User talk:Mic of orion

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Contents 1 Graphic of the Structure of the Croatian Ground Army 2 done 3 fixed 4 License tagging for Image:Bell 206 and RBS 15 mobile Launcher .jpg 5 M95 Degman

[edit] Graphic of the Structure of the Croatian Ground Army

Hi and thank you very much for all the information about the Croatian Ground Army- I will make the graphic tonight after work :-) noclador

Hi Mic

I've finished the graphic, but I have some more questions: The official homepage of the Croatian Army has a graphic, in the main units are the 3rd and 4th Corps. I have finished the Brigades now, but before I post the graphic I would like to know, if the Brigades are under the command of the Corps and if there are other units directly under the Corps Commands. Also in the graphic, there is a mention of Staff Units. Do you know more about these? Thanks, for your help noclador 22:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Noclador

Oh sorry forgot to tell you, Corps structures and regional commands are being replaced well better word is removed, entire post war command structure is being restructured along the NATO Command structure. As a result of the new military doctrine, regional and corp's commands are being for lack of better word being phased out.

The new structure should be implemented by the end of this year, as Croatian Army is preparing to go all professional by 2010.

If you are not in a hurry I can find out all exactly, I plan to call Croatian MOD and get better idea what is what, but if you look at

http://www.morh.hr/katalog/documents/CAF%20LTDP%202006-2015.pdf

and

http://www.morh.hr/katalog/documents/spo_eng.pdf

much of the information is there.

Including some of the proposed ideas, although budgets have since doubled and might triple as Croatia plans to modernize all its branches at the same time. Very costly if you ask me.

They mention need to reduce army, increase air force and navy personal if all new equipment is to be 100% operational. One fact which is impressive is the amount of training and serviceability of equipment in Croatian Army,/Air Force and Navy which stands at 92%.

If you ask me I think you shouldn't bother with the corp's and regional commands, by the end of this year new ORBAT should be in place. Army will restructure completely by the end of 2008, under these plans, some 6000 personal in support and command are to go and this was already confirmed by Croatian parliament few months ago.

These are plans by 2010 (well late 2008):

• Army: 10500 Active + 10 000 Reserves and Volunteer personal. (currently 16 500 + 16 000 reserves)
• Navy 2500 Personal (currently - 2000 personal and 2000 reserves)
• Air Force - 3200 personal (currently - 2700 personal and 2000 reserves)
• HQ/MOD/training - 3800 personal (currently 5600 personal)
• Civilian - 2200 personal (currently 4200 personal)

of this 12880 Professional Personal, 13920 enlisted personal and 20 000 reserves.

Plan is by 2010, to have at most 22500 active personal in Croatian Armed forces, and 10 000 reservist and volunteers giving total of 32500.

Hope this gives you a better idea. I'll still try to dig more stuff from Croatian MOD. user:Mic of orion

Hi Mic of Orion

Sorry, that I didn't answer earlier, but I waited for you answer on my talkpage (as usually in Wikipedia, we always answer on the other users talkpage, never on our own). I was wondering why I haven’t heard back from you and so I had a look at your talkpage yesterday and well... now I know why I waited in vain.

click to enlarge

But now to the task at hand- Here is the provisional graphic, that I made according to the data you gave me on the Talkpage of the Croatian Army:

But there is still some points that we need to clarify, before we can post the graphic in the article:

• • In both documents you pointed out to me, there are 2 Tank battalions. What happens to the 2nd Tank Battalion?
  • Also in the 2005 document the Motorized Brigade is supposed to have 4 Motorized battalions (no mention of the Mountain Troops battalion) and in the 2006-2015 document it seems to me, that the Motorized Brigade will have 2 Motorized and 2 Mechanized battalions (based in Petrinja). Can you clarify this please?
  • Also in the 2006-2015 document: there are 2 Anti Armour Company and 2 Air Defence battalion that belong to the Guards Troops. Are they part of the two Brigades?
  • Regarding the Logistic Battalions: in the table on page 47 in the 2006-2015 documents I find no mention of the Logistics Battalions- only a Logistic Regiment. Also the 2005 document says it is a Logistic Company per Brigade. Your thoughts about this?
  • Another point from the 2006-2015 document: It says 2 NBC Companies, but right now we have a Company and a Battalion in the Brigades- Are you sure about the Battalion?
  • Also it seems to me, that the Mechanized Brigade will have a Military Police Company and not a Platoon.
  • In the 2005 document there is a Training and Doctrine Command that commands the formation and training units of the Croatian Ground Army- should this Command and its units be included in the Graphic? (i.e. Infantry Regiment with 3 Battalions in Gašinci)
  • Last question: in the 2006-2015 document there are 1 NBC Company, 1 Special Ops Company, 1 Military Intelligence Company, Signals Battalion and 7 (-2 in the Brigades??) Military Police Companies. Am I correct in assuming, that these units are part of the "Signals Regiment", "Military Police Regiment", "NBC Battalion" and "Military Intelligence Battalion"?

See, I'm a bit confused- does Croatia use the British or the Italian/German/French Brigade structure? In the British structure only the combat units are under command of the Brigades, the rest (Signals, NBC, Artillery, MP, Logistics, and so) are under the command of their respective regiments (i.e. Artillery Regiment) and only in case of war does the Brigade take command. The Continental Brigade model is simple: all units are under direct command of the Brigades. If Croatia uses the British model than we would need to move all units except for the Recon Companies, Tank Battalion and Motor./Mech. Battalions to their respective regiment (i.e. the two Artillery Battalions of the Brigades to the Artillery Regiment of the Training Command). Any thoughts about this?

Well this is it for now. I know- I ask a lot of questions, but I want to contribute 100% correct information to Wikipedia. If you should not be able to answer some of the questions, then we will make the graphic as close to 100% as possible and put it in the article with a disclaimer asking for help in clarifying the open questions :-) best regards noclador 08:57, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi ya nocloader,

Yes, what you posted is correct, not final though, ok there are few things in that documents confuse.

Petrinja brigade is a part time or reserve brigade and that brigade will be mechanized not motorized as mentioned in the document. Well, truly, in Croatia, there is no difference between motorized and mechanized, well, slight, motorized in true fashion travel in trucks instead of APC's, but I'll explain a bit more.

1st brigade (tigers) moved from Zagreb to Petrinja area, it will still be based in Zagreb keeping one of its units there in Lucko barracks I think, but nothing major, at most 400-500 solders)

Tigers and Gromovi will be kept in reserve, this is 1st and 2nd brigade, but this is not certain, bc they plan to mix brigades. Basically scavenge from each brigade what is good and put them in to reserve status, so it will be some confusion what is and what will be in actual service, as I said reforms are still ongoing.

Right now Tigers will remain in reserve status (from 2008 I think). U must understand Croatian brigades are very large units, 4000men at least, up to 5600men per brigade, but after 2010, I am certain both active brigades will be 4000 men each.

OK, to some observers it might be very confusing how the actual military Orbat works, not sure if Croats meant to do that as to confuse enemy, lol, or something else. Croatia uses German/French model, therefore all units are part of the same brigade, even though they are cited as independent.

I forgot to mention AD companies (not battalions), again let me clarify, say secondary units say logistics, Military police, specialist units and so on, are sometimes cited as battalions, but there actual strength is of a large company 250-300 men at most.

When they state it is a company than we are talking of company only, about 150-200men at most.

Air defense units, well, this is what I am not sure about, you see, AD suppose to be part of Air Force contingent, but if there are 2 battalions of AD at present, they aren't active, at most, each brigade will receive 1 AD company- about 200men each.

You can add them to your presentation as well.

Number of main battle tanks, currently Croatia has about 77 active tanks, well 75 if we are honest, other 2 are still being tested. Croatia plans to have 2 tank battalions, 104 tanks in total, leopard 2 at some point were considered as an option, Holland and Germany were happy to sell few of there's for million euro per L2A4, but to preserve local jobs ( I think this is most likely the case) and potential export orders from Kuwait and others, it was thought best to go with the M84 Upgrade, but still, (this is not very public) PM and Defense minster really want to get there hands on L2A4's.

So compromise of some sort is being worked out, imagine L2A5 with different turret and different hull, well, Croats are selling it as M84D or M95 Degman. http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n83/Dan12345_2006/M-84D-2.jpg --- http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7863/m95degmanlj4.jpg

Now we have few issues, new Degman is not cheep, it seems it costs 3 million USD per tank and to satisfy both sides, political, military and public, it is very likely new M95's will role out sometimes in late 2007 or early 2008. how many, not sure.

currently Croatia has 75 M84's mind you these will get the upgrade for sure, they'll be up the chopping board very fast. Djuro Djakovic has new turret/hull casting facility, they are talking to Germans for tracks and L55 canon, to French for optics and Israeli's for reactive ERA suite. One thing is certain, Croatia tends to be very good at highly technical projects, and M95 or M84D (export version) will be tank of 3rd generation and highly capable tank. If new M95 gets a go ahead and it looks it will, now that Kuwaitis have showed interest to purchase/upgrade 216 tanks from Djuro Djakovic, Croatia will most likely opt for 2 battalions as envisaged in original document.

I really need to take all your questions in, right now I am answering with no clear and defined objective. let me look at all questions, and do bit of research.

Hi Mic of Orion

Take the time you need to confirm the relevant data- I'll wait and then finish the graphic with the information you give me. You're the clear expert on the Croatian Ground Forces here and I'll trust your judgment and resources. When you are ready- tell me what to change in the graphic and together we will finish it then. best regards noclador 10:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Noclador,

Ok this is the latest I had a chance to check some stuff, and this is how it is gong to go (preliminary data, some changes might be made depending on funds)

9th and 3rd brigades are all ok, you forgot to add anti tank companies, each brigade will have additional anti tank company (normally 16 Anti tank APC's Most likely this will be Iveco's MCV's) and Air Defense companies.

1st Brigade will be as I gathered dispersed all over the place and only reserve status with weekend warriors, Orbat of the 1st brigade is as follow:

• 1x Armored Battalion based in Sisak, 52x M84D Degman tanks. (perhaps more, if funds available)
• 1x Artillery battalion based in Bjelovar, 18x 152mm M84 Nora Howitzers, 12x 2S1 Howitzers, 24x 120mm heavy mortars, *12 x RAK12 128mm MLRS
• 1xAir defense Company based in Dugo Selo (armed with 8xBOV 3x20mm SPAAG, 4xSA8 and 4xSA9 AAV.
• 2x Mechanized Battalions, 104x LOV/BOV APC's (will be replaced by Patria 8x8) battalions are based in Sisak and Petrinja.
• 2 Motorized Battalions based in Petrinja and Knin
• 1x Logistic Company based at Lucko Zagreb
• 1x Engineer Battalion based in Koprivnica,
• 1x Military Platoon (60men) Zagreb
• 1x Anti tank company 16x Anti tank APC's armed with 9К115-2 Metis-M
• 1x Signals Company Based in Zagreb
• 1x Recon Company, based in Ogulin
• 1x NBC Company, based at Lucko, Zagreb.

Other Units would be be more independent, consisting of,

• 1x Artiljeri Regiment, 18x 155mm Howitzers, 18x 105mm Howitzers, 24x 120mm mortars, 2x Orkan 260mm MLRS, 12x RAK 12 128mm MLRS. Based in Bjelovar
• 1x Engineer battalion based in Karlovac
• 1x Military Intelligence Battalion Based in Zagreb Lucko (UAV' and ELNIT unit)
• 1x Military Police Battalion (more of a very large company) Based in Ogulin and Karlovac (UN and NATO OPS)
• 2x Air Defence Regiment, Based in Divulje Split, Zagreb Pleso and Zadar Zemunik (about 1200 men)
• 1x Logistics Battalion, based in Benkovac (reserve status)
• 1x Battalion of Signals - Karlovac (about 300 men)
• 1x Battalion of Special Forces and Commando, (based in Delnice) (500men strong)
• 1x Battalion of Presidential guard (based in Zagreb) (250-300men strong)

I guess only 3 permanent brigade structures would be kept plus number of smaller independent units.

• Simulation Center for training and operations based in Lucko, Zagreb ( think this is officer academy not sure)
• Tactical Training School and NCO School at Jastrbarsko
• Center for - Peacekeeping Operations - Rajkije Zagreb (School for personal which participates in international ops)
• Artilleri tactical training center - Slunj
• Army HQ in Karlovac

btw this is Iveco MCV, so you understand what Iam on about - Croatia ordeerd 80 of these, but more will follow. Some will be armed with 12.7MG some with 7.6sMG and some with Anti tank Milan or TOW and other weapons and sensors.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/13/Iveco_LMV_Norge.jpg

hope that helps, user:Mic of orion

It does :-) It is now 3am in Italy, but what the heck the graphic will be finished soon- only one question: are the

• 1x Battalion of Special Forces and Commando, (based in Delnice) (500men strong)
• 1x Battalion of Presidential guard (based in Zagreb) (250-300men strong)

really under command of the Reserve Briagde??? noclador 00:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

NO, they are independent units under direct command of MOD and are not even under command of army, but are part of the Army. user:Mic of orion

Hi Noclador,

just a few things,

Center for peacekeeping ops, name is Rakitje it is just outside Zagreb, (I spelled it wrong the first time) Mountain infantry battalion is based in Gospic not in Petrinja.

Artillery regiment in Bjelovar is more of a mix artillery, with SPH's, field artillery' and MLRS. You can change tanks in Sisak Armored battalion to M95 as all of them will eventually be upgraded to that standard anyways, it will be reserve battalion, so it won't be a priority as they say, most likely upgrade won't happened this decade, perhpas early on in the next, but it is up to you, I guess you can leave it for now.

9th brigade NBC battalion is only a company and NBC battalion is not assigned it is independent unit (most likely for UN and NATO operations), Croatia eventually plans to have at least 1500 men in peacekeeping operations at any time, this is stated aim of Croatian if we can call it military doctrine.

And Croatia is using German/continental structures, NATO standard, meaning 3 companies of IFV/MBT/RCV/APC's (16x3) and command platoon or total of 52, old structure was 12x3+4 or 40 MBT/APC/IFV per battalion, or soviet/Yugoslav military doctorine to some degree. user:Mic of orion

[edit] done

The graphic is finished and up here :-) Please have a look to see if there are any errors left (or anything you want to change). I tried to fill in the locations of the 3rd/6th Brigades units, but my data is from the 2005 document you told me about and so there might be changes and if you point them out I will change them immediatly. noclador 02:20, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] fixed

I fixed the errors you mentioned. noclador 12:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

great stuff,

if any changes happened I'll let you know, but from what I see, you've done excellent job.

great stuff. :) user:Mic of orion

you're welcome:-) noclador 13:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] License tagging for Image:Bell 206 and RBS 15 mobile Launcher .jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Bell 206 and RBS 15 mobile Launcher .jpg. You don't seem to have indicated the license status of the image. Wikipedia uses a set of image copyright tags to indicate this information; to add a tag to the image, select the appropriate tag from this list, click on this link, then click "Edit this page" and add the tag to the image's description. If there doesn't seem to be a suitable tag, the image is probably not appropriate for use on Wikipedia.

For help in choosing the correct tag, or for any other questions, leave a message on Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. Thank you for your cooperation. --ImageTaggingBot (talk) 12:05, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Right on, I got the right tags now thanx for the advice Mic of orion (talk) 13:39, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] M95 Degman

Hi Mic. Sorry to bother you like this. Some guy wrote some wild stuff on the M95 Degman article. Since I know you know more than me when it comes to military affairs, please revise it. I took the topic to the talk page. Thank you

NW, done, posted my reply in M-95 talk page :)