Talk:Michael Servetus

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[edit] Editing

This page still needs a good deal of cleanup/corrections/wikification. I'll work on it as time allows, but if anyone wants to beat me to it they're more than welcome to.

The latter part is largely narrative. And maybe plagiarized. I would only request that the mention of importance to modern Unitarians be preserved. --Tydaj 03:41, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Also, I think we're going to have to find some attributions for those opening quotes, or remove them entirely. Similarly, the article has some small NPOV problems that need to be addressed. - Neckro 07:16, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

'Small' NPOV problems? It seemed like a good portion of the article sites Michael Servetus Humanist and Martyr, which from its title doesn't sound like a very neutral book. The article dwells on the horrors of Servetus's death using graphic terms, and no effort is made to give the Calvinist side of the situation. This leaves me wondering why Calvin wanted Servetus dead, and what was really going on in 16th century Geneva. These questions show me that there is more going on here than the article admits. -- OracleofTroy
I hope my current revision is better. I didn't do much research, so I didn't add too much new information. I got rid of the "Passion of Servetus" paragraph. I tried to present some info from a Calvanist POV using the article below, but I found it hard to get past the authors extreme bias. It seems that Servetus' execution was out of principle, but I can't really proove this from the little info I've got. It's very difficult to find a resource without significant bias on one side or the other. --Tydaj 02:52, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It seems quite improved since last I looked at it. I think it is still a bit POV, but improving greatly and getting harder to find anything concrete to take issue with. -- OracleofTroy 02:35, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I tried to elaborate Calvin's view in light of the times and his actual involvement. I even put in a couple sources that seem basically positive on Calvin. I'm worried now though that I've went too far the other way. Which is slightly amusing in a personal way. See even though I tried to list the negatives of Servetus and defenses of Calvin that's mostly out of a sense of fairness. On a personal level I do consider Servetus to basically be a martyr, I traditionally did blame Calvin, and I have a basically negative view of Calvin in general. However researching it did make me re-evaluate my opinion on Calvin's involvement which does seem to be less than I had believed. Although I still prefer Servetus to him and I wish Servetus was as well known as Giordani Bruno.--T. Anthony 03:00, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

The article seems to me now to present a reasonably balanced view. It is of course focused on Servetus. I suggest removing the POV warning. J S Ayer 02:32, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

I dunno, it seems like that quote at the beginning is pretty unneccisary. Everyone has a fan-club. Even Einstein's article says "widely regarded" rather than "someone once said..." Schwael 16:09, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I have modestly altered the descriptions of Servetus's trial, condemnation, and execution. The 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica and Will and Ariel Durant's The Reformation agree that the other Swiss churches did not call for Servetus's execution, and at least the first says that by the laws of Geneva a transient alien who did not conform to the established worship could at worst be banished. J S Ayer 02:15, 14 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Meaning of 'immolation'

The word 'immolation' does not mean burning. It simply means to sacrifice.

My bad. I think I was tryin to be a bit too fancy. Thanks. :) neckro 01:45, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Well, it often carries the connotation of burning. --Tydaj 03:37, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree that this page is very biased in favor of Servetus; much of the article is quoted verbatim from books containing half-truths, misstatements, such as calling Calvin the head of a "dictatorial regime" when he never served a public office, and unnecessary editorializing, e.g. describing execution as "in accordance with the common practice of the day, unfortunately" (emphasis added). Anti-Servetus arguments are reduced to external links and dismissed as mere "Apologetic[s]". This POV must be given a chance to defend itself equally to maintain neutrality. I am therefore adding the POV badge to the article. --Teslacoil 03:50, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Calvin was a leading political figure in Geneva at the time though, wasn't he? That's a point everything I found agreed on.--T. Anthony 12:41, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I removed the "unfortunately" (before I reread this). It seems to me that the statement was already qualifing enough. It was also an opinion. --Tydaj 02:58, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yeah I agree too. I'm a Calvinist so any chance to diss Servetus might seem to be terribly biased... however I do think the writing needs to be improved to be more NPOV. --One Salient Oversight 07:48, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As a UU, I too am too worried about bias to edit it. --Tydaj 03:34, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Or maybe not :p --Tydaj 02:52, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The Calvinist side is given in the article on Calvin, is it not?? After all, Calvin did have a rather effective way of silencing the man, didn't he?

For the record, I'd like to give a brief explanation of the changes and additions that I did on the Servetus page. The theology was confusing, since there was no explanation of why the Son was not eternal in S.'s view. I also moved the theology section after the first books, since as it was, it seemed that S. was already developing his theology in Toulouse; however, this is unlikely, but he did get involved in Protestant activities, because his name appears in a list of "suspect students" that should be watched by authorities. Most probably S. began to develop his theological ideas during his trip with the imperial court and particularly after the crowning ceremony in Bologne, where he was outraged by the pomp of the Papal delegation, and actually he went next year to discuss with Oecolampadius, therefore he had already reached some conclusions and felt ready to debate them. Another important change was that the Jews had already been expelled from Spain, and the Muslims had lost the war and were marginalized and on the verge of expulsion themselves, therefore Servetus could not be developing a theology "for the main religious minorities in Spain", as one of them was already banned and severely persecuted, and the other was defeated and marginal. Finally, it was important to remark that the discovery of pulmonary circulation was totally unnoticed because most copies of the book were burned, not because of reliability (I added that it was the first mention of it "in the West" because apparently at least one Muslim physician in the late Middle Ages had already described it, and perhaps this text was circulating in Paris when Servetus studied there). --Jdemarcos 14:59, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

My mistake, apologies. I read somewhere that Spain's main religious minorities were still Jews and Muslims in his day. Also the written accusations against him at the time accused him of "Judaizing" or "Islamizing" the faith. So I figured maybe appealing to them did matter in a way, but you're right it wouldn't have.--T. Anthony 06:37, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Remind me why exactly there is believed to be something called a "Calvinist point of view" on this issue? What could ever, in any universe, in a million lifetimes, justify the BURNING TO DEATH of a human being for his opinions? Don't answer that because I already know the answer: Nothing.--JC

Oh for myself I personally think Calvin was a harsh and vengeful person who believed in a harsh and vengeful God. I do think he had tremendous power in Geneva, even if he didn't have official power. Anyway I just read the NPOV dispute and it seemed to be about this being unfair to Calvin. So I mentioned that hostility to Servetus's ideas was widespread and that he may have insulted Calvin once. I think it'd take a very odd person to decide that means Calvin was right in wanting him dead.--T. Anthony 12:37, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

As for Calvin not holding public office in Geneva: Joseph Stalin did not hold public office during most of the years that he was dictator of the Soviet Union. J S Ayer 15:56, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Book links, a question

When linking to a book is there a conventional way to so on Wikipedia? In this article, I posted a link to a book at Amazon, but I don't really intend to promote one retailer over another. It's just a convenient link. Any suggestions? --BAW 03:55, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] After reading all threads, I must say...

It is quite clear that calvinist's will still try to silence the truth about the matter. Michael was murdered for what he believed in by a blood thirsty tyrant who was,at the time, the most influential leader of a blood thirsty religion. He is a hero and martyr by any definition of the word. To take away the dramatic highlights of his page would be an injustice. My God, how long will it take for trinitariansim to destroy itself. Sooner rather than latter I hope....

Don't overreact. It's just that articles here have to show both sides. The article was seen as far too biased toward him, which would not be done to any martyr here. As it stands now though I think it's still clear that Calvin worked towards his death and believed his choices were conversion or decapitation. The actual facts in a neutral manner I think make Calvin look bad enough. And although I'm Catholic, it doesn't make us look that great either. (Except that he managed to escape Catholic prisons and was not executed by Catholics)--T. Anthony 05:29, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
"He developed a bitter hatred based not only on the unorthodox views of Servetus but also on Servetus's tone of superiority mixed with personal abuse."[citation needed] Without a citation, this is just innuendo, which may be usefully avoided. The mellifluous tone of the article is already revolting enough. Moreover, the fact that Serveto's execution is not mentioned in the introductory paragraph is somewhat odd.[tito:19/10/2006]

[edit] Accusation regarding marriage

As for the question, "Whether he has married, and, if not, how, given his age, he could so long avoid marriage," this is an oblique accusation of sexual immorality. Such a charge is easy to make, often true whether the accuser knows it or not, and almost impossible to refute even if the accused should happen to be innocent. Servetus replied that rupture had long since made him impotent, and had kept him from marriage. Now, to locate my source... J S Ayer 04:26, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I wondered about that. I just found myself thinking how that would sound in any other kind of trial and it struck me funny. I'm not even sure the Islamic courts in Iran exactly ask that when they imprison Baha'i.--T. Anthony 14:10, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


-Here's your source: Ronald H. Bainton Hunted Heretic: The Life and Death of Michael Servetus (Beacon Press, 1953) I can also tell you that Michael Servetus: Humanist and Martyr was a fairly well-balanced book.

Thank you! Action taken! J S Ayer 00:04, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I beleive his name is Roland H. Bainton not Ronald.

What is meant by "rupture"?

[edit] The dispute

I see this has been on "POV" dispute since March 2005. Does anyone see a way to resolve the issue? Or has the dispute lasted so long because people just gave up and forgot to remove it?--T. Anthony 09:26, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I vote to remove the warning and see if anybody reacts to it. --Jdemarcos 13:31, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Done, let's find out if anyone reacts.--T. Anthony 01:07, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I think our combined efforts have produced an article that we can all be proud of. J S Ayer 03:53, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why modern quotations?

I don't see the point of quoting in the article some comedians or poets who mention Servetus in their texts. What does this add to the quality of the entry? If anything has to be quoted, it is much more interesting to know where to find essays and bibliography on Servetus, rather than some poem or TV show! --Jdemarcos 22:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Birth date unknown

For some reason, an anonymous poster does not like that I clarify in the article that the date of September 29 is not necessarily the exact date of Servetus's birth. Simply, there is no documentary proof of it. September 29 is a good guess based upon it being St. Michael's day, according to the Catholic calendar of saints. Therefore, if he was named Michael, there is a high chance that it was because either his birth or his baptism (usually the same day or shortly afterwards in those days) was on that date. But we do not know for sure, and this must be reflected in the article to be totally accurate. --Jdemarcos 10:47, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] John Calvin's (alleged) letter to the Marquis du Poet (de Poët) - September 30, 1561

I removed the following information, which I added to the article on Sept. 27, 2006, because it references a letter, allegedly written by John Calvin, but which is, as I have recently discovered, apparently nothing more than a scurrilous forgery:


Calvin never expressed any remorse over his involvement in the death of Servetus. Toward the end of his life, in a letter to the Marquis de Poët, Calvin wrote: "Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus, the Spaniard."[1]

  1. ^ Calvin to the Marquis de Poët, high chamberlain to the King of Navarre and governor of the city of Montélimar at Crest, September 30, 1561 - Jules Bonnet, Lettres de Jean Calvin, (Lettres Francaises - French Letters), 2 vols., vol. 2 (Tome Second) , Paris, Librairie De. Ch. Meyrueis et Compagnie, 1854, p. 594. Cf. The Works of Voltaire:A Contemporary Version with Notes, 42 vols., Vol. XXVII, Akron, Ohio, The Werner Co., 1904 [©1901], p. 89. The French text reads: "Un jour honeur, gloire et richesses saront ds récompense de tant de peines. Surtout ne faites faute de deffaire le pays de ces zellés faquins qui exortant les peuples par leurs discours à se bander contra nous, noircissent noste conduitte, et veulent faire passer pour resverie nostra croyance. Pareils monstres doivent estre étouffés, comme je fis icy en l'exécution de Michel Servet, Espagnol."


The refutation of this alleged letter of John Calvin to the Marquis du Poet is given by Jules Bonnet (1820-1892) in the above edition of Calvin's Lettres, 2:588-593. Unfortunately, I failed to notice this refutation before adding the quotation to the article (my French being very rudimentary).

I added this material in good faith, thinking the letter genuine, since, for several years, I had been trying to find a refutation of it on the internet, but to no avail. If it were really false, surely a refutation would exist by now, or so I thought. But none were to be found! Still, I remained skeptical as to its authenticy. It was only after having discovered Voltaire's use of it (a presumably reliable source), coupled with the absence of any kind a refutation on the Web, that I concluded that it must, in fact, be genuine, and that it should be included to the article. I see I was quite wrong! Mea culpa!


Below is the English translation (entitled: An Historical Calumny Refuted) from Letters of John Calvin; Compiled from the Original Manuscripts and Edited with Historical Notes (4 vols) by Dr. Jules Bonnet, vol.iv, pp.434-438


We read in the Nouveaux Memoires of the Abbe d’ Artigny, vol. iii. pp. 313-316:

" An able Jesuit very fond of literary anecdotes has communicated to me the following letters, the originals of which the Marquis du Poet preserves with great care… These two letters of which the patriarch of the pretended Reformed, has painted himself to the life, do him so little honor that no efforts have been spared to get them out of M. du Poet’s hands, with such pertinacity indeed that a minister of the Cevennes having asked to read them wished to take forcible possession of them, which gave rise to a rather animated scene, the consequences of which, as may well be imagined, were not to the advantage of the preacher."

Such is the first mention slightly embellished of the two famous letters which, published in 1750 by the Abbe d’ Artigny, were about to furnish Voltaire with a sarcasm, and commence their career of scandal in a celebrated chapter of the Essai sur les Moeurs.

" The last feature in the portrait of Calvin may be taken from a letter in his own handwriting, which is still preserved in the Chateau of La Bastie-Roland near Montelimart. It is addressed to the Marquis du Poet, Grand Chamberlain of the Queen of Navarre, and dated the 30th of September, 1561: 'Honor, glory, and riches will be the reward of your pains. Above all do not fail to rid the country of all those zealous scoundrels that stir up the people to make head against us. Such monsters should be smothered, as I have done here by Michel Servetus the Spaniard.'"

Too circumspect to reproduce the sorry trash of the letters signalized by the able Jesuit, and accepted without examination by the Abbe d’ Artigny, but too partial to discuss their value, Voltaire confined himself to a quotation, and flung as a challenge to the Reform a phrase in the handwriting of Calvin, containing an atrocious exhortation to murder, enveloped in a cruel allusion to the death of Servetus.


This was but the prelude to the fortune reserved for the two documents of which the singular destiny has been to serve the rancor of the philosophical spirit of the eighteenth century, against the religious spirit of the sixteenth, and the hatred of a school which does not shrink, we know, from a defense of the inquisition and the massacre of St. Bartholomew, but which piously veils its face before the funeral-pile of Servetus, and the inconsistent rigor of the Reform at Geneva. The letters to M. du Poet were destined to furnish ample matter for the declamations of a party, not very scrupulous in the choice of its arms against heresy. It has not failed to lay hold of them. Let us content ourselves with recalling to mind that we find them invariably quoted in a great number of writings of Catholic controversy, from d’Artigny and Berbier, down to Abbe Amodru; that they have obtained the honor of double mention in Audin, and a little insertion in one of the most vaunted works of M. Capafigue. Let us add in fine that a writer of Dauphiny, M. Aubenas, has renewed the accusation, reproduced by a learned historian, M. Lavallee, who does not hesitate to condemn Calvin on the faith of Voltaire.

Such is the history of these letters which, quoted with the most unshaken assurance for more than a century, have acquired in passing from mouth to mouth, a mysterious authority which seems placed beyond dispute and doubt. Thus spring up and are propagated at the pleasure of passions interested in spreading them, those falsehoods consecrated by time, which cannot brook; however, the slightest examination, and yet of which the most palpable refutations can scarcely shake the empire. It is one of those pious frauds which we now attempt to unmask for the first time.

Among the seigneurs who embraced with the greatest ardor the cause of the Reform in Dauphiny, in the second half of the sixteenth century, we must reckon Louis de Marcel, Seigneur of Barry, Mornans, Saou, Baron du Poet near Montelimart. He united his exertions to those of the principal noblemen of the country, Monbrun, Blacons, and Mirabel, to obtain liberty o conscience, ad vied with them in bravery for the defense of Lyons against the Catholic army. He took part in the battles of Jarnac and Montcontour, and followed the fortunes of the King of Navarre through all the vicissitudes of the civil wars. His services were not forgotten, and when the cause, for which he had valiantly combated, became triumphant, he was named successively Chamberlain of the King of Navarre, councilor of state, Governor of Montelimart, and lieutenant general of the Maruquisate of Saluces, 1593. We see already by theses details that the importance of the Baron du Poet as a chief of the Calvinist party is much posterior to the death of Calvin. But he had declared for the Reformation before this period, and must have kept up with the Reformer an intercourse, of which we think we find the traces in a letter addressed "to a Baron of Dauphiny". This intercourse is attested besides by a tradition generally disseminated in the southern part of Dauphiny, and of which it is impossible not to recognize the value.

It is in consequence of this tradition that must have arisen and gained credit in the district, the false letters fraudulently inserted in the archives of the family of du Poet – at what period and by what hands? Of that we are ignorant.

Need we say that a simple perusal of these letters in the memoirs of the Abbe d’ artigny had inspired us with invincible doubts of their authenticity? But these doubts equivalent to a moral certainty could only acquire a scientific certainty by an examination of the documents themselves. No pains were to be spared by us to obtain such a result. The archives of the family of du Poet, long preserved in the seigniorial manor of du Poet-Ceylar near Dieulefit, transported at a later period to the chateau of la Bastie-Roland, had at length fallen by inheritance to the Marquis d’ Alissac de Valreas, whose kindness has permitted us freely to consult the correspondences which illustrious successions have accumulated in his hands. Among all the documents which compose this family inheritance, among which we remark the distinguished names of Montmorency, Conde, Chatillon, Lesdiguieres, Henry IV., ect., two, the reader will easily conceive, almost exclusively attracted our attention. The simple inspection of them was sufficient to confirm all our doubts, and demonstrated with an evidence not to be resisted the spuriousness of these letters.

The proofs in confirmation of this conclusion are so numerous, that our only embarrassment would be to examine them. We must content ourselves with a summary enumeration of them.

1. These originals, written by Calvin’s own hand (as Voltaire affirms), are anything but autographs. The are neither in the handwriting of Calvin, nor in that of Jonvillers his secretary, nor of Antony(Antoine) Calvin (Calvin's brother), who sometimes held the pen of under the dictation of the Reformer during the latter years of his life.

2. If these pieces are not in the handwriting of Calvin, still less do we find them in his style, admired by Bossuet himself and one of the finest in our language. That style is concise, nervous, and dignified, bearing the impress of a strong individuality more easy to caricature than to imitate.

3. From the form let us pass to the substance. The two letters swarm with mistakes and historical blunders which betray the work of an unskilled forger. The first, dated the 8th of May, 1547, and addressed to M. du Poet, General of the Religion in Dauphiny, could scarcely enumerate some obscure martyrs in that province. The second dated the 13th of September, 1561, has for superscription – to M. du Poet, grand chamberlain of Navarre and Governor of Montelimart, dignities with which he was invested only twenty years later, in 1584. It is one of Calvin’s accusers, M. Aubenas himself, who informs us of that, without remarking that the notice which he has devoted to M. du Poet is the best refutation of the authenticity or the letters attributed to the Reformer. We should have but too easy a task in pursuing in detail the analysis of these letters. But how is it possible to go through with it? How take up one by one the errors, the improbabilities, the nonsense, the enormities of every sort accumulated as if on purpose in these pages, in which the absurd vies with the odious, in which men and things are so sillily travestied, in which the grand and holy revolution of the sixteenth century is represented by a shameless scribbler as a course farce played by impudent mountebanks! Here the pen drops from our hands! When anonymous calumny dares to attack by abject defamation the most venerated names, it deserves not the honor of a reply; to confound it, it is enough to show it up in open day. To quote these pretended letters is to refute them!


Believe me, in the future I will be much more vigilant in checking and re-checking the accuracy of my sources. Delta x 01:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Servetus's Earlier Correspondence with Calvin

Someone has mischievously removed the account of Servetus's correspondence with Calvin in the 1540s, when Servetus asked for a safe-conduct to visit Geneva and discuss theology with Calvin personally. Calvin refused, and broke off the correspondence, remarking to his friend Farel, "I will not give it, for if he comes here, if my authority is of any force, I will never permit him to depart alive." That's from memory. Now Calvin appears in the article without introduction, and without even a link.

Also I have several respectable sources saying that, while the other Protestant cantons condemned Servetus's doctrine and advised its suppression, none told Geneva how that should be accomplished. I am looking for a copy of the work cited to the contrary, to see exactly what it says. J S Ayer 13:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I've restored this section. --moof 10:35, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I now have in hand a copy of The History and Character of Calvinism by John T. McNeill, and it DOES NOT say that the other reformed cantons advised that Servetus be put to death. I will soon replace this with a reference to Prof. Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Church, Vol. 8, which says, in detail, that they didn't. J S Ayer 01:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Theology

I'm rather surprised that this topic has not been discussed more. We all come with a bias, and mine is towards Oneness Pentecostalism. Other biases I have noted are Unitarianism, Unitarian Universalist Association and the New Church. Servetus is not always easy to understand and therefore his writing can be construed to suit a variety of interpretations. I think it is important that we recognize these differences and try to avoid steering the article too much in one direction. For example, Servetus may be recognized as a Unitarian martyr by the various Unitarian churches, but to other faith groups, even those who embrace his nontrinitarian views, he is not seen that way.
Of major concern is the divinity of Jesus Christ. My personal view is that Servetus accepted that Jesus Christ was fully God, and that while we are imbued with the Spirit of God, individually we are not the "fullness of the Godhead bodily". There is a conflict here with those who see Jesus more in terms of the "model man", and in the spirit of NPOV we should allow the different views to be represented. Rev107 06:32, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell from what I have read Oneness Pentecostalism and the New Church have very similar views on God. And I also think Servetus has very similar views to these. I have read the Restoration of Christianity and he repeats his idea of God over and over. It's not just my bias that causes me to believe he holds both to the unity of God and the full divinity of Christ. It is very easy to demonstrate by what he says. Anyone who claims he has a theology similar to modern Unitarians will have a hard time showing evidence. It was very annoying to me when I read "Out of the Flames," and he was made out to be a believer in the Arian heresy.
"God has revealed Himself to us, making Himself outwardly visible through the Word, yet internally perceptible through the spirit." (Preamble to Restoration of Christianity).
"There is nothing greater, reader, than to recognize that God has been manifested as substance, and that His divine nature has been truly communicated to mankind. It is in Christ alone that we shall fully apprehend the manifestation of God Himself through the Word" (Preamble to Restoration of Christianity).
"For the heavenly Word made flesh on earth expressed the substance of flesh so that the flesh itself is said to be from heaven: because that flesh in itself actually has the divine substance from heaven” (Restoration of Christianity, 104).
"In Christ there is not some portion of God, but the whole totality of God, the whole fulfillment of the Word and the spirit" (Restoration of Christianity, 105).
Jasonschnarr 17:53, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
How can Oneness Pentecostalism claim any historical connection with Servetus, when Pentecostalism was invented in the 19th century? At least Unitarians can claim historical continuity through Blandrata and Dávid. And theological ideas (like everything else) are subject to evolution. It is only normal that Servetus's ideas were changed by others in later generations. Otherwise it is merely plagiarism or reconstructionism, but not history. --jofframes 21:44, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
We (speaking as an OP) prefer to think that Pentecostalism was "invented" on the Day of Pentecost c. AD 33! And because we also think that the history of "theological ideas" (some would say Truth) is more significant than organisational history, we trace our beliefs back through time to the source. History is "HIS-story".
Some would argue that Father Christmas has an historical link with Jesus Christ! Rev107 08:50, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Very inspiring thoughts if you believe that stuff, but this is an encyclopaedia, not Sunday school. --jofframes 20:00, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
No, it is not Sunday School, but it ought to be an honest examination of what Servetus himself believed. The way I see it, you are trying to use Servetus to support the UUA agenda, rather than recognize what "stuff" he actually taught. In my opening paragraph to this section, I suggested that both views could be represented. Rev107 02:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I am not supporting the UUA agenda, among other things because I am not a member of the UUA. And saying that Pentecostalism (not Pentecost) started well after Servetus is just plain history. Besides, I do not think that Servetus ever ran along aisles or shouted in church or spoke in funny languages, so try to look beyond mere metaphysics and then try to find similarities between Servetus and Pentecostals, and you will find very few (if any). --jofframes 13:17, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
In this section we are discussing Servetus' theology so I'm not trying to look beyond "metaphysics" ... if by that you mean what Servetus believed. You seem to attach no importance to his faith - a man who died for what he believed! (BTW I am talking about OPs who are primarily distinguished by their doctrine of the Godhead - hence the name). Your views are certainly sympathetic to the UU agenda: radical search for truth, freedom of individual conscience, and applying reason to religion rather than dogma and church authority. I am not opposed to those views being represented, but Servetus' influence has been broader than that, impacting the faith of millions, and this should be reflected in the article. Rev107 07:44, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the theology must be represented, as I BTW have been doing providing quotes and bibliographical references. I will oppose any attempt at misrepresentation of Servetus as a sort of Pentecostal or any misappropiation by a group that IMO seems more Sabellian than Servetian, just as I would oppose any attempt to claim that Servetus was a Unitarian Universalist. Let us stick to the facts of Servetus's life and work and avoid competition about who can claim him. After all, Servetus was a loner, persecuted by Catholics and Protestants alike, and very few raised in his defense then. Let us not forget that either. --jofframes 09:57, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
No one is attempting to do what you fear. All I am suggesting is that the brief comments in the section on "modern relevance" should remain to show that Servetus' theology still has relevance for many Christians around the world today. To describe any man of signficance simply in terms of his "life and work" is inadequate. His legacy is what matters most ... and Servetus' legacy is not limited to the principles affirmed by MSI Rev107 02:16, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Please note that the MSI is a secular organization and therefore it deals with Servetus's theology only as a topic for study and research. It does not pretend to be the only representative or the owner of his legacy. But it certainly preserves his memory and his house, and it has a remarkable activity in the publishing of new books and research on Michael Servetus and his times. If you or your colleagues want to contribute to that effort from your religious point of view and you can produce materials worthy of publication, you are most welcome to send the fruits of your reflection and research to the Institute for consideration. --jofframes 14:04, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. I shall consider it. Rev107 01:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


I think you're right about NC & OP.
Your comments are even more applicable to the Unitarian Universalist congregations. Almost the only relevance I can see that Servetus has to the modern day UUA is that they see him as a symbol of freedom of conscience.
Are you able to confirm which of these quotes comes from The Restoration of Christianity: An English Translation of Christianismi Restitutio, 1553, Edited and translated by Hillar, Marian , & Hoffman, Christopher A.

(A) "There is nothing greater, reader, than to recognize that God has been manifested as substance, and that His divine nature has been truly communicated. We shall clearly apprehend the manifestation of God through the Word and his communication through the Spirit, both of them substantially in Christ alone."
(B) "There is nothing greater, reader, than to recognize that God has been manifested as substance, and that His divine nature has been truly communicated to mankind. It is in Christ alone that we shall fully apprehend the manifestation of God Himself through the Word"

Rev107 07:56, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Dear Rev107, the secondfirst is MY translation of the Spanish edition. It is pretty clear in the footnote. It is unlikely that it is a word by word equivalent of the new English translation, but the meaning should be similar. --jofframes 21:40, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
"Anyone who claims he has a theology similar to modern Unitarians will have a hard time showing evidence." As a UU, I'll second this. We like to count him as a unitarian, but UUs generally don't believe in Jesus as God, and Servetus certainly did. His views are like those of Oneness Pentecostalism because both those views are based on particular Bible verses usually ignored by Trinitarians. Jonathan Tweet 22:04, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Since when is modern Unitarianism defined by how many persons are in God? I thought it was about radical search for truth, freedom of individual conscience, and applying reason to religion rather than dogma and church authority. And Servetus certainly excelled in all those fields (and surely much more than most modern OPs). --jofframes 19:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Everything you say above is true, but you are discussing what Servetus symbolises for UUs, while others see his theological contribution as more significant. In the end, the reader must be allowed to decide. Rev107 02:47, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

quote A is from jofframes

quote B is from The Restoration of Christianity: An English Translation of Christianismi Restitutio, 1553, Edited and translated by Hillar, Marian , & Hoffman, Christopher A.

Jasonschnarr 18:12, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Could you please quote the page for "quote B" in the Hillar edition? The Michael Servetus Institute is going to receive the book in a couple of weeks (kindly sent as a gift by Alicia McNary) and then I will be able to check it myself.
FYI, this is the original Latin text:

omnium maxima, lector, Deum cognoscere substantialiter manifestatum ac diuinam ipsam naturam vere communicatam. Manifestationem Dei ipsius per verbum, et communicationem per spiritum, vtrinque in solo Christo substantialem, in solo ipso plane discernemus, vt tota verbi et spiritus deitas in homine dignoscatur.

--jofframes 23:35, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Governing Council

An interesting article! I noticed the phrases "... he was burnt at the stake by order of the Protestant Geneva governing council as a heretic." and "...and the Geneva Council refused his request." and I couldn't help but wonder, who were the members of this council? Who was the leader? How many people were on the council? Was there a vote? Was it unanimous? Has this been documented? Bebopadopoulos (talk) 19:38, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

All this historical information about the political system in Geneva in Calvin's time is perfectly documented, just check any good biography of Calvin. In the death sentence itself there is no hint at disagreements inside the Council, you can check it yourself in Bainton's Hunted Heretic, pp. 140-2 (Blackstone Editions, 2005). --jofframes (talk) 00:05, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] His Name

I see that Michael Servetus's name has been changed from Miguel to Miquel. Is there some valid (probably Aragonese) reason for this? Also, the alias Reves, known for his father the notary, has been attributed to our subject as well. Is this true and documented? J S Ayer (talk) 01:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)