Talk:Mihai Eminescu

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WikiProject Romania This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Romania, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Romania-related topics. Please visit the the Wikipedia:WikiProject Romania if you would like to get involved. Happy editing!
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
High This article has been rated as high-importance on the project's importance scale.
edit · history · watch · refresh To-do list for Mihai Eminescu:

No to-do list assigned; you can help us in improving the articles in the same category
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Biography Portal
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]

Please rate the article and, if you wish, leave comments here regarding your assessment or the strengths and weaknesses of the article.
  • In the process of translating this page from the Romanian-language Wikipedia, I ran into a possible copyright violation, but chose to continue my work. The English-language version raises less of a copyright issue than the Romanian, since I chose to do a somewhat loose translation.
The bulk of the content in ro:Mihai Eminescu -- the original article contributed anonymously -- seems to be verbatim from the more extensive http://www.molddata.md/Literatura/eminescu.html. I have raised on the Romanian-language talk page ro:Discuţie:Mihai Eminescu the question of whether it was taken with permission, or is a possible copyright violation. -- Jmabel 07:13, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)
  • The Romanian-language article refers to Eminescu's father as "căminarului", presumably an indication of profession; I have no idea what that means and simply chose to skip the matter. -- Jmabel 07:13, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)
yes, it is some kind of tax collector. see: [1]
  • I do not know how to translate the title "De-as avea". -- Jmabel 07:13, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)
"If I had" is if i would have
  • Frankly, this is still not much of an article. I've now mined what was there in Romanian. Someone else can perhaps take it from here. -- Jmabel 07:13, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)
  • Does anyone have any clarity on "Mihai Eminescu" vs. "Mihail Eminescu"? Google favors the former 24,600 to 1,990. Under the circumstances, I'd expect the article to be "Mihai Eminescu", while "Mihail Eminescu" would be the ridirect. -- Jmabel 07:18, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I think that "Mihail" is his birth name, while "Mihai" is the name he's commonly known in Romania. The article should be moved to the most common known name: "Mihai Eminescu". Bogdan 13:09, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

An anonymous user recently made several edits. Most of these look OK, but I believe that one is wrong. The Romanian-language article said that he signed "The Grave of Aron Pumnul" as "M. Eminoviciu". The recent edit changes that to "M. Eminovici" on no evidence. I am guessing that is because "Eminovici" was his birth-name, and someone incorrectly thought "Eminoviciu" was an error. I am reverting that. It's possible that I am wrong here, and if these changes had been signed I'd consult the individual who made them. If someone wants to restore the text that I am reverting, I hope they will explain here and cite some reference to indicate that I am wrong. -- Jmabel 05:53, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Recent anon addition says he died mad, of syphilis. I can't say that's wrong, just never heard that before. Does anyone have a citation? -- Jmabel 01:15, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)

It is sure that in his last years, he had suffered of manic-depressive psychosis. In 1883, in Romania, he had a diagnostic of syphilis too, but in Vienna he did not. (G. Calinescu wrote in the poet's biography that he had the illness since he was 20.) In 1884, he returns in Romania in pretty good shape. Since 1886, few injections with mercury, that time treatment for syphilis. The autopsy was made in a negligent manner. --Vasile 05:45, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
So it sounds like the recent insertion "Eminescu died in hospital June 15, 1889 as a mad man, with a terminal stage of Syphilis," while not entirely misleading, could be improved upon. Vasile, I'm trying to render what you wrote into better English, but I want to make sure I've understood you correctly before putting it in the article. How's this:
"In his last years, he suffered from manic-depressive psychosis. In 1883, in Romania, he was diagnosed with syphilis and G. Calinescu wrote in the poet's biography that he had the illness since he was 20; however, a separate diagnosis made in Vienna, also from 1883, said that he did not have syphilis. mentioned his depression but did not mention syphilis.
"In 1884, he returned to Romania and appeared generally healthy. Starting in 1886, he received a few injections with mercury, which was at that time the usual treatment for syphilis. His autopsy was made in a negligent manner, so the matter is unlikely to be definitively settled."
-- Jmabel 06:31, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC), strike and replacement in response to Vasile's remark below; I'll put it in the article. -- Jmabel 16:48, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)
As my knowledge, the diagnosis made in Vienna didn't mention any other illnes from depression. --Vasile 15:09, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Junimea (from German jung -"young").

Actually, it's from Romanian june - "young", word inherited from the Latin word "juvenis" [2] Bogdan | Talk 16:43, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The information from "Eminescu" article should be merged with this one. Bogdan | Talk 17:36, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. I added the merge template to "Eminescu". If someone wants to take this on, great, otherwise I'll eventually get there. -- Jmabel 20:14, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Birthplace

An recent anonymous edit without citation or explanation changed the link for his birthplace, Ipoteşti, from Ipotesti, Botosani, to Balotesti, Botosani. I have no idea what this might be about (neither article exists), but thought I would flag this for the benefit of anyone with a clue. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:21, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

G. Calinescu mentioned two possibles birthplaces: Ipotesti, Botosani and town of Botosani. For sure, Ipotesti is the place of Eminescu's childhood. It is possible that some other children also having the name Mihail Eminovici to be born in some other place of the region. --Vasile 02:56, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Most Romanian Literature teachers say that Eminescu was borned in Botoşani. I am supposing that this is backed up by something, but I haven't had the curiosity to check. As I've learnt in school, Mihai Eminescu was born in Botoşani and the house in Ipoteşti was bought by his family afterwards. He did spend most of his childhood in the latter place, though. Dndfan 21:11, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Eminovici

Judging by edits, people seem to be back and forth on whether to mention that his birthname, Eminovici was a Slavic name, and that Eminescu is a Romanian-ized equivalent. I think it should be there: this is the kind of thing that would be instantly obvious to a Romanian or to someone who knows Romanian language and culture, but absolutely opaque to most others. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:30, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

It has no relevance, since it is a patronymic. "Son of Emin" was 'Eminovici' in Slavic, just as "Son of Emin" was 'Eminescu' in Romanian. Sometimes, the variant used was chosen by the local clerks, just as in Transylvania under the Hungarians, when the clerks used to register on birth instead of "Ion" or "Gheorghe" --> "Janos" or "Gyorgy". (This expains why many Transylvanian Romanians had Latin names -- there was no equivalent in Hungarian :) Bogdan | Talk
But given that his father had the same last name, it was functioning as a surname, not as a patromymic. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:00, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Influences in modern times

Eminescu is regarded as the first nationalist Romanian personality by an extreme-right political and cultural movement in Romania called Noua Dreaptă (translation: The New Right; url: http://www.nouadreapta.org/). Other influences in politics and way of thinking can be found (though unfortunately my knowledge is limited), in which case a reference to them should be made in the main article. As it is, this is probably too small to be mentioned anyway. Dndfan 21:29, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

He did influence the politics of his time through his many articles in the press. But no, I don't think his influence can be found in todays' Romanian politics. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | Talk 22:30, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A little bit about everything

1. Ancestors. His paternal grandfather used to sign Iminovici. He must have come from Transylvania, crossing the Carpathians in the eighteenth century. There are no other Eminescu, Eminovici, or Iminovici in Moldavia, but some were found in Transylvania. His father Gheorghe's (George) wanderings back and forth from Moldavia to Austrian-ruled Bukowina may be an indication of the family's nostalgia for German (i.e. Austrian) discipline (both Bukowina and Transylvania, lying north and west of Moldova, were part of the Austrian Empire, although the Hungarian influence in Transylvania was also strong). Gheorghe kept good commercial ties with Bukowina, and insisted on sending his sons to German schools. Thanks to services rendered, he was made căminar by the Moldavian prince. This was not a trade, but rather the lowest rank in the Moldavian aristocracy, which was also a bureaucracy. In late 18th-early 19th century Moldavia, nobles were civil servants. Hence, Gheorghe Eminovici was really in charge of taxes, but held at the same time an aristocratic rank, which allowed him to marry up.

2. Place of birth. Most likely, and according to most biographers (starting with Călinescu's classical 1932 Life of Mihai Eminescu), he was born in the city of Botoşani, where proper care could have been provided to the căminar's wife (at least he was baptized there, and in 1850 children were baptized early, lest they died pagan). Then the family went back to Ipoteşti, a really small village and a place Eminescu would always consider "home", which is why some sources still give Ipotesti as his place of birth.

3. Name. Mihail and Mihai are, in a way, the official (i.e. religiously correct) and the casual forms of the same name, but Mihai is the only form Romanians have used for centuries (e.g. Michael the Brave, who died in 1601 after having briefly united Moldavia, Wallachia, and Transylvania, is always called Mihai, not Mihail, by 17th-century historians). Orthodox priests have insisted that the final -l cannot be dropped, since it is part of God's name (see the etymology for Michael), that is why in all baptismal records the name reads Mihail, but few people have actually called themselves that way. The other problem is the final -u in the family name Eminovici(u). It is a silent u, today extinct, that was still kept then in the spelling of masculine nouns with no article, and consequently in the spelling of some names originated from these nouns. In some cases, though, adding a silent -u to your name was either a matter of hyper-correctness, or of snobishness (like adding a silent -e at the end of some English names, see Anne of Green Gables, where the girl's real name was Ann, but she thought Anne looked better on paper); a good example here would be that of Romanian novelist Mateiu Caragiale, marvelous writer and great snob, whose real first name should be Matei. Although young Eminescu's signature as Eminoviciu is famously reproduced in print, NO modern critic has ever written or would ever think of writing his ex-name any other way than Eminovici. After all, Shakespeare spelled his name Shakspere, but who's asking him today?

4. De-aş avea means If I had.

5. There has been a continuous debate regarding his illness and death. Some (previously serious and passionate researchers of Eminescu's life who have turned into conspiracy theorists, like N. Georgescu and Theodor Codreanu) have published several books that try to prove he was never ill and that he was assassinated. After all, Eminescu did not just die in a mental institution, as many bowdlerized sources will tell you. Anyone who reads any complete biography of the poet will learn that he was also assaulted by a fellow patient. The name of this patient is known (Poenaru). While this may not have been at all the cause of his death, it did stir it up for the conspiracy theorists. It is also true (cf. Calinescu, which is still a most reliable source) that Eminescu's brain was damaged beyond repair before any autopsy was possible. Gheorghe Marinescu, who is considered the greatest Romanian neurologist of all time, witnessed all this (he was a young intern of 26). These are all facts. Now the conspiracy theories may be summarized as follows: Eminescu was the leader (or a leader) of a secret society that intended to start a military revolution in Transylvania, but Romania signed a secret treaty with Austria the same day Eminescu's supposed illness started. From then on, the fierce nationalist journalist who wanted to become a national leader was little by little silenced (with drugs and, in the end, assasinated) and shown to the general public as a Romantic poet, a little mad and strange. Truth is, Eminescu's first volume of poetry is published after the beginning of his illness and not by himself, but by his friend/mentor Titu Maiorescu, who, say conspiracy theorists, was, just like every other of Eminescu's friends from Junimea (except for Creanga) close to the political circles who had agreed with the secret treaty. Another thing that is true is that the treaty remained secret until WWI, when Romania chose to switch sides, and in the meantime 3 of the 5 founders of Junimea (Maiorescu, Carp, Rosetti) had been prime-ministers of Romania. But the idea of making Eminescu the unknown hero of a huge and hidden political struggle seemed stretched to most people. I only mentioned it because it is part of the debate regarding Eminescu.

6. The article does not mention Eminescu's antisemitism and his xenophobia. The latter is present first of all in his famous poem Doina, forbidden during the communist regime, because it talked of Romanian territories that had been stolen by the USSR. The former accusation seems more serious, since it is based not on a poem (although poems can be the best instruments of propaganda), but on scores of newspaper (op/ed) articles in Timpul. Because of them, Eminescu's antisemitism has been commonplace for Romanian Jews but it is sometimes overlooked by Romanians.

7. The Eminescu scandal should have been mentioned. See this issue of Dilema that set Romania on fire, because young writers dared to challenge not only Eminescu's ideas and attitudes, but also the value of his writings. http://www.algoritma.ro/dilema/fw.htm?current=arhiva_dilema/search1.htm

A book was published a year later, including some of the (inflammatory) reactions to these essays.
That issue of Dilema can be found here: http://www.algoritma.ro/dilema/arhiva_dilema/265/ IulianU

8. Finally (for now), the debate over Eminescu as Romania's national poet. Is he, and if he is, why is he? Anybody who is informed can argue for or against this. In schools nobody argues. He is, because ... (some old-fashioned 19th-century-like arguments follow).

Maybe none of these deserve to be included in the wiki article. Maybe some do. Anyway, I really-really appreciate Jmabel's willingness to deal with Eminescu.

Quatrocentu 07:02, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
It sure sounds like you know the territory more than I do. Please, take a shot at editing the article itself, not just remarking on the talk page! Obviously, it will be helpful if you explicitly cite as many of your sources as possible (a few are indicated above). FWIW, I mentioned Eminescu's anti-semitism in passing in the article on Abraham Goldfaden, citing Michael Riff as a secondary source, but haven't really mentioned it here. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:42, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes, please do add these. Articles should be edited by those who know what they are talking about. (I've done #4, which was easy.) Septentrionalis 15:09, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Legacy" section

The section on his political view is not at all POV. I think it's not accurate to say Eminescu was a "rightist" conservative or a "leftist" socialist. His views combine the two.

A major obstacle to his full adoption was the fact he had never appeared to be a Christian, but rather expressed indiscriminately Buddhist, Christian, agnostic, and atheist views.

I doubt he "expressed Christian views". He used Christian myths and motives, as well as identifying Christianity as a part of the Romanian ethnos, but he never assumed these views. Also, he use Buddhism as a philosophy, not a religion.

And here appears pretty clear which was his opinion on religion:

Religion - but a tale, astutely spread abroad
To rivet on your shoulders the heavy harnessed load,
For, had you lost all hope of heavenly reward
After a life on earth with pain and hardship scored,
Would you go on working as an ox beneath the goad?
from Împărat şi proletar translation by Corneliu M. Popescu

bogdan | Talk 17:58, 4 November 2005 (UTC)


So, I wrote "used ... themes" instead of "expressed ... views", i.e. I used Bogdan's words, which are, it is true, more cautious. Then I removed the POV flag, as (1) I think the problem is solved and (2)Bogdan announced he'd be on "wikibreak" till mid-November. Other than that, one should be careful when quoting a poet's lines. The ideas about religion quoted by Bogdan DO NOT belong (or if they do, no one could tell) to the poet, but to a character. "Împărat şi proletar" is partly an epic poem, describing first the dark, ominous setting of a tavern, where a character, "the proletarian" to be more exact, gives a speech. Bogdan's quote is from that speech. The poem was inspired by the 1870-1871 events in France, when Emperor Napoleon III had to abdicate, and a short-lived proletarian republic was founded in Paris. The poem ends with a metaphysical, schopenhauerian monologue of the poet about the essence of being. At no time does the poet seem to embrace any other "view", but he rather comments upon the general fate of mankind.

P.S. Often quoted are these lines from a Christmas carol by Eminescu:

"De dragul Mariei
Si-al Mantuitorului
Luceste pe ceruri
O stea calatorului."

which in literal translation reads as:

"For the sake of Mary
And the Savior,
A star in heavens
Shines to the traveler".

I'm not saying that he was a Christian for that matter, but the mere use of the word "Mantuitorului" (Genitive for "the Savior"), which is not a word you would hear in everyday language, nor in most carols (which are usually allegories about a hunt or a quest and, at best, speak of Christ, not of "the Savior"), but in the liturgy and the Christian creed, speaks volumes of the respect Eminescu had for religion.

I wouldn't say that "Mântuitor" (Saviour) it is a rather unusual word for Romanian carols. I know a some carols where it is used:
Praznic luminos
Praznic luminos,
Strălucit, frumos,
Astăzi ne-a sosit
Şi ne-a-nveselit
Că Mântuitorul
Şi izbăvitorul
În trup a venit (...)
O, ce veste minunată'
O ce veste minunată
În Viflaim [Betleem] ni s-arată
Astăzi s-a născut
Cel făr' de-nceput
Cum au spus prorocii.
Că la Viflaim, Maria,
Săvârşind călătoria,
Într-un mic sălaş,
Lâng-acel oraş
A născut pe Mesia
Pe Fiul ce-n al său nume
Tatăl l-a trimis în lume
Să se nască
Şi să crească,
Să ne mântuiască.

To him, unlike the proletarian in his poem, religion was not "but a tale". P.P.S. As for his political views, the fragment Bogdan didn't like (I used the third person as I don't expect him to answer this too soon) was about Eminescu's being embraced by the political right and by the political left, and NOT about his own political views. Anyway, anyone who has read Eminescu's journalistic work (of course, especially the famous volume XI of his Complete Works, but ALL volumes from VIII through XIII) cannot question the fact that he WAS a fierce conservative.

User:Quatrocentu | Talk Quatrocentu 10:36, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Uncited change in father's place of origin

[3]: does anyone have a citation either way? - Jmabel | Talk 01:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Place names

In the section on family, are "Calinesti" and "Ipotesti" correct? Not "Calineşti" (or possibly "Călineşti") and "Ipoteşti"? - Jmabel | Talk 05:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Morning star / evening star

I see no basis for changing Luceafărul from "morning star" to "evening star." The Catholic Encyclopedia bears out "morning star". The 1911 Britannica wrote "the name given to the "morning star," i.e. the planet Venus when it appears above the E. horizon before sunrise, and sometimes also to the "evening star," i.e. the same planet in the W. sky after sundown, more usually called Hesperus." I am reverting; it would take some very solid citations to override these. - Jmabel | Talk 21:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)