Talk:Mihrab/Archive1

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The whole Usage of Al-Mihrab in The Qur'an section seems like one persons interpretation. How generally accepted is this section by Muslims in general. Also, could someone knowledgable in Islamic theology go through and edit it? It makes very little sense to a non-Muslim. Ashmoo 04:51, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Mihrab is a Persian word

We have more words in which the suffix âb are found: sardâb, garmâbe. âb(e) means structures having concave ceiling and not water. Sardâb must be free from any trace of water or it's useless. It's older form is âv(e) that we have in the name of these cities: âvaj, sâve (se+âve).

I don't think it puts Islam in danger if we accept that it has a word from Mithraism. So let's stop coining a different etymology for this word. Seems we have forgotten that namâz is also a Zoroastrian term.

i agree

Excuse me but it does have roots in Arabic even if it seems similar to a Persian word. The word has been used by Arabs a long time before Islam and it means "the location of the head of the house - the best location in the house" (more or less, I'm not so good at translation). I really don't understand why you would look for the meanings of Arabic words in Persian dictionaries and from Persian books when you have many Arabic sources to look up, I'm not denying that Arabic does have Persian loan words but I can assure you if it is a loan word that would be mentioned in the dictionary and Miharab is not one of them.

Even if it was a loan word, it would then be more likely to be a loan word from Aramic since they have it, and they have used it also; they are closer to Arabs (always have been living in the same areas) and the use is much more similar (the altar in the church).

Besides, why would the Arabic version turn the ligh h letter (هـ) to (ح)? That is not logical and does not really make any sense to me because Arabs use both letters and pronnounce them differently, while Persians, up to my understanding, do not distinguish between them (I've heard Persians say "Hussain" as an example, so no, they can not pronnounce it). It looks to me more like the Persian mihrab is a loanword from Arabic.

P.s. namaz was never an Arabic name, Arabs don't use it and don't know it and it is not listed in their dictionaries. It is not an Islamic word at all since it is not mentioned in Islamic sources; it is quite understandable why Persians use it - since it means prayer or "salat" in their language so I don't see the analogy.

--Maha Odeh 04:51, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arabic etymology

Let's say محراب is Arabic and from ح-ر-ب. Then when it goes to scale مفعال it makes tool name. So it will mean warfare or something like this and not battlefield. For it we can have محرب from scale مفعل

I don't know why some people try to fabricate an etymology for a word that has been used long before in pre-Islamic Persia for the same structure. Even if they mangage to fabricate successfully they can't hide truth from people who research. 82.132.104.130


That is not exactly how it works:

a. the scale "mif3aal" is not only for tool names (ism aala), which can be on this scale, but can also be on 6 other scales which are "mif3al", "mif3ala", "fa3ila", "fa33aala", "fa3ool" and "fa33aal". It just so happens that this scale can be used for tools, but not ONLY for tool naming.

b. the word "mizwaaj" as an example, which means "a man or woman that keep re-marring" and the word "mi3aad" which means "a date or an appointment or a set date" are also on the same scale and they are both not tools.

c. The meaning changes through use, it would have originally been used as something related to war, then changed slightly through time until it has nothing to do with the meaning of the original root; ex. Mashrabiyya is derived from the root sheen-raa-baa which means "to drink", however a mashrabiyya is a type of window and has nothing to do with drinking - it had at a certian point in time but then it changed.

People who reasearch have to see both sides of the story, i.e., they have to check Arabic sources - especially when looking for an Arabic word. As a matter of fact, a few scholars (Islamic scholars, not linguists, at least up to my knowledge) do say that it may be a loan word; however, they seem to believe it is Syrianic (a dialect of Aramaic) not Persian. You know, not everything Arabic has Persian roots even if you like to think so.

--Maha Odeh 05:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Before my edit of today, the etymology section said mihrab "was used in pre-Islamic Persia to designate the niches in the Mithraistic houses of worship. Mihr in Persian means Mithra and mihrab means Mithraeum."
    :That is absolute rot. Even if the mihrab of Islam has a Persian language origin (despite my edit of today, I seriously doubt it), it cannot possibly refer to "Mithraistic" houses of worship. The Romans were never in Iran as an occupying force, and no Mithraea were ever built there. The (hidden) implication that the Mysteries of Mithras is an Iranian religion suggests the person who proposed it can't read.
  • Nonetheless, there is a pre-Islamic (i.e. Zoroastrian) technical term with "mihr" in it, so, given the rather vociferous opinion (expressed here on talk) that mihrab is a Persian language word, I chose to "correct" it (and provide a proper context for mihrab being Persian) rather than delete it entirely.
  • I must make clear however that I doubt mihrab has a Persian language root. I even doubt that it is thought to be that Iran. In all Iranian mosques the mihrab is in the western wall of a building and not in the eastern wall. In contrast, Mithra is associated with the east (sunrise).
     :In my opinion, the putative etymology should be deleted altogether. If the etymology is not exactly known, it shouldn't be stated to be "believed to be" anything.
    -- Fullstop 21:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
ps: What does the Encyclopedia of Islam say on the subject?
pps: The Encyclopedia Britannica says mihrabs first appeared during the reign of the Ummayad caliph al-Walid I (705–715)

[edit] Mihrab in the Qur'an. Unpublished synthesis

The author synthesizes parts of Quran and parts of the Bible to synthesize a claim both of which do make.

removed the whole section. As Ashmoo already observed on 04:51, 28 July 2006 the section didn't make any sense at all. -- Fullstop 18:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Various OR issues

First of all, the h in mihrab is this letter Heth (letter) not this He (letter). Although in modern Hebrew it has two pronunciations, the two are two separate letters in Arabic so the Heth (حاء) is clear and distinguished. It is NEVER confused with He (هاء) neither in pronunciation or writing.

Arabic sources mention as follows:

  • Ibn Manthour (Persian, by the way) in his Dictionary "The Tongue of the Arabs" mentions Miharb under h r b and says: The Mihrab is the foremost location of the house and the most honorable location in it. p.s., Ibn Manthour likes to stress on Persian loanwords in Arabic even when everyone else is positive that it's pure Arabic - for mihrab he seems sure it's Arabic.
  • Al Murtadha in his dictionary "Taj Al Aroos" says that Mihrab is the sacred room, exalted location and the foremost and most honorable location in the house. It is mostly like a room but it is also the most honorable location of the masjid.
  • Al fairouzabadi (again, Persian) in "Al Qamoos Al Muheet" says: the Mihrab is the private room, the foremost part of the house and most honorable location in it, the Imam's area in the masjid, the kings locations where he sits at a distance from people. The Mihrabs of Bani Israel are the private and sacred rooms in which they sit.
  • Butrus Al Bustani in "Muheet Al Muheet" says the same as fairouzabadi but adds to it: since the Mihrab is the the foremost and most honorable location of the room, that is why the mihrab in the masjid was called so.

The above are all Arabic dictionaries; I chose the classical ones that were written several centuries ago. You may also lookup the newer ones if you want. All of them you will find it under the root h-r-b.

As for other books, this is what is written:

  1. Abu Hanifa (also Persian) said that: Mihrab is the most honorable location of kings, the location of the king's thrown.
  2. Abu Ubaida said that: Mihrab is the master of locations, the front and the most honorable.
  • Taha Al Wali is his book "Mosques in Islam" page 213 talks about the etymology; in addition to Arabic sources he mentions the following:
  1. Croswell said: This word has been found in ancient Arab poetry, but it did not have a religious meaning then, it had a secular one.
  2. Theodor Nöldeke stated that it meant the thrown room for the king or the prince.
  3. Rhodokonakis, the Austrian Orientalist states that the origin of the word mihrab is location of the thrown as in Qasr Umeera (small ancient palace in Jordan).
  4. Pedersen in his entry of Mihrab in the Islamic Encyclopedia states the same as the above.

This is what I found about Etymology. --Maha Odeh 06:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

In relation to history, the sources I have state the following:

  1. First Mihrab in Islam is the Prophet's private room. He used it for prayer and called it his mihrab. This room was open to the mosque so the Prophet would enter the mosque directly through his room.
  2. During the reign of Uthman (third Calif), many people started to move into Madina from different places, whenever they entre the mosqe they do not know the location of the Qibla (direction of Mecca) so Uthman ordered that a sign be made on the wall to help people to know where it is. However, it was merely as sign and the wall remained flat.
  3. During the reign of Al Waleed ibn Abdul Malik, Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz was the wali of Madina, during that time he renovated the Prophet's mosque and added a neich to distinguish the Qibla wall, the neich was where Uthman's sign was put.

I have six sources for the above (although a couple mention another version in addition to this one, slightly different). However, they are all in Arabic. I'm sure English sources can be found if one looks for them.

--Maha Odeh 06:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Maha for your the work you put into digging up that material. I have incorporated your material into a rewrite of what was evidently mostly made up by someone. It would however be great if you could insert <ref></ref> citations at the appropriate points in the article. -- Fullstop 17:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)