Talk:Middle way

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Contents

[edit] Introduction to The Middle Way

The Ancient Concept of The Middle Way


“The Middle Way” is one of the most ancient concepts of meditation in the world even before the Buddha time. Long lost to humanity, it was rediscovered by Buddha more than 2,500 years ago.


Lord Buddha referred to “The Middle Way” as a path that leads to enlightenment by avoiding the two extremes of sensual indulgence and self-mortification. And from avoiding both extremes, one will gain vision and knowledge that leads to Peace, Supreme Knowledge and Enlightenment.


However, according to many well-known Meditation Masters, the real knowledge of meditation practice on the path of “The Middle Way” had been lost from this world for about 500 years after the passing away of the Lord Buddha.

The Re-discovery of The Middle Way

“The Middle Way” concept of meditation became lucid and more practical to meditation practitioners again in 1916 after the attainment of “Dhammakaya” of Luang Pu Wat Paknam (The late Abbot of Wat Paknam), a renowned Buddhist Monk and a celebrated Meditation Master.

Luang Pu is the one who laid his life down in the condition of gaining the supreme truth of The Lord Buddha. In 1916, at the age of 33, he had sat down in the posture of meditation and made a vow that he would never rise up again and sat till death if he could not find the supreme truth of the Lord Buddha. And with his strong determination, he meditated the whole night until he finally revealed the real path and the body of supreme truth, “The Middle Way and The Dhammakaya”.

To the anonymous editor who wrote the above:
It is wonderful that you have found a meditation practice that you have found fruitful. It sounds too like you have found a medtiation teacher (and his followers) who are charismatic and have some knowledge of the DhammaVinaya. (For instance, your second paragraph above is accurate.)
Please recognize though that it is not unusual for a Buddhist monastic or former monastic to create an idiosyncratic or specialized mediation style that has given them special experiences and that thousands of people have subsequently found enormously beneficial. To see truly popular examples of such, for instance, please see Jack Kornfield's "Living Dharma: Teachings of Twelve Buddhist Masters" (1996). (And, honestly, when I myself first started my Theravada practice, it was under the instruction of a deeply loving former Theravada monastic who now teaches an amalgam of Buddha Love/Jesus Love.)
Please also recognize that the narrative you have associated with this specialized meditation style is certainly not consistent with the Buddha's Dhamma and that it is not widely accepted by Buddhists. While, for instance, the use of the phrase "Middle Way" to describe your teachers' style is "catchy" and "clever," it would be misleading to attempt to convince others that this is the real Buddhist notion of Middle Way. Personally, I feel that your statements above -- which, by the way, have a pleasant neutral tone to them -- attempt to convey that this idiosyncratic meditation style is consistent with ancient teachings, but there appears to be no proof of this. Thus, your putting such forth in this manner appears, at best, naive and, at worst (and I hope you can understand how others might see it this way), disingenuous. (For WP readers who are new to Buddhism, the following WP articles convey more traditional and authentic Buddhist meditation practices: Buddhist meditation, Anapanasati Sutta, Satipatthana Sutta, Vipassana, Samatha, Metta, Shikantaza, Zazen, Koan, Mandala, Tonglen and Tantra.)
So, please stop trying to incorporate words (as well as blatant advertisements) associated with this non-traditional practice in this encyclopedia article. I would like to suggest that such text might be more appropriate in an article on your particular Wat or community.
May you be well and happy,
LarryR 17:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Essence of Dhammakaya

The word “Dhammakaya” is an ancient word means the Body of Enlightenment (Dhamma means the truth or the enlightenment and Kaya means body). This term was found many places in many old Buddhist scriptures both in Theravada and Mahayana schools. It is not the new term or new theory from the Teaching of the Lord Buddha.


Dhammakaya is the body that transformed Prince Sidhatta to The Lord Buddha. The enlightenment of the historical Buddha is explained as his mind became perfectly refined and purified to the same level of the refinement and purity of the Dhammakaya, and thus attains the body of enlightenment. The Dhammakaya is therefore seen as central to the Teaching of the Lord Buddha.


Dhammakaya is a source of peace, wisdom and true happiness, exists in all human beings and can be attained through the process of self-refinement and self-purification.


Dhammakaya Meditation Technique


Dhammakaya Meditation Technique was rediscovered by Luang Pu Wat Paknam, the late Abbot of Wat Paknam. With his great work of meditation, he found that the station of stillness or the gateway of The Middle Way is at “The Center of the Body” around two-finger width above the navel. And the center of the body is the best point that any meditation practitioner should lay the mind down upon.


The technique is simple but effective. Just keep your body and mind relaxed and maintain your attention slightly at the center of the body. Once you touch or feel the station of stillness at the center of your body, you will experience inner peace, true happiness and the transforming power that Dhammakaya Meditation can provide for every aspect of your life.


Although Dhammakaya Meditation was developed as a technique by the Lord Buddha, its practice is not limited to Buddhists. The practice has nothing to do with any organized religion or sectarianism. For this reason, it can be freely practiced by everyone without conflict due to race, creed or religion. People from many religious backgrounds have experienced the benefits of Dhammakaya Meditation and have found no conflict with their profession of faith

Please find more story of Middle Way Dhammakaya Meditation from: http://www.dhammakaya.or.th http://www.meditationthai.org http://www.suanpetchkaew.com Or Samarth Pochachan info@mcc.co.th

Please see the prior entry's discussion regarding non-traditional practices.
Since this is a talk page, blatant advertisements and misappropriated concepts will not be deleted. But for non-Buddhists who might happen upon this entry and think there is an element of ancient authority to it, please understand that there is not.
This is not to say that this entry's meditation practice might not be an effective meditation practice -- it is similar to many other practices. For instance, the "two fingers above the navel" instruction sounds similar to a traditional Zen instruction of "two fingers below the navel," although admittedly the former might be aiming at the diaphragm whereas the latter aims for the hara. Truthfully, dozens of points in the body can be chosen. The Thai Forest tradition identifies six or seven. I also remember a Buddhist monk talking about his first teacher using the hands as a point of mediation.
Regardless, to claim that such an idiosyncratic practice is associated with the ancient notions of the Middle Way does a disservice to Wikipedia readers and, many would say, does a disservice to the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. (Traditional Buddhist would label such as "wrong view.")
Best wishes,
LarryR 17:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Orthodoxy

I was not aware that the Middle way was the same as the Eightfold Path, or at least sufficiently similar to justify the phrase "It however would be more accurate to see it as another name for the Noble Eightfold Path", regardless of the quote supplied to justify it.

Removed text:

It however would be more accurate to see it as another name for the Noble Eightfold Path.

"The middle way discovered by a Perfect One avoids both these extremes; it gives vision, it gives knowledge, and it leads to peace, to direct acquaintance, to discovery, to nibbana. And what is that middle way? It is simply the noble eightfold path, that is to say, right view, right intention; right speech, right action, right livelihood; right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. That is the middle way discovered by a Perfect One, which gives vision, which gives knowledge, and which leads to peace, to direct acquaintance, to discovery, to nibbana." Gautama Buddha from the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.

I am removing both and invite comments on the matter below. Rentwa 14:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I have also removed a see also link to the Third way which has nothing at all to do with the Middle Way. Rentwa 09:25, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent article expansion

Over the last day and a half, I expanded this article to the point of nearly re-writing it. Up until yesterday, the article had the following text:

The Middle Way or Middle Path (Sanskrit Madhyama Marga, Pali Majjhima Magga) is the Buddhist philosophy expounded by Gautama Buddha. Sometimes summarised as the practice of non-extremism; a path of moderation away from the extremes of self-indulgence and opposing self-mortification. This path was first articulated by the Buddha in the second verse of his first discourse, the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.

Right now, the article looks like this[1].

Honestly, in my mind, when I've passed over this article in the past, I felt this initial text was sufficient and did not feel compelled to do any massive editing. But then, during the last week, I saw the above text doubled in size due to a retreat-center advertisement and associated text that, from the stance of Buddhism's 2500 year tradition, misappropriated the concept of "Middle Way" for a non-Buddhist meditation practice reportedly developed last century. So, to put it nicely, I decided that the best way to address such a misrepresentation of this core Buddhist concept was to expand this article with accurate (to the degree I'm capable and inclined to do) information that proportionally represents this 2500-year-old concept. (Though, admittedly, I'm embarrassingly weak on Mahayana/Vajrayana material. I'd be grateful for any intelligent expansion of this pitiful section.)

In so doing, against my editorially conservative instincts (that is, I try to avoid changing what others have justifiably written), I significantly rewrote the above original text. Here, I want to explain why I felt it was important to do so.

1. Changing "(Sanskrit Madhyama Marga, Pali Majjhima Magga)" to "(Skt.: madhyamā-pratipad; Pali: majjhimā patipadā)"

Frankly, I intuited that the Pali for "Middle Way" was also "Majjhima Magga" (probably because of "ariya aṭṭhangika magga," the Noble Eightfold Path) but I checked the Dhammacakka Sutta and the PED and two other Buddhist dictionaries and they all say that it's actually: madhyamā-pratipad and majjhimā patipadā. The PED also indicates that "patipada" is a synonym for "magga" but, in the seminal sutta, it was patipada that was used. (If I find a sutta that mentions "majjhima magga" then I'll add it back in.)

2. Eliding "expounded by Gautama Buddha"

I'm not sure that the Madhyamaka (or even the Zen) notions of "Middle Way" can be traced back to the Buddha but, instead to Nagarjuna. Thus, I moved the attribution to the Buddha to the Theravada-specific section.

3. Changed "Sometimes summarised" to "In general"

The introductory paragraph, especially after the recent major expansion, is necessarily a summary, thus to explicitly state so is redundant. Additionally, the stated summary does not need to be qualified by "sometimes" -- it has universal applicability and is supported by Kohn (1991). The phrase "In general" was additionally added to contrast with the next paragraph's phrase, "More specifically."

4. Changed "self-indulgence" to "sensual indulgence"

This better aligns with the actual Pali (kama [senses] vs. atta [self]). Moreover, when we look at Buddhist concepts such as attachment, I think it is more meaningful to talk specifically about the pleasure-creating six sense bases instead of an abstract notion of "self."

5. Elided "Buddhist philosophy"

I think this might be the most controversial edit. What ultimately led to my removing this was that, after making all the aforementioned changes, the term "Buddhist philosophy" appeared onerous and somewhat redundant. Moreover, frankly, I believe that many Theravada Buddhists might balk at this Western terminology since the Pali canon's "Middle Way" is really about finding happiness and liberation (perhaps more "Buddhist psychology," although even that misses the mark) as opposed to an attempt to articulate universal metaphysical truths. I was hoping that as long as I left the Category "Buddhist philosophical concepts" at the bottom of the page, people who are inclined to view this "philosophically" won't mind this deletion.

6. Moved information regarding the Dhammacakka Sutta

This was text I added to the singular initial paragraph back in mid-November (though I subsequently saw that another editor attempted to add similar information previously). Because this information is specific to the Nikayas, I moved this to a subsection in the expanded article (which I subsequently saw was in line with Rentwa's prior recommendation).

I think this covers it. Any questions or protests or feedback, please let me know here or on my talk page. Thanks. With metta, LarryR (talk) 04:29, 2 December 2006 (UTC) [Updated 13:01, 2 December 2006 (UTC)]

[edit] Nibbana?

In the second quoted paragraph in the first section, not including the intro, the word 'Nibbana' is used. Is this word in use? Or is it an error/vandalism? J Milburn 02:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for asking (instead of just editing away, as some do :-) ). "Nibbana" is Pali for "Nirvana" (which is a Sanskrit word). If you click on the wikilink for "Nibbana" in this article, it will lead you to an article entitled "Nirvana" which states in its first sentence:
Nirvāṇa (Devanagari निर्वाण, Pali: Nibbāna निब्बान -- Chinese: 涅槃; Pinyin: nièpán, Japanese: nehan, Korean: 열반, yeol-bhan, Thai: Nibpan นิพพาน ), is a Sanskrit word from India that literally means extinction (as in a candle flame) and/or extinguishing (i.e. of the passions).
Generally, it seems to me that when people write about Theravada Buddhist beliefs or the Pali canon, they will use the Pali word "Nibbana." In this article's first introductory paragraph, I chose the word "Nirvana" because overall this article is intended to be pan-Buddhist (that is, including Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana perspectives) and, for English-speakers, the word "Nirvana" is hopefully recognizeable. However, in the Theravada section, for the aforementioned reasons, I did not alter Piyadassi's use of the word "Nibbana" and I perpetuated it elsewhere in the Theravada-specific section of the article.
I hope this sounds reasonable. If not, please let me know here or on my talk page. Thank you again. With metta, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 12:43, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Middle Way" vs. "Middle way"

I just re-capitalized the first letters of "Middle Way" and "Middle Path" because this is the way these phrases appear in the referenced source texts by Harvey (2007) and Dhamma (1997), respectively. Also a quick review of the first few pages of a Google search on "Middle Way" suggests that majority of non-WP, Buddhism-related pages capitalize this phrase's initial letters (although this is far from universal). So, while I think this article should maintain capitalization of the initial letters, I'm wondering if this means that this article should be moved over the redirect Middle Way? Thanks for any feedback, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 20:38, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mahayana

There's hardly anything about this. In particular, no evidence is given to support the claim of the 1st para that the term is used in different senses between it & Theravada. Peter jackson (talk) 11:51, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

The article identifies that, in the Pali Canon, the phrase "majjhimā paṭipadā" refers to a middle path between practicing self-mortification and dwelling in sensual pleasure. The referenced Mahayana uses are different, e.g., Nāgārjuna seems to use it to define a path between eternalism and annhilationism, and Tendai between Mahayana notions of "emptiness" and some form of materialism.
Given your concern, to further assess this article's intro's claim against the actual texts, later today I'll scan the Pali Canon (e.g., La Trobe U. search -- these are matches of the nominative case -- I've yet to find any matches on other declensions, e.g., -aya, -o, -aṃ -- though if you know of Pali-canonical passages using a non-nominative case, I'd very much appreciate your identifying them) to see if there are Pali-canonical uses similar to those identified here by Mahayana schools. I'll report back here (and perhaps include a related note in this article) about any results of this search.
Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 14:16, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Canonical instances of majjhimā paṭipadā

Based on the aforementioned search of the SLTP Pali Canon for majjhimā paṭipadā, the following suttas were identified:

  • MN 3 (Eng. trans.) - again equates majjhimā paṭipadā with the Noble Eightfold Path (though does not identify why the "Middle Path" uses the word "middle," i.e., between what antipodes)
  • MN 139 (Eng. trans.) - an elaboration on SN 56.11's core text regarding majjhimā paṭipadā (as well as other things)
  • SN 42.12 (Eng. trans., SLTP 41.1.12) - includes SN 56.11's core text regarding majjhimā paṭipadā followed by an elaboration on praiseworthy and reproachable aspects of a lay and ascetic lives.
  • SN 56.11 (e.g., Harvey, 2007) - the touchstone text re: middle path between lives of sense-pleasure and self-mortification, instantiated by the Noble Eightfold Path.
  • AN 3.157 - 3.163(?) (Eng. trans.; in SLTP Pali, starting at 3.6.1) - In general, as with SN 56.11 and the other suttas, it defines majjhimā paṭipadā as the middle path between indulging in sensual pleasures (which in this translation is referred to as "the hard way") and self-mortification ("the wasting away method," somewhat graphically described). The first sutta of this group then identifies the middle path with the the four satipatthana (in Pali, 1st para.); the second sutta (SLTP 3.6.2) with the Four Right Exertions; and so on, including what appears to be all seven sets of the Bodhipakkhiyadhamma -- in other words, culminating (SLTP 3.6.7) in the Noble Eightfold Path.

There are two references to the Visuddhimagga in the above-mentioned La Trobe U. search. While I'm late for an important call right now, I'll look into those Vsm texts in the next couple of hours -- perhaps these will provide the expected link between the Theravada and Mahayana conceptuatlizations.... With metta, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 20:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vsm refs to majjhimā paṭipadā

Based on the above-mentioned La Trobe U. search (using the nominative of majjhimā paṭipadā), the Visuddhimagga (Vsm) includes two instances:

  • Vsm. VII, 75: in the section on "Recollection of the Dhamma," on why it is "Well Proclaimed" (svākkhāto), it essentially identifies the "noble path" (ariyamaggo) with majjhimā paṭipadā
  • Vsm. XVII, 22-24: in a section discussing the meaning of paticca-samuppada, para. 24 states (from the Nanamoli 1999 BPE ed., p. 531):
The two [words, i.e., paticca and samuppada] together: since any given states are produced without interrupting the [cause-fruit] continuity of any given combination of conditions, the whole expression 'dependent origination' (paticca-samuppada) represents the middle way, which rejects the doctrines, 'He who acts is he who reaps' and 'One acts while another reaps' (S.ii.20), and which is the proper way described thus, 'Not insisting on local language and not overriding normal usage' (M.iii.234). [Boldface added.]

Well, this latter citation could perhaps be used to support that a (post-canonical) Theravada source provides an elaboration upon majjhimā paṭipadā in a manner consistent with Nagarjuna. (Given that the Visuddhimagga was written centuries after Nagarjuna, is it possible that the Visuddhimagga and its predecessors incorporated Nagarjuna's thinking?) I guess one possible question is does this latter citation's reference to majjhimā paṭipadā necessarily refer to the "Middle Way" ... but Harvey's at least seems to think so....

[edit] Okay, Peter, you're right!

Given the latter citation in the Visuddhimagga and Harvey's text (is it possible Harvey based his text on the Visuddhimagga regarding this and simply extrapolated back to the Suttapitaka?), in the next two days, I'll try to change this article's intro (and other text) so that it does not suggest a dichotomy as it does now. Or, of course, Peter or anyone else, feel free to do so before/in tandem with me.

Peter, was this what you were getting at? If so, thanks for pointing the way. Otherwise, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. Thanks again (GTG),
Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 21:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Partly as suggested above, I've added text that identifies that in the Pali commentaries (Spk., Vsm.) the term "Middle Way" is used to refer to dependent origination's path through eternalism and annihilationism; and, I've modified the intro to show that this viewpoint is not only part of Mahayana/Vajrayana views but also this later Pali literature. I hope this is satisfactory. With metta, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 04:28, 12 March 2008 (UTC)