Talk:Middle school

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is part of WikiProject Education, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of education and education-related topics. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to featured and 1.0 standards, or visit the WikiProject page for more details.
Portal
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

	This article is related to WikiProject Schools, an attempt to write quality articles about schools around the world. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the assessment scale.	Schools Portal
High	This article has been rated as High-Importance within Schools.
Assessment: Hello all, and thank you for contributing to this school article. I'm part of the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Schools/Assessment team, and I'm reviewing this page. I'm currently giving it a grade of Start on the Wikipedia 1.0 Assessment Scale and an importance of High on this importance scale. For information on improving this article, please visit the WikiProject Schools Project Page. My reasoning is as follows: Needs a lot more referencing. Also needs some rewording. Adam McCormick (talk) 01:54, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Comments from Talk:Junior high school have been incorporated here. Unless and until Junior high school exists as a real article--something other than a redirect or a false fork of this article, please do not recreate its talk page. Thank you.

[edit] Article should be split.

CowboyJMB: I believe that this article should be split in two, as the Junior High School and Middle schools are clearly different systems. (comment by 69.242.11.15, 2 September, 2005)

It appears from the article that, it a lot of the world, they're essentially interchangable. I think it makes the most sense to have Junior high school redirect here, unless someone has some arguments for separating them. -GTBacchus 02:58, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Polish Gimazjum (Gymnasium) is a type of middle school. exe 09:24, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

The 'United States' section makes my head hurt when I try to read it. {unsignedIP|70.68.181.169|00:03, 10 March 2006 }}

I agree that it should be split. When can we do it? (MrsMacMan 14:55, 13 June 2007 (UTC))

MrsMacMan--you're replying to comments from 2005. Perhaps you should focus on replying to comments from this year. And as I stated on my talk page, when can't happen until there's consensus for it. And a way forward. There's been no explanation so far of how the systems are different, and there's no differentiation within the article, so a split is not only not obvious, but I would have no clue of how it could be done without further information. Perhaps you could add a new section to the talk page of why you think two articles are needed? Give us some of the facts, some of the content that would be needed to do it? Miss Mondegreen talk  15:06, June 13 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Middle vs Junior High debate

A drive-by user said in Talk:Middle school that he thought that this article should be split off, but, having read the Middle school article, I disagree. I don't see a lot of difference between Junior high and Middle school, except that they call it one thing in some places, and something else in others. Unless or until someone comes up with a good reason to split, I'm reinstating the redirect. A better strategy right now might be to expand the Middle school article, maybe elaborate on the differences, and thus simultaneously build a case for splitting, and create material for the putative new article, so it can be less stubby when and if it's written. Until then... -GTBacchus 03:06, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Junior high school should have it's own article. Middle school shouldn't have their own article. After all the term junior high school did came first. So why should middle school take over? That doesn't make sense. School districts often replace junior high schools with middle schools when demographic factors increase the number of younger students. That's the only reason why middle schools existed. I am changing the middle school article to junior high school. It makes much more sense this way. (MrsMacMan 16:06, 12 June 2007 (UTC))

I have brought the article back to Middle school -Junior High is a term used almost exclusively in North America, but this is a global encyclopedia; this is a much more inclusive term. If Junior High is so important then perhaps it needs its own entry. However, you'll notice that there is not a "National Junior High Schools Association" or anything similar listed. Tafkam 19:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

So...there is not a "National Middle Schools Association" either. What's your point? Middle school is often used instead of junior high school when demographic factors increase the number of younger students. Just because middle school is often used instead of junior high school doesn't make it not a junior high school. It is still called a junior high school. The only difference is that it has younger students. And also middle school doesn't include older students. Junior high school includes younger and older students. Middle school is a special name for schools that have younger students. Junior high school is more inclusive b/c it includes everything. (MrsMacMan 19:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC))

Actually, there is a "National Middle Schools Association" in the US, and the "National Middle Schools' Forum" in the UK - both are linked to from the article itself. Again, I would argue that the term 'middle school' refers to all types of school offering education to the middle years, including junior high schools, intermediate schools, etc. "Junior High" cannot be an inclusive label since they do not exist outside the US. I will not re-revert at this stage, but will seek further advise. I really don't think this is an appropriate move. Tafkam 19:47, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

But..Middle school is often used instead of junior high school when demographic factors increase the number of younger students. I provided a reference for this. You work in a middle school so you should know more than I do. Isn't there more younger students at a middle school? That's because schools in the UK is called middle schools because they have younger students there. It's still called a junior high school too. Does UK have younger students in the middle schools? I don't go there but I guess they do since it's called a middle school. How is it US-centric? It is true that middle schools are for younger students. right? (MrsMacMan 19:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC))

I work in a UK middle school. Ours are called middle schools whatever age range they cover. However, as I say from an international viewpoint there are several organisations which cover all 'middle years' age ranges, but use the term 'middle' rather than 'junior high', for example:

• National Middle Schools Association in US [1]
• Middle Schools' Forum in UK [2]
• European League for Middle Level Education [3]

On this premise, it seems to me that internationally 'middle' is the more appropriate term. Tafkam 20:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure that in the UK, they call it a middle school for specific reasons. You just assume that UK calls it all middle schools. Is there a reference or a source to this claim saying that it is only called middle schools? Well in the United States, middle schools is only referred when there are younger students. Most high schools are called senior high schools but it's not always used. Does that mean it's not a senior high school? Of course not. It is still called a senior high school. It's just not used as much. (MrsMacMan 20:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC))

I live in the UK; I research three-tier education, I teach in a UK Middle School. There are only 3 legal definitions of school's in the UK: Primary (which includes schools for pupils up to age 11), Secondary (for pupils aged 12+) and Middle, which covers any groups in the centre of that range. You'll notice if you search the UK government education establishment database that currently only one open school in the UK calls itself a 'Junior High' school, but that it too is classified by the government as a middle school [4]

Notwithstanding that, my argument is not that the article should reflect UK views, but rather that it should represent the most common international term. Even a simple Google search reveals 29 million hits for "Middle School" compared to just over 1 million for "Junior High school", despite the US-centric nature of the web. I really cannot see a single argument for placing the page at 'Junior High' in preference to 'Middle'

Perhaps the opinion of a third editor should be sought? Tafkam 20:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

In other countries, they call it a junior high school..it just takes a matter of time for other countries to catch up. Maybe it's just the UK that calls it a middle school. Maybe they will change it soon. (MrsMacMan 20:44, 12 June 2007 (UTC))

Firstly, junior high is an older name than middle school (as stated in the article, the first middle school WAS a junior high. Middle Schools are relatively new in Australia - they call them middle schools, not junior high. Regardless, my argument is NOT to claim that middle schools and junior high schools are the same thing, but rather that the general term 'middle school' can be seen to include junior high schools, while the reverse is not true. Tafkam 20:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

See..you even admit that the first middle school was a junior high school. Middle schools originally came from junior high school. So why can't the article be called junior high school? Why do you still disagree? (MrsMacMan 02:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC))

Because the article should reflect mainly current usage. The first schools were originally church schools - that doesn't mean we redirect all schooling articles to the Church of England article! The point I have continually made, and which you have continually ignored, is the fact that 'middle schools' is a much more widely-recognised term internationally; and this is an international encyclopedia. Surely 29million vs 1million Google entries is enough to tell you that? Tafkam 06:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I have sought a third opinion (WP:3O) Tafkam 06:25, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Third opinion - The debate has two clear aspects I'd like to address:

• A Junior High School is a subset middle schools, but the opposite does not apply. Given a choice between the two, Middle School would appear to be a more useful term because it could cover schools that are the second of a three-tier system but are not necessarily high schools, whereas Junior High School would not.
• While I agree that Middle School is more widely used from an international perpective, there is still a valid argument that the term is UK- and euro-centric similarly to how one could argue that Junior High School is US-centric. For instance, I attended both a junior and senior secondary high school here in Australia, but I've never heard of anyone calling the junior secondary school Middle School.

Of the two titles, I think Middle School is more appropriate. However given the level and nature of sensitivities involved in this debate (Brits don't want to use a Yank term for their schools, and vice versa), perhaps use of an impartial term such as Intermediate School is warranted in this case? ^{SkyIsFalling 10:31, 13 June 2007 (UTC)}

How is middle school more appropriate than junior high school and intermediate school? You said after "given the level and nature of sensitivities involved in this debate". So middle school is inappropriate then. You made a mistake. (MrsMacMan 15:08, 13 June 2007 (UTC))

I think that UK needs to compromise with the rest of the world. The rest of the world agrees with junior high school but no....they are against the US on the idea of calling a junior high school. Can't we all be friends and just stick with one term? It gets so confusing to the reader. (MrsMacMan 15:41, 13 June 2007 (UTC))

I am pleased to see the change. For the record, I have nothing against the use of the term 'Junior High'. Indeed, I'd be happier to see the two articles separated - but evidence has suggested that folk in the states (pretty much the only place where both names are used) do not believe that there is sufficient difference between the two. Consequently, it seems sensible to me to use the more common international term as an umbrella term. I agree that it is confusing having two terms for such similar institutes (indeed 3 if one includes intermediate), but prefer to use the widest definition to encompass the others. Thank you for the comments of third parties. Tafkam 17:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I thought that the difference between Jr. High and Middle School was the curriculum, because I am a student who originally attended a Middle School, and was eventually supposed to move on to a "High School" but instead my mother lived closer to a Jr. High, and therefore I went there and it seems I am relearning every class except Orchestra and Math. Another thing is, my counselor stated that Jr. High Schools are set from 7-9 so 9th graders don't have to worry about kids who shave and drive cars already. This (as of now due to gas prices) isn't a really great idea for the time-being. However, my counselor also stated that tests made it "easier" for the Jr. High kids, did they set the curriculum to meet state/national standards but put them back behind Middle/High Schols? Thecutnut (talk) 09:21, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pedagogy - a N American view?

I'm interested to read the pedagogy section that has been added - and generally agree with its principles. However, I'm not convinced that it's in the right place. I suspect that the pedagogy might refer to the principles of the movement in North America, or perhaps Australia. It certainly doesn't align with those of Middle Schools in England. For a start, ours cover quite a different age range (limited to being ages 8-13, rather than 10-15); likewise, other features of that section like the mention of "authentic assessment" are very US-centric. Never heard of it in the UK. (But then, I think our assessment was always more authentic than the US anyway) Tafkam 10:17, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The thinking behind this is that the article might be structured in two parts: the first as an explanation of the theory of middle schooling, and secondly, how middle schools are done around the world.

The first part would be split between the two pedagogies: a mere 'business as usual' 'bricks and mortar' version, and the 'Middle School as a pedagogy'. This latter pedagogy can't be North American if it also appears in Australia.

The second part would be divided into continents, or simply alphabetically. This would give how the different pedagogies play out in different countries I guess we are are part of a longer project, that will need contributions from different countries (eg Europe is just former Yugoslavia and Britain, so far!)

I've got some what contributors might consider offering material which I'll be offering in about a week, but today was to make a start.Adrian Glamorgan 11:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I can see your thinking, but might this article not become a little unwieldy? Perhaps what is needed is a more general overview, including the sort of addition you've made, and the for the relevant national sections to be incorporated into the Education by country articles? Tafkam 17:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Middle school vs. Junior high school

Is the term junior high school still common as it was 10 years ago?? Georgia guy 21:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

As the article states, the terms have become less synonymous over time, but that isn't because one has necessarily supplanted the other. Both terms seem to be in common use, it's just that they increasingly mean something different and specific. Whether there are more middle schools and less junior high schools than there were ten years ago -- which would affect how common the terms were used, I suppose -- may be countable, but there are too many factors to consider here. Some schools have gone from a Junior High School model to a Middle School model; some have gone the other way; changes in population and other factors continue to cause restructuring in many districts. Jfarber 18:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

And of course, all of that is from an entirely US-centric model - we never had the 'Junior High' label here in the UK Tafkam 20:22, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

True dat. But given the americanism "guy" in the username, it seemed safe to assume he's not askin' from Georgia, the village in Cornwall. Jfarber 21:51, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Middle school and junior high school is the same thing. A senior high school is a school attended after junior high school. I think it would be confusing saying middle school. Junior high and senior high are almost the same thing. They both offer electives unlike an elementary school. Junior and senior high schools are similar. It is just showing the differences between elementary school and junior or senior high school. (209.177.21.6 - talk)

I go to a 7-12th grade high school, and I'm confused by these terms. Is a school that goes from 7-12th not a high school? Or is it just not a Senior high school? The schools aren't divided. ɱўɭĩє^{What did I do}_wrong 17:52, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

A high school is a school attended after elementary school, usually comprising grades nine through twelve. If the 7-12 school is attended after elementary school, then it is considered a high school. If your school system doesn't have a junior high school, then it's not a senior high school. Hope that clears it up. (MrsMacMan 18:59, 12 June 2007 (UTC))

Except of course, they're clearly not! For a start, middle schools exist in the UK, and junior high schools don't. Don't forget this is supposed to be an international encyclopedia! Tafkam 21:21, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

One way to handle this would be to rework the U.S. part of the article to include a history of the junior-high school concept, followed by the shift to the middle-school concept. (This also could be spun off into an article on the U.S. system for this age group.) While the educational community recognizes that they are separate philosophies each with its own history, it's quite true that to the layperson, it appears to be a mere name change. I'll try to work up something and put it in... I have an article in front of me from the Dallas Morning News in 1929 discussing the newest trend, the junior high school, and a speaker from the state university who addressed why Dallas should join in the movement.Lawikitejana (talk) 22:52, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Age ranges

I'm not from the US or North America, and after reading this article, I have no idea what age ranges middle school may involve (besides the extreme limits of “not older than high school” and “not younger than grade school.”) This article needs that information. 89.62.97.47 15:11, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pedagogy - a N American view?

I'm interested to read the pedagogy section that has been added - and generally agree with its principles. However, I'm not convinced that it's in the right place. I suspect that the pedagogy might refer to the principles of the movement in North America, or perhaps Australia. It certainly doesn't align with those of Middle Schools in England. For a start, ours cover quite a different age range (limited to being ages 8-13, rather than 10-15); likewise, other features of that section like the mention of "authentic assessment" are very US-centric. Never heard of it in the UK. (But then, I think our assessment was always more authentic than the US anyway) Tafkam 10:17, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The thinking behind this is that the article might be structured in two parts: the first as an explanation of the theory of middle schooling, and secondly, how middle schools are done around the world.

The first part would be split between the two pedagogies: a mere 'business as usual' 'bricks and mortar' version, and the 'Middle School as a pedagogy'. This latter pedagogy can't be North American if it also appears in Australia.

The second part would be divided into continents, or simply alphabetically. This would give how the different pedagogies play out in different countries I guess we are are part of a longer project, that will need contributions from different countries (eg Europe is just former Yugoslavia and Britain, so far!)

I've got some what contributors might consider offering material which I'll be offering in about a week, but today was to make a start.Adrian Glamorgan 11:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I can see your thinking, but might this article not become a little unwieldy? Perhaps what is needed is a more general overview, including the sort of addition you've made, and the for the relevant national sections to be incorporated into the Education by country articles? Tafkam 17:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Middle school vs. Junior high school

Is the term junior high school still common as it was 10 years ago?? Georgia guy 21:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

As the article states, the terms have become less synonymous over time, but that isn't because one has necessarily supplanted the other. Both terms seem to be in common use, it's just that they increasingly mean something different and specific. Whether there are more middle schools and less junior high schools than there were ten years ago -- which would affect how common the terms were used, I suppose -- may be countable, but there are too many factors to consider here. Some schools have gone from a Junior High School model to a Middle School model; some have gone the other way; changes in population and other factors continue to cause restructuring in many districts. Jfarber 18:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

And of course, all of that is from an entirely US-centric model - we never had the 'Junior High' label here in the UK Tafkam 20:22, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

True dat. But given the americanism "guy" in the username, it seemed safe to assume he's not askin' from Georgia, the village in Cornwall. Jfarber 21:51, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Middle school and junior high school is the same thing. A senior high school is a school attended after junior high school. I think it would be confusing saying middle school. Junior high and senior high are almost the same thing. They both offer electives unlike an elementary school. Junior and senior high schools are similar. It is just showing the differences between elementary school and junior or senior high school. (209.177.21.6 - talk)

I go to a 7-12th grade high school, and I'm confused by these terms. Is a school that goes from 7-12th not a high school? Or is it just not a Senior high school? The schools aren't divided. ɱўɭĩє^{What did I do}_wrong 17:52, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

A high school is a school attended after elementary school, usually comprising grades nine through twelve. If the 7-12 school is attended after elementary school, then it is considered a high school. If your school system doesn't have a junior high school, then it's not a senior high school. Hope that clears it up. (MrsMacMan 18:59, 12 June 2007 (UTC))

Except of course, they're clearly not! For a start, middle schools exist in the UK, and junior high schools don't. Don't forget this is supposed to be an international encyclopedia! Tafkam 21:21, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

i personally hate schools and the way they teach their kids the schools ways and beliefs like the big bang. my dad raised me as a christian and i wont take it. says john alba from titusville Fl.

I've only just stumbled across this page after discovering that middle school bizarrely redirects to a page called Junior High School. Surely this page should be retitled Middle School or split into two separate articles. Middle school has a specific meaning in the UK and it makes no sense to get diverted to a page talking about American junior high schools. Dahliarose 12:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

To further complicate things for those aspiring an international article, the literal translation of the Dutch name for secondary education (12-18) is "Middle school". --User:Krator (t c) 15:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Well my old school was renamed ___ Junior School from Town Middle. [Posted by User:OsirisV ]

That's not unusual - lots of middle schools in England have closed or been converted into Junior schools in recent years, but they are very different from the US Junior High type school. Tafkam 17:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Question: What if a town has both a middle school and a junior high school? Clearly they can be different. While Concordia Middle School grades 5-6 and Concordia Junior-Senior High School grades 7-8, 9-12 may be exceptions, it is worth consideration.--Paul McDonald 20:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

[edit] Dubious citation

A citation under #Canade and United States seems somewhat spurious to me as it is part of a site whose declared aim is "Mission: These are the meshugas of the Stammtisch Beau Fleuve. Our mission: to explore strange news items, to seek out intelligent life within this civilization (preferably within hailing distance of the lunch table), to examine boldly the handbasket the universe is going to hell in." [5]. It seems to be a personal site and therefore of no value for citing. If I have missed something and this is in fact a valuable source site please correct me but if I hear nothing constructive in a day or so I will remove the citation. Abtract (talk) 14:15, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, it should be removed as a home page. I don't see where it is to do it, though. Carl.bunderson (talk) 20:17, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Done. Abtract (talk) 20:31, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Rather than just delete the whole reference, and then remove this article from the MS disambiguation page, you could have done a quick google for a new reference, which I have done. I have also reverted your deletion of this article from MS (disambiguation). This is a common abbreviation, many middle schools abbreviate their name this way, and there are numerous online resources specifically defining this abbreviation. Dethme0w (talk) 19:27, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Mmmmm. I sense a certain element of disapproval in your tone. I removed the mention and the citation because the latter was clearly spurious. If you wish to go for another citation please do so but the one you just tried did not work; I will give you time to correct it before I remove that one too. Please bear in mind that using MS as part of the abbreviation for their name - Blahblah Middle School = BMS - is not the same as defining MS as a common abbreviation for middle school per se ... but you know that I am sure. :) Abtract (talk) 19:39, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

OK now you have fixed the link I see where you are going. Though it is hardly an academic or hugely reputable citation I won't fight you on it. I still have the feeling that ms is used only as a suffix in abbreviations for the names of schools (as I said above "Blahblah Middle School = BMS") rather than as a standalone usage, such as "I sent my son to the local MS". But, hey, life's too short to worry. Abtract (talk) 20:02, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I see your point about MS being a sub-abbreviation (i.e. the total acronymization of the school's name) but while googling for the ref I also saw lots of schools that, when abbreviating, kept the school's basic name intact and then followed with MS (e.g. "Gordon Bennett MS"), and that is where I see MS as a valid acronym. Dethme0w (talk) 20:14, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

We can draw a parallel to HS - the acronym for High school is there and apparently unchallenged. And we both know that that abbreviation is also mainly used in the names of high schools. If we dropped MS as an abbreviation for middle school, we'd have to do the same to HS for the same reason. As you've probably noticed, I have inclusionist leanings and would rather leave both alone. Dethme0w (talk) 20:11, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

OK good point, I am for including rather than excluding but sometimes when I get a bee on my bonnet ... Abtract (talk) 20:21, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References & Citations

Further to the ranking of this article, I have added references for the UK section. Hopefully this might inspire others to do likewise for their own nations Tafkam (talk) 19:47, 1 February 2008 (UTC)