Talk:Mid-December 2007 North American Winter storms

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[edit] Todo

It needs a more in-depth meteorological synopsis section, and more impact. Also, I think the highest amounts of precip by state would be a good addition. Juliancolton (talk) 19:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll see if I can work on it when the NWS gets more information out. Incubusman27 (talk) 07:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

How is this article encyclopediac in nature??? I don't understand why it belongs in Wikipedia. It's not as if the ice storm was in the middle of the Sahara Desert, which would be an unprecedented phenomenon. This is the US midwest, where ice happens!!! 209.247.22.166 (talk) 13:05, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

What the heck are you talking about?! This is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard. 27 people died, 1,200,000 people lost power. 27 dead people deserves an article. And it is very encyclopediac. It is an article about a major storm. That's why we have the wikiproject meteorology. I suggest you take that deletion tag off the page. Juliancolton (talk) 13:22, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I stand by my opinion that this article does not belong in an encyclopedia. And the comment you left on my talk page is ridiculous. If you propose an article for deletion, you must give your opinion why you think it should be, so don't tell me my reason isn't valid because it's an "opinion"!!!! 209.247.22.166 (talk) 13:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, judging by your talk page, you have a history of making bad edits. No offence. I would recomend taking the deletion proposal off, and I will try to improve the article.

And again, 27 people who have lost their lives is a very serious and unusual occurence, even for the midwest. Juliancolton (talk) 13:32, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the article can be "improved", because it's a news item and not important enough to be in an encyclopedia. FYI, the edits referenced on my talk page weren't made by me. In fact, if I look at my supposed history of edits, most of the ones listed weren't made by me. IP addresses are shared by multiple users, so it looks like other people with the same IP address I have also edit Wikipedia. 209.247.22.166 (talk) 13:38, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Every bad edit pointed out on your talk page is listed in your contribution history. Juliancolton (talk) 13:41, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The edits listed on my talk page were made by ANOTHER user with the IP address 209.247.22.166, not me. Literally thousands of AOL members share the same IP address, so those edits could have been made by anyone, but they weren't made by me. Peter Boyle wasn't related to me, and I don't even know what Image:Robdog and teddy hart.jpg or Catalysis are, let alone have any interest in them. 209.247.22.166 (talk) 13:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

No offence, but are you crazy? Stop lying. Your edit history, for your computer shows that you have made a edit to Peter Boyle and to Image:Robdog and teddy hart.jpg an to Catalysis. I can see your edit history. Stop lying. Juliancolton (talk) 13:51, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I am going to remove the deletion propsal tag. I don't want to hear complaints about it when I have done so, because, per the wikipedia deletion rules, "Any editor who disagrees with a proposed deletion can simply remove the tag. Even after the page is deleted, any editor can have the page restored by any administrator simply by asking. In both cases the editor is encouraged to fix the perceived problem with the page." Juliancolton (talk) 14:09, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not lying. I can see my supposed edit history too. It also shows I made edits to Fanny Crosby, Kathy Griffin, AP Human Geography, List of Pokémon (181-200), Hot Feet, Everest (Chicago restaurant), and Ford Motor Company. These topics are so different from each other it's obvious one person didn't make the edits. Why don't you check with someone who knows something about computers or ask a Wikipedia administrator if different editors can have the same IP address instead of accusing me of lying? 209.247.22.166 (talk) 14:13, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Well it has been the biggest power outage in Oklahoma's history and there was major impacts across a large portion of the Midwest for several days and at least 27 deaths (actually must have been increased since the last toll update) and still the series of storms are on-going with another big storm coming for this weekend which may have also a big impact for most of the eastern half of the continent and also those storms are more significant then every low-profiled tropical storm system (i.e Subtropical Storm Andrea, Tropical Storm Lee (2005), Tropical Storm Harvey, etc.), so even less reason to delete this article. --JForget 15:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

CNN says in the story here highlights ""Historic" storm left hundreds of thousands without power" and add the up-coming storm this weekend it will make it even more notable this article JForget 00:01, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Northeast effects

I've separated the impacts for the northeast from those coming from the ice. Not sure if it is the best way or we could separate the effects per region instead.--JForget 02:19, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it looks good. I just think there should be a highest snowfall by state table. By the way, I just got in from shoveling my driveway in southeast New York. We got 9 inches. I don't know if that should be mentioned in the article in the form of say, Snowfall amounts vary from place to place, with some areas, especially in southeastern New York and adjacent New England, recived up to 10 inches Juliancolton (talk) 02:39, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Well I've mentionned it in the synopsis section but for Massachusetts only, as I've surfed on WXnation.com which has links to various weather radars, traffic cams and eventually to get to the local news. As for a table, we could do but probably we should add a column showing the date of the snowfalls (whether the 10th, 11th, 13th, 16th or other dates) as the article would include three or perhaps four snow bands. Some areas significant snowfalls on various dates like Saguenay, Quebec got 10 inches Tuesday for example and 5 inches in my area in southwestern Quebec the same day. --JForget 03:02, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Would it be a regular wikitable, or a colored one similar to the one in Hurricane Dean? Juliancolton (talk) 12:59, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it's just me but I don't really see the need for using colors in any table we would put on, the ice accumulation table does not have any. I would say put a regular table.JForget 18:01, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, when I get time, I will do that. Juliancolton (talk) 18:06, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you know where I can find snow reports? Juliancolton (talk) 18:10, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

The best place would be the storm reports/summaries at various National Weather Service offices. I've already listed several pages on the external links section and can certainly add those from the northeast from yesterday and eventually this weekend's storm unless there is a consensus to just split this event to its own article. That would a lenghty list of NWS articles and summary reports to say the least.--JForget 18:51, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I have started a sandbox for the December 2007 Double Northeast snowstorms. You are welcome to help. Juliancolton (talk) 21:30, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Warnings

Why are the winter weather advisories listed in this article? I hope we don't include this next storm in this article. Juliancolton (talk) 21:15, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm still not 100% sure that it will warrant an article, although tomorrow we will have an even better idea. Sometimes they predict big storms but in some occasions it can turn into a dud, thus a big disappointment, but great decision for starting a sub-user article for the time being. For the moment I could continue on posting the advisories there, unless it is better to post it only in the 2007-08 storm list article.--JForget 23:41, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I think if we do keep the snowstorms to this article, then the name should be changed to December 2007 North American Series of Winter Storms. Juliancolton (talk) 02:53, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, the snow that is occuring now in the Northeast (12:00 AM CST December 15) is from a different low than what caused the ice storm in the Midwest and Southern Plains, and is different still from the one causing the snow in Kansas right now. Right now, I don't think the current storm in the Plains is going to be enough to warrant its own article. Incubusman27 (talk) 06:04, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

In many areas, the forecast amounts keeps getting bigger and bigger. For example in my area, they were forecast probably like 6-8 inches yesterday, now EC based on the forecast is calling if the calculations are correct 16-24 inches (after we got 7-10 inches throughout the week) with numerous areas calling for 10+ inches with heavy ice/sleet for Pennsylvania and parts of the Northeast. Even Alpena in Michigan, which wasn't forecasted snow or less then 1 inch now it's 7-14 inches. It will impact a lots of majors centers from Chicago to Halifax including Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo, Boston, Pittsburgh, etc (not to mention that St-Louis, Wichita and OKC were already affected previously. So I have an impression that it will now need it's own article now, already Juliancolton started his sub-user page and may have to transfer some synopsis elements to the future article and using this for effect sections. However, before it goes to mainspace either build up Julian's sub-user page on continue to write on this article before the effects are significant enough officially before a transferJForget 21:38, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Right now, I am just waiting to see how bad todays storm is before I really start working on my subpage. Juliancolton (talk) 14:07, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok for now I will just add info in this article, if it needs a separate article, I will just transfer the info to their and also modify the synopsis and and lead section. I have not included the 4 fatalities from the snow storm in the infobox just yetJForget 16:36, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ahem!!!

Hi. This storm is heading towards southern Ontario, Quebec, and Atlantic Canada. Up to 16 inches of snow is expected. Why does this article not even mention that it is approaching Canada? Or do we wait until it passes over Canada to update info? Check any weather forecast and you'll see it's approaching Canada. Why not even a short sentence mentioning this? Thanks. ~A H 1^(TCU) 13:57, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

By the way, there are no winter storm watches for Ontario or Quebec [1]. Snowfall and Snowsquall warnings extend all the way out to Nova Scotia. So, should it be changed, as Environment Canada is responsible for Canadian warnings? Thanks. ~A H 1^(TCU) 14:02, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I thought you guys used the metric system, not inches. Juliancolton (talk) 14:54, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Winter storm warnings and watches are in effect for Ontario and Gatineau, Quebec with snow warnings for Nova Scotia and Quebec. [2]--JForget 16:36, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I think going with everyone elses objections supra, this article needs some major work (including splitting, renaming). It's 1:30 in the morning here though, I need sleep. Perhaps I'll look through this during tomorrow's (technically today's) storm. Raj Fra 06:31, 16 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raj Fra (talk • contribs)

Hi. We do use metric. Anyway, this article needs constant updates. This storm is not over. Some places like Montreal could still see a total of 40 cm of snow. This is the biggest storm in decades for some of these areas, so please keep this article updates until the storm dissapates, which may happen as early as Tuesday. Please update and include more Canadian snowfall totals as the storm moves on. Ottawa could probably see 35 cm of snow, Toronto about 30 cm. Thanks. ~A H 1^(TCU) 15:11, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, as I have Said, we will see how bad the storm is, and then I will work on my sandbox for the nor'easter. Juliancolton (talk) 15:14, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Generally, we will have to wait for NWS summaries and amounts after the storm while for Canadian cities, it will be available briefly in special weather statements but they will disappear. Ditto for Snow reports on the Weather Network site which has snow amounts in a 24-hour update with the start at 2 AM. News articles will more then help as sources but for many it will be estimates contrary to EC and TWN.--JForget 16:39, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Renaming

Despite several areas receiving well over a foot of snow including my area, the impacts were minimal aside from cancelled flights and events. Only 5 fatalities so far from the storm and very few power outages except in PA. I propose to rename the article Mid-December 2007 North American Winter storms (mid because of the previous December article from the series of storms from November 29 to December 4) that would include the storms from December 8 to December 17 and we could do a large article with it. It's unfortunate though that few editors participated in contributions here - maybe if it was place in the Main Page, it could have made a difference (i.e the February winter storm made it to the main page). --JForget 00:26, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd certainly agree with the renaming; it's much more than an ice storm. Radagast (talk) 13:42, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I don't think that this storm warrents it's own article, though. Juliancolton (talk) 14:07, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Same here. We here in this part of Southern Ontario didn't see any ice with this storm. The last time we had an ice storm was about two weeks ago, when that other storm came in and dumped freezing rain over our area, and I actually slipped once. More people will find it if they search for winter storm, because this is really more about the snow than the ice. Also, hope you don't mind, I added an image and put the snowfall amounts for Canadian cities as cm before in. Also, after the move, create redirects from different titles (eg. storm, winter storm, ice storm, thunderstorm, rainstorm, colorado low, weather bomb, etc). This storm is not over, so please continue updating the snowfall totals for Quebec and Atlantic Canada. Thanks. ~A H 1^(TCU) 00:04, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

IMO, the storm is certianly over. Juliancolton (talk) 00:16, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I've renamed the article taking into account the storms from Dec 8 to Dec 17. I've also proposed it at Template talk:In the News to see the extreme weather story, which caused now 55 deaths in total could be in the Main Page. I've also re-organized some parts into new sub-sections as well.--JForget 01:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Canadian Amounts

Just to answer User:Incubusman27's comment above Those are the amounts as of 4 PM for Ontario (however other then Windsor the storm is still ongoing and still with moderate snow in eastern Ontario. I'm putting this list now because last time EC did not put a final tally report on the December 1-3 storm while most of Ontario east of Toronto still had accumulated snows on-going.

Windsor.............21 cm London..............16 cm ice pellets and freezing rain as well St cattherines......13 cm ice pellets and freezing rain as well Grimsby mtn.........21 cm ice pellets and freezing rain as well Hamilton............16 cm ice pellets and freezing rain as well Toronto downtown....26 cm thunder/lightning/ice pellets as well Pearson airport.....18 cm ice pellets as well Markham.............23 cm ice pellets briefly mixed Downsview...........20 cm ice pellets briefly mixed Wiarton.............27 cm Minden..............25 cm Orillia.............25 cm Coldwater...........20 cm Cornwall............32 cm Trenton.............17 cm Ottawa airport......29 cm Gatineau............20 cm --JForget 00:33, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Update as of 10 PM Windsor.............21 cm London..............16 cm ice pellets and freezing rain as well St cattherines......13 cm ice pellets and freezing rain as well Grimsby mtn.........26 cm ice pellets and freezing rain as well Niagara Escarpment..26 cm Hamilton............24 cm ice pellets and freezing rain as well Toronto downtown....26 cm thunder/lightning/ice pellets as Toronto riverdale...30 cm Pearson airport.....18 cm ice pellets as well Markham.............23 cm ice pellets briefly mixed Downsview...........20 cm ice pellets briefly mixed Wiarton.............27 cm Minden..............25 cm Orillia.............25 cm Coldwater...........20 cm Cornwall............45 cm Trenton.............20 cm Ottawa airport......34 cm Gatineau............29 cm Embrun/Russell......50 cm Cornwall............45 cm JForget 03:48, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

3 AM for Ontario and Quebec Windsor.............21 cm London..............16 cm ice pellets and freezing rain as well St cattherines......13 cm ice pellets and freezing rain as well Grimsby mtn.........26 cm ice pellets and freezing rain as well Niagara Escarpment..32 cm Hamilton............24 cm ice pellets and freezing rain as well Toronto downtown....26 cm thunder/lightning/ice pellets as Toronto riverdale...30 cm Pearson airport.....18 cm ice pellets as well Mono Mills..........21 cm Markham.............23 cm ice pellets briefly mixed Downsview...........20 cm ice pellets briefly mixed Wiarton.............27 cm Minden..............25 cm Orillia.............25 cm Coldwater...........20 cm Cornwall............45 cm Trenton.............20 cm Ottawa airport......37 cm Gatineau............32 cm Embrun/Russell......50 cm Cornwall............50 cm

Pontiac - na (13-15 cm water Equivalent) Mont-Laurier mt-saint-michel na (20 cm water Equivalent) Upper Gatineau Gatineau-Maniwaki na (22-36 cm) Montréal Dorval/St-Hubert na (30 cm) Lachute-st-jerome Mirabel na (25-30 cm) Lanaudière L'Assomption/Joliette na (40-50 cm) Vaudreuil-soulange na (20-30 cm EST.) Vallee Richelieu St-Hyacinthe/L'Acadie na (40 cm) Mauricie na (30-45 cm EST.) Bois-Francs na (25-35 cm EST.) La Tuque na (20-25 cm water Equivalent) Québec aeroport/valcartir na (30-40 cm) Res.Faunique Laurentians L'Étape na (35-40 cm Water equivalent) Saguenay Bagotville/Jonquiere na (25-30 cm) Lake Saint-Jean Roberval/Normandin np(5-15 cm) Charlevoix mrc na (40 cm water Equivalent) Montmagny La Pocatière na (40 cm water)Equivalent)

5 AM Nova Scotia and PEI

Halifax stanfield airport 13.5 Halifax - Clayton park 16 Halifax - pockwock lake 15 * Shearwater 10.4 * Yarmouth 9.4 Greenwood 6.2 Western Head 4 ** Kejimujik 20 ** Kentville 16 ** Parrsboro 14 ** Debert 10 ** Upper stewiacke 7 ** Nappan 14 ** Tracadie ** 17 Sydney 14.4

Charlottetown 15.8 East Point 6 ** Summerside 11 ** North Cape 6 **

8 AM New Brunswick

Moncton 23 Mechanic settlement 17 Saint John 23 Sackville** 10 Fredericton 21 Saint Léonard 34 Bathurst 28 --JForget 13:48, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Current

Now that the storms are done, except for maybe a Christmas storm, should I take it out of current? Juliancolton (talk) 16:05, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tropical Storm Olga's influence, and a potential system transition?

On the article for Tropical Storm Olga, there is a debate about whether Olga's remnants or this storm is responsible for the damage in the Southeast (IMO, this storm is - Olga had already merged with the cold front and the moisture helped amplify the system, but that is disputed). Olga's TCR may change this article a bit (since if that had merged, this was responsible, otherwise Olga was).

Also, looking at the weather maps at OPC, this system is still very powerful in the north Atlantic - if this continues to be strong to Europe, how should this be treated? CrazyC83 (talk) 04:28, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

What damage in the southeast? Juliancolton (talk) 14:26, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

From the winds and tornadoes associated with the cold front beneath the winter storm. In this case, the winter precipitation takes precedence as it was much more severe (like on February 13 but unlike on March 1). CrazyC83 (talk) 04:02, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GAN

There are only few GA winter storm articles, and few articles that are as good as this one. JForget, do you want to GAN it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Juliancolton (talk • contribs) 13:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I could, although there are issues about some dead links and this may hurt a bit the GA nomination - and finding new sources for some may be quite difficult.--JForget 19:44, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok. I just noticed something, the article says 85 people died, but the infobox says that 65 people died. Which is correct? Juliancolton (talk) 19:50, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry that I've took long to respond (server problems that prevent me to access Internet last evening), but I think the 85 deaths you are referring comes from the January 2007 ice storm and other winter storms that affected from the Midwest to the Maritimes. So it is the least 64 deaths number that is correct - in fact it could have been more then 64 since some may have been unreported, unsure whether it was directly attributed to the storm and its aftermath or I have forgotten or didn't visited a particular news site. --JForget 17:57, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, yes, I did see the January storm's deaths. Sorry about that. Anyway, we decided to not go for a GAN? Juliancolton (talk) 18:12, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Renaming, revisited

Has anyone considered moving this article to Mid-December 2007 North American Winter storm sequence, similar to a tornado outbreak sequence? I believe this would be appropriate, and in fact, better. Southern Illinois SKYWARN (talk) 23:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

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