Talk:Mieczysław Weinberg

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[edit] Numbering

Just a note that Manashir Yakubov's notes to the Claves Chamber Symphonies disc mentions 19 quartets rather than 17. Mark1 21:20, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

More numerical oddness- Grove gives his date of death as 2 Feb, not 26. Mark1 20:22, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Hrm. Looking at Gregorian calendar to see whether this was a matter of Old Style/New Style dating makes me very, very confused but suggests not, that Poland was in fact among the first countries to adopt the new system (along with Lithuania in commonwealth). As to quartets, I am guessing that if it is not simply an error, it results from counting the two versions of the first quartet separately, and perhaps the opus 9 Aria as well (just as some composers' named but un-numbered works are also counted - inconsistently! - by some reference sources...) (And I wonder about the opus 129/130 question noted at this Weinberg worklist... but then, sources can't agree on how many symphonies he composed either. Apparently no. 20 exists in reconstructable form, but I can't see why numbers greater than 20 show up from time to time unless the sinfoniettas and chamber symphonies are being counted etc.) Schissel-nonLop! 05:07, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Names and religion

  • 'Mieczysław Samuilowicz' sounds absolutely ludicrous in the Polish language, which - unlike Russian - lacks patronimic names. Weinberg, therefore, could not have been born 'Mieczysław Samuilowicz', this is simply impossible! He called himself Moisey Samuilovich on his arrival in the Soviet Union, as patronimic names were mandatory in that country.
  • If Weinberg was a Polish Jewish, and not Soviet Jewish, composer by vurtue of having been born in Poland, then Irving Berlin surely was a Russian Jewish composer, since he was born in Russia. Both wrote all their body of work in the Soviet Union and USA respectively.
  • He was born into Polish Jewish family in Warsaw. Well, his family was in fact Bessarabian, if that matters (and he identified with Bessarabia - cf. Rhapsody on Moldavian themes). Have you ever heard about an American composer (writer, artist) something like "He was born into an American Jewish family in New York"? This is, of course, very patriotic, but an oxymoron indeed.
  • There are no Russian language sources for the information that he ostensibly converted to Christianity a month before his death! Yet there is information that he was severely depressed and even in declining cognition for a long time before his death, obviating even a possibility of this conversion. The citation (5) refers to a Catholic site, where his ostensible conversion is presented as seeing light in the end of a tunnel, i.e. this is a biased site. In addition, it is highly unreliable informationwise: not only doctor Vovsi was not killed by Stalin and survived Stalin's death, but he was not even an uncle to Weinebrg's wife (he was Mikhoels' cousin), among other mistakes.
  • 'Moisey" is a Russian language rendition of the Hebrew/Yiddish name 'Moishe'. It is not a Russian name as there are no ethnic Russians with this name; it is a Jewish name in Russia (Soviet Union). Weinberg simply used his Jewish name after his arrival in the Soviet Union; this is the name he was given at birth and not the name Mieczysław.
I don't understand the significance you place on the lack of Russian language sources for his conversion. Why is a Russian language source more reliable than an English one? HenryFlower 08:14, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

- There are no other English sources either. If this were indeed true it would make its way prominently into practically any Russian language article on Weinberg - this is culturally a very important (and sensitive) issue in Russia (I can't even stress how important and how sensitive). Yet one cannot find a single reference. In addition, he obviously lived and died in Russia, making Russian sources sort of primary on the details of his life. I'd also like to mention (perhaps it should go into the main text), that he wrote music to some of the most popular cartoons and movies, so that some of his songs are known to any single Russian, adult or child (e.g. from Winnie-the-Pooh); their popularity was/is tremendous.

I wouldn't expect there to be many other sources- he was a relatively minor figure, and very marginal by the time of his death. HenryFlower 15:06, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
There may be enough sources to decide certain controversial questions, and I do (I admit bias but hope this is reasonable enough) suggest that certain statements be removed from the page until they can e.g. be hashed out here, more than one source can be found to support them, etc. Schissel | Sound the Note! 19:26, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
I have no particular interest in whether he died a Jew or a Christian - I think both are equally absurd beliefs - but since we have one source saying he converted and no sources saying he didn't, I see no particular reason to doubt the claim. (And if a Catholic publication were making things up about him, surely they'd say he converted to Catholicism, not to Orthodoxy?). HenryFlower 20:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Orthodoxy is more common in Russia by a goodly amount. But while it doesn't interest me, I would leave it out of the article if it cannot be backed up rather better- especially if, but not only if, it is as important as our other correspondent ("our other correspondent?" how midcentury newspaperly sort-of) says.
I'm more interested in the debate whether he was or wasn't - and is or isn't, two questions, three or more if one asks when - well-known in Russia and the then-Soviet Union, and to whom. You may or may not have noticed but there's a debate here about that too. You may be right about "at the time of his death", and a copy of his obituary (and someone who can read it) would help here.
(I asked a Russian immigrant of very brief acquaintance who I gather was not classically-interested whether she'd heard of Nikolai Myaskovsky- not necessarily much by him, but the name- and her positive answer had a hint of 'of course I have' about it. Such questions interest me but I also believe, rightly or wrongly, that to the extent that they can be well-backed-up - rather better than I just did!! - they have some place in an encyclopedia article. I admit I may be very wrong and provably so by Wikipedia guidelines even... Schissel | Sound the Note! 21:54, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
He certainly wrote popular music for films and the circus, but his serious music was very much out of fashion by the 90s. For a start, this is the rather eminent Manashir Yakubov, in the sleeve notes to the Claves edition of the chamber symphonies: "Destitute, ailing, alone, forgotten, the last tormented days and years of ... Vainberg correspond to the popular stereotype of the classical musician who dies impoverished and abandoned... His 75th birthday in 1994 was neither mentioned by television and newspapers, nor were concerts of his music performed in his honor. It was as if he had ceased to exist. Spiteful tongues could have said that he outlive his music, but even the spiteful tongues had forgotten him".
It's a pity that Per Skans' biography hasn't appeared yet- it was meant to be out last year, but there's still no sign of it on the Toccata Press website.HenryFlower 08:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

- Here's a pretty detailed article in Russian:

http://old.russ.ru/culture/song/20030226_ilya.html

And a little bit here - http://news.oboe.ru/?y=2004&w=50#news933 and here - http://www.gzt.ru/culture/2004/12/07/122400.html (BTW, in this latter interview his friend cellist Berlinsky calls him Metek).

I suspect that's a matter of transliteration rather than Russian spelling or pronunciation. HenryFlower 21:50, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

- Here are 3 more articles where he is called Metek (Метек; in the last one a letter by Georgy Sviridov is cited using Metek): http://www.vestnik.com/issues/97/0916/koi/katseva.htm http://subscribe.ru/archive/russ.culture/200302/27012451.html http://www1.trud.ru/Arhiv/2000/01/21/200001210110505.htm Actually, Metek is diminutive from Mieczyslaw.

Transcription is not an exact science. Metak is the transcription used by Wilson. It really doesn't matter. HenryFlower 08:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Russian names

To Galassi:

Speculations of an "anti-semitic" boarder officer "forcing" Weinberg to accept the name "Moyshey" and a patronymic "Samuilovich" are utterly judgmental, unproved and above all quite ludicrous. I don't know what is exactly the principle you go on in reverting to this uninformed statement all the time. 1. Samuilovich is Weinberg's natural patronymic, based - as all Russian patronymics are - on his father's first name. His father's name was Shmil/Shmuel, which is in Russian Samuil (he had actually been once a Russian citizen), hence Samuilovich. Absolutely every single person in the Soviet Union had a patronymic in his/her passport. This had nothing to do with anyone being "anti-semitic" or otherwise malicious. It would be bizarre if Weinberg was forced to take any other patronymic, say "Petrovich" or "Vasilievich". 2. As every person of Jewish descent, Weinberg had an original Jewish name. Do you suggest his given Jewish name was Mieczysław? In his case this name was "Moishe". He was known by this name in the Yiddish theater, where he was engaged from his childhood on. He used this very name in his articles in the Soviet Yiddish-language magazine Sovetish Heymland. As his Polish name, Weinberg used Mieczysław; as his Russian name he used Moisey (not Moyshey - as you keep on insisting). Perhaps, you have a written proof that the boarder officer was anti-semitic and had a malicious intent in giving Weinberg his very own birth name, but this is simply ludicrous. Weinberg was for the rest of his life known by this name, Moisey, and never attempted to change it to anything else. --SimulacrumDP 20:41, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

FYI: as Polish citizen MV had no patronymic, and there is no evidence he ever had a Yiddish name given to him at birth. He received both in 1939, MoiSHei under these specific bordercrossing circumstances, as stated by Per Scans in the liner notes to MV's Chandos CD. So we are expecting you to reinsert the paragagph appropriatelyGalassi 22:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

He immigrated into the Soviet Union, on his own will (regardless of difficult circumstances): do you suggest he was supposed to become Soviet citizen without getting a mandatory traditional patronymic there? This is absurd: every Soviet citizen had a patronymic and he became a Soviet citizen and chose to stay in the Soviet Union when after the War former Polish citizens had an opportunity to return to Poland. If you, for one, met him and spoke to him in Russian, you would be forced to call him Moisey Samuilovich, because not using a patronymic is rude, irreverent and impolite in that language!!! As to evidence, it's quite the opposite: there is no evidence that he didn't receive a Jewish (it's Hebrew, BTW, not Yiddish) name at birth, for not receiving it would be extremely out of ordinary! Moreover, unheard of in Poland! As to the Yiddish - yes, that was his native language, he worked in the Yiddish theater and married into the family of the greatest-ever Soviet star of the Yiddish theater, one Shloyme Mikhoels. And yes, he published in Sovetish Heymland in Yiddish under the name "Moyshe" (no anti-Semitic member of the editorial board of this Yiddish-language magazine forced him to sign with this name). Moreover, there is no MoiShei in the Russian language: his name was Moisey (Моисей). Shostakovich called him Моисей Самуилович (Moisey Samuilovich), Sviridov did the same[1]. And finally, it is highly doubtful that he ever crossed any border at all! A great number of Polish Jews, running away from the worsening situation, simply went into the Polish territory that was getting unnexed by the Soviet Union and then became part of the Soviet Belorussia and Ukraine. Just hold back for a jiffy and think about a patronymic being forced onto a naturalized Soviet citizen! --SimulacrumDP 01:33, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Consult Russian Wiki.Galassi 02:01, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Common, this is childish. You may add whatever until it's removed. It's not just a game, there has never been such a name Moishey - it's an English misspelling of two names together: Moishe and Moisey; simply got perpetuated. Moisey Samuilovich Vaynberg features in several hundred Russian-language sites! Don't get it personal, but by this kind of action you go against historicity and show disrespect for the composer. Let's just end this, I wrote a neutral passage, which simply avoids labels like "anti-Semitic" and other unproved notions...--SimulacrumDP 02:19, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kishinev Pogrom and Weinberg

Does anyone know where does this information about Weinberg's grandfather and greatgrandfather having been murdered during the Kishinev Pogrom come from? Here's the list of the Pogrom's victims: Victims list, there are 46 victims here, true - some resources mention 49 victims, still - there's no one by the name "Vaynberg" in the list and there's only one combination of two males with the same surnames: Krupnik. It strongly appears that this information isn't reliable, the family may have suffered in the Pogrom, lost property, but no murders... --SimulacrumDP 01:54, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The sleevenotes to volume 2 of the Chandos symphonies mention that "some members of his family" were killed then. The notes are by Per Skans, who was the authority on Weinberg, so I'll change the article to reflect what we do know. Incidentally, his maternal relatives are unlikely to have been called Weinberg, so looking for that name only covers half the options. :) HenryFlower 17:12, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Biography

In answer to my own thought above about the non-appearance of the Per Skans biography, it turns out that he died in January before finishing it. The book is now unlikely to appear before 2009. [2] HenryFlower 16:53, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Musical style

Galassi, a couple of points to bear in mind:

- the distinction between programmatic and absolute music has nothing to to with the influence of folk elements; they're completely separate issues. So even if you're right on the absolute music issue, that's no reason to remove reference to folk elements.

- the distinction between programmatic and absolute music is a matter of degree, not of either/or. Saying that his music has 'qualities of the absolute' means only that it's not completely programmatic, which one could also say about pretty much every composer who ever lived. It's not a distinguishing feature. If that's the best account that Grove can come up with (I don't have it to hand), it's an uncharacteristic moment of muddle; could you tell us exactly what it says? I can't make head or tail of "– quality" - what is that meant to mean? That the music has some (unspecified) qualities? That it's of good quality? Whatever you want to say, that needs to be phrased better. HenryFlower 09:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

There are a few fallacies and misperceptions in that passage, which I would try to correct in the Grove's style. BTW, MW had no exposure to Klezmer (which is an American phenomenon, and has little in common with Jewish folk music). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Galassi (talk • contribs) 13:17, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

You're right that klezmer wasn't the best article to link to - at the time this section was written the Jewish music article didn't exist. I've fixed that now. (Incidentally your conception of klezmer music is very different from any I've come across before, and very different from our article's, but that's a question for another time). HenryFlower 08:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The Grove passage, which I've tracked down, isn't really very illuminating on the programmatic/absolute issue, basically saying that his works contain both programmatic and absolute elements:

"his works are often based on a programme, largely autobiographical in nature, and they reflect on the fate of the composer and of humanity in general. ... The imagery of many of his works is connected with his memories of his childhood and of World War II, and consequently themes relating to the destruction of childhood (and, by extension, purity, serenity and stability) are central to his aesthetic and are frequently symbolized by the musical material. Despite this, Weinberg strove for a reflection of a philosophy of universal harmony and unity by means of neo-classical, rationalist clarity and proportion. For all the importance of the word, the programmatical nature of many works and the occasional Slavic and Jewish thematic materials, his music has an absolute – even abstract – quality, with similar themes able to assume varied semantic hues in given environments."

The one point there that might be worth mentioning is the idea of transformation of elements, in the mention of 'symbolization' and 'varied semantic hues'; a straight quotation would probably be better than trying to paraphrase. HenryFlower 09:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)