. Corvus cornix 00:20, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I removed a lot that was opinion and/or reporting events that happened to the team without any connection to Mr. Brown. Steve Dufour 03:19, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Please don't make any more edits to this page. There has been vandalism but the two users above erased opinion and cited fact. I put the fact back in along with the subject's editorial commenting on his own controversy. Nothing should be erased from this baseline. It is football season and many fans are emotional and will vandalize this page. The last edit left nothing on the page, you should have erased the page altogether. Steve and Corvus, your edits were poorly done and if you wish to make future edits you should first discuss them through this medium. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.100.173.186 (talk) 23:41, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Please note that they were discussed here and at WP:BLPN. Please explain how all of those personal attacks are biographic. Corvus cornix 22:47, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Due to the nature of this person's reclusive behavior. I have contacted the Cincinnati Bengals organization for an official biography to add to the personal information side. Everything is currently cited. The controversy list mainly refers to Mr. Brown's running of this organization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Minerva717 (talk • contribs) 04:34, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

An official biography is not a reliable source. If you want to rewrite it in your own words, then please do. But don't just revert all of those personal attacks which have little to do with a biography of this individual and more to do with the history of the team. Corvus cornix 22:46, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I have never heard of Mr. Brown before; and, in fact, am not much of a football fan. However you can not tell the whole history of the team and the problems of the players in this article. It makes it look like you are saying that it is all Brown's fault. This might be partly true, but it is against WP policy concerning living persons. You can say that some people have blamed him for the team's problems, if that is cited. But you can not detail the problems themselves as has been done here. If anyone should leave the article it should be his fans and his detractors, and let those of us who are not emotionaly involved clean it up. Steve Dufour 00:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

An official biography can and will be used. 'Self-published material may never be used in BLPs unless written by the subject him or herself.Subjects may provide material about themselves through press releases, personal websites, or blogs. Material that has been self-published by the subject may be added to the article only if:

   * it is not contentious;
   * it is not unduly self-serving;
   * it does not involve claims about third parties;
   * it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
   * there is no reasonable doubt as to who wrote it;
   * the article is not based primarily on such sources.

These provisions do not apply to subjects' autobiographies that have been published by reliable third-party publishing houses; these are treated as reliable sources, because they are not self-published.

The views of critics should be represented if they are relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics; rather, it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone.

- The controversy articles are completely fact with no opinions except from Mike Brown himself. Mr. Brown's organization is relevant to the subject's notability. If it was not relevant the title would not be Mike Brown (Football Team Owner).

If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability.

- Stadium Deal: I have cited legal documents and have provided no opinion (except of the court). I provided the official complaint and court findings for this important event. This clears up any rumor on the true nature and finding from the Stadium Deal Controversy.

- Official National Football League statistics (Ownership Time line) were provided because they are relevant to the Subject's notability. As the General Manager(GM), President, Owner of a professional sports organization, Mr. Brown has an effect on the statistics produced by the team on the field, as does Marvin Lewis and the GM or Owner of any team. No Opinion is in the statistics.

- The Loyalty Clause: Much has been written concerning this clause in the contracts. So much that Mr. Brown felt it necessary to write a guest editorial piece to explain why he invented the clause and how he came to the point. I included the article to explain the Subject's point of view to help explain this controversial issue in a logical manner. It may appear to be a bias for Mr. Brown, but his logical explanation of the loyalty clause is cause for inclusion in the Subject's page not censorship.

- The players legal troubles is relevant to the Mr. Brown's, Roger Goodell's, Marvin Lewis's, and Gene Upshaw's notability, as represented on their pages. Sports media wrote on the subject and is a notable event in his time as owner, GM, and President. The way he dealt with each situation is listed next to player. No opinion was presented. I presented the facts about the event as it has and will continue to unfold as each judgment is made in court.

- The Family Run Team article should be excluded until it is further developed and provides an explanation of the issue.

Everything related to his management of the team has an effect on his notability. If being an owner, GM, and president had no relevance the hall of fame would not exist or remember owners and GMs.

Wikipedia also contains biographies of people who, while notable enough for an entry, are not generally well known. In such cases, editors should exercise restraint and include only material relevant to their notability. Material from third-party primary sources should not be used unless it has first been published by a reliable secondary source. Material published by the subject must be used with caution.

NO Original Research Verifiability Neutral point of view

You are making accusations of bias but you do not argue why you believe there is bias and where it is. You are not editing this article you are censoring the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Minerva717 (talk • contribs) 01:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't plan on reading a diatribe. Condense it to one or two paragraphs. However, I have re-removed all of the edits you just added because most of it belongs in the Bengals article (I have no problem with that), and the legal document is a primary source and as such is not reliable, if you can find a book, a magazine article, or a newspaper aricle which discusses the legal document, you can use that. Corvus cornix 18:24, 13 November 2007 (UTC)