Talk:Mezhbizh (Hasidic dynasty)

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This article was nominated for deletion on October 11, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

Contents 1 Deletion debate 2 Do not delete at this time 3 Fixing the article 4 Context 5 Rabbi Bick? 6 Messed up the Medzhibozh Rabbinic Lineage bigtime! 7 Facts wrong about Rabbi Boruch's descendants in Medzhibozh 8 Spelling of Medzhibozh 9 Mezhbizh (Hasidic dynasty) at Mediation Cabal 10 References and problems with this dynasty 11 Conclusion 12 Zvhil-Mezhbizh of Boston

[edit] Deletion debate

I don't see why we need this article, in light of the fact that we already have the Zhvill article. Please convince me not to put a delete tag on it.--Meshulam 11:43, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you -- I'm new to wikipedia and in looking through the various Hasidic dynasties and clicking on Mezbuz in the list I found no information at all about the place which was after all the Baal Shem Tov's rebbestrive and therefore the source of Hasidus. In trying to fill some of that in, the only way to 'update' and make it somewhat relevant to the present and accurate was to link it to the Zviller in Boston who is actually the Zvhil-Mezbuz Rebbe and whose 'real' lineage through the males in the family is from Mezbuz going back to R' Boruch and the Baal Shem Tov. The Zvhil side comes from his grandfather's father-in-law who his grandfather succeeded and became rebbe in his father's lifetime (which was a Chernobyl practice from his mother and grandparents who were cousins of my own grandparents). So rather than have a blank hole about Mezibuz, where the Baal Shem Tov, R' Boruch'l, and their descendants until the Zviller's great grandfather held court, I tried to fill it in as best as I could. Also, the Rebbe's grandfather was Zviller Rebbe only until his own father died in Mezbuz, at which time he became Zviller-Mezbuz Rebbe, so I felt we should also round out the picture with the Mezbuz side. Hope that explains it -- let me know if you need more. --ChosidFrumBirth 17:22, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why we need to have a page that mirrors both the Zhvill page, and the Zhviller Rebbe's page. I am proposing that it be deleted. --Meshulam 21:06, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I understand your point of view, but not only is this page different from those even though it relates to some of the same individuals, but without it there is absolutely no information on the place where the Baal Shem Tov began Hasidus, and no information or links on the descendants of that line. Please reconsider. Thank you. --ChosidFrumBirth 09:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I am very glad to see that this article will not be deleted at this time. Wikipedia was lacking an article about the hometown of the Besht and its subsequent Hasidic dynasties and I was glad to see it included.

[edit] Do not delete at this time

Meshulam: You should avoid this kind of move (the hasty nomination to delete) because it's a slippery slope and could lead to the nomination for and deletion of similar articles about smaller Hasidic dynasties - by people who are not experts and don't care - with unintended consequences. Votes to delete are open to the world and you are inviting people who have no idea what this topic is about at all to cast a vote, which is very unfair and lacking insight. It seems that you may have been better off trying to add a {{merge to}} template or considered MERGING the material at some point perhaps and WAITED (at least a month!) to do so. You should also have first started a discussion at a number of places where people who know something about this topic could have given their intelligent input, such as at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism and Wikipedia talk:Orthodox Rabbinical Biography Collaboration of the Week. Or you could have contacted other editors who deal with topics like this to solicit their views. This action of your is extreme and I do not condone it. I urge you to withdraw this nomination. Thank you. (I am cross-posting this message on a couple of relevant places, to get people's attention.) IZAK 10:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fixing the article

The article has some serious issues with POV and OR. I am going to try to fix some of those problems.--Meshulam 21:18, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you -- it needed that. Great job. I will make some minor corrections. --ChosidFrumBirth 23:03, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Context

The article has some serious context issues. The authors should put together some information (that complies with POV and OR) that gives a context to the numerous names that are dropped in the article.

• Firstly please sign your comments with the four tildes ~~~~ so that we can know who is saying things around here. Secondly, while you are essentialy correct, most articles relating to the Category:Hasidic dynasties have material in them that will need to be double-checked and sourced even more over time. Finally, because so much of Hasidism is based on well-known "oral histories" (but sometimes obscure stories) care should be taken that these oral histories and stories are at least placed on the record and when they are written out that is when the process of double checking them and re-cehcking them can begin, which will time-consuming, but ultimately rewarding as it will provide a good encyclopedia on the subject for those who want to know more about it but would never find it anywhere else. IZAK 05:58, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rabbi Bick?

is this the place to mention Rabbi Moshe Bick zt"l, and his son Rabbi Avraham Yehoshua Bick, shlit"a, the Mezhbuzher Rebbe of Boro Park? Itzik18 07:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Probably not - it's not part of the same dynasty, and I think he is the Mezhbuz Rov (and poisek for Skwer Boro Park), not Rebbe. --ChosidFrumBirth 09:19, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that if a noted Rov has a connection with a Hasidic dynasty it is logical and acceptable that he be mentioned in a sub-section in this article, such as "People associated with Medzhibozh" or "Other notable rabbis associated with Medzhibozh." However if a rabbi or Rov is notable enough in his own right he can have an article devoted to him exclusively. This would be a good topic to bring up with editors at Wikipedia talk:Orthodox Rabbinical Biography Collaboration of the Week. IZAK 09:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I added more details about the Bicks. I think it is important, as this is a true rabbinic dynasty that really did live and ran the show in Medzhibozh. More so than some of the other rebbes mention who may have never set foot in Medzhibozh. --Klezmer 01:14, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

There is a large section on the non-hasidic Rapoport/Bick dynasty. How does that fit into an article entitled Medzhibozh (Hasidic dynasty)? Surely it should be in a separate article, covering the Jewish Community of Medzhybizh?--Redaktor 13:07, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Redaktor. The Bick family has absolutely no place in an article about the Medzhibozh hasidic dynasty; they are a Rabbinic family, not a hasidic dynasty. The Bick family nowadays are Hasidim and maybe one day will become a Chasidus like Nitra, Dushinsky, Makeve, Vien which have metamorphosisized to Rebbes. Rav Moshe Bick was known as a Posek not as a Hasid. They do actually have a place in an article about Jewish Medzhibozh. To place it here is to stand history on its head. Itzse 22:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I also think Redaktor made a good point, as I said on the other talk page where this is being discussed (list of Hasidic dynasties). --ChosidFrumBirth 22:53, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Since no-one has disgreed with my suggestion, I am moving the section on the Rapoport/Bick dynasty to Medzhybizh#Jewish_History, where it belongs.--Redaktor 22:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't belong there. A dynastic listing has no place in the history of a town. It belongs where dynasties are listed. If you want to spin this off into a separate article, that's fine by me. But you can't make a claim about Medzhibozh rabbinic dynasties without mentioning the Bicks. And today, they are chasidic. All gets into the definition of what a dynasty is, which no one is willing to answer. --Klezmer 23:31, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I have no objection to a separate article about the Rapoport-Bicks. I guess you can also put the chasidishe Bicks in here. But you cannot put a non-chasidish dynasty in an article titled Medzhibozh (Hasidic dynasty). Especially when the proposal ahs been here for over a week and no-one else supports Klezmer's position. --Redaktor 00:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that Redaktor and others are absolutely correct -- Klezmer is not being reasonable or objective, and repeetedly refering other people's edits back and calling us all a bunch of "Hasidic fanatics" (See User_talk:Tutmosis and User_talk:Editor_at_Large) just because nobody agrees with him or with his agenda or version of the truth is not productive. --ChosidFrumBirth 00:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Such nastiness from ChosidFrumBirth is completely uncalled for. We are having a logical reasonable discussion here. No need for personal attacks. --Klezmer 04:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry -- didn't think I was being nasti -- but you don't answer when I leave comments on your talk page, and you ignore everyone else's opinion and just continue to revert to your own version over and over without any compromise --that doesn't sound like reasonable discussion to me -- and your calling us "Hasidic fanatics" whose making the personal attacks here? --ChosidFrumBirth 13:40, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I wish we could have a reasonable discussion, Klezmer. So far you have discussed nothing, reverting my reasonable edit without giving a rationale. I really must ask you to desist from reverting my edit (explained carefully) without an explanation.--Redaktor 19:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

See the discussion in Talk:List of Hasidic dynasties. That's where the discussion is. --Klezmer 19:57, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Messed up the Medzhibozh Rabbinic Lineage bigtime!

Okay, folks, this is really messed up. You've got it right up until R. Boruch of Medzhibozh - his direct lineage to the Chasidic dynasties ended upon his death in 1811 in Medzhibozh. Yes, there were other direct descendents of the Besht, such as R. Nachman of Bratslav. But NONE lived in Medzhibozh after R. Boruch. The next Medzhibozher Chasidic dynasties were related to the Apter Rebbe - R. Abraham Joshua Heshel of Apta. He arrived in Medzhibozh in 1813 in the power vacuum left behind after R. Boruch's death. His descendents and those of his family who married into the Friedman family (Sadgora Dynasty) were the people who claimed the throne of the Medzhibozher dynasties.

This is just not true. Rabbi Boruch had grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren who inherited his house and lived there until the early 1900's. Rabbi Yaakov Yisroel of Zvil was born in that house to his father Rabbi Mordechai of Medzhibozh and lived there until he married the Zviler Rabbi's daughter and moved to Zvil. --ChosidFrumBirth 13:01, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, ChosidFrumBirth, give me proof! To me that's just heresay. I have never seen a document that mentions it. And even if it were true, R. Boruch's brand of Chasidism fizzled out in Medzhibozh, replaced by the Apter Rebbe. There's plenty of proof of that one. See, for instance, some of Ansky's work from the 1914 period. So, any descendant of R. Boruch who might have existed would have been merely a figurehead in Medzhibozh after R. Boruch's death and not the scion of a dynasty.

This isn't a fight or competition. And it's not a debate over what is a dynasty or isn't. It also isn't a discussion over the so-called scholars or what is proof. The fact is there is a lineage and descendants of Rabbi Boruch who were born there, lived there, inherited Boruch's property etc. and continued whatever it was that you say Boruch was or wasn't. Period. Apt isn't Medzhibozh and Medzhibozh isn't Apt, so give it a rest. --ChosidFrumBirth 17:24, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to see proof and I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation. If you are promoting what you believe are facts, prove it! I can tell you this... Tzvi M. Rabinowicz, 1996, The Encyclopedia of Hasidism, Jason Aronson, provides no such evidence. Most researchers in this subject consider the Rabinowicz source a fair, even-handed treatment of the subject. Moreover, it was always considered one of the most complete sources on this type of material. What it does say is that the Zvill/Goldman Rabbinic family was descended from the Baal Shem Tov spiritual heritage through R. Yekhiel Mikhel, which gives it the Mezhbizh connection. However, none of the Goldman bios listed in Rabinowicz was born or lived in Medzhibozh. Including - R. Yaakov Yisroel of Zvil (born in Zvil according to Rabinowicz, p. 154! No surprise there.) The Zviller Dynasty is represented in the Chasidic Dynasty charts I provided on this page, so no need for R. Boruch's so-called dynasty. Also, see Zvil Dynasty page. There is no reference to R. Mordechai of Medzhibozh as the father of R. Yekhiel Mikhiel of Zvil. R. Mordechai is of Zvil by both Rabinowicz and the Zvil Dynasty page. No document that I am aware of shows that either one had ever lived in Medzhibozh. If what you say is true, I'd like to see the proof. No such documents I've seen about Medzhibozh mentions this. If so, you've stumbled onto something new. --Klezmer 04:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Just goes to show you how published books can be wrong. Also, not every oral history has been put into writing, particularly among Hasidic dynasties. First, I'm not promoting anything. Second, you're confusing Zvil with Mezhbizh, and they are totaly separate. There is no reference to Mordechai of Meddzhibozh as the father of Yekhiel Mikhiel of Zvil because he wasn't -- no connection at all, and we're not talking about the Goldman/Zvil family. The only connection is that Rabbi Yaakov Yisroel (who was born in Mezbhibozh to his father Rabbi Mordechai of Mezhbizh who was from his father in Mezbhbiz etc etc back to Boruch), married R. Yekhiel Mikihiel of Zvil's daughter and then moved to Zvil and then became rebbe there. That is general knowledge in that family and among all the the Chernobl dynasty rebbes who are related. It's not for you or me to decide what is a dynasty, but these are the facts. When I have the next opportunity I will ask the Skvira rebbe who I know will know and try to find your "proof". in the meantime let it rest --ChosidFrumBirth 13:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The Bick family was a totally different rabbinic dynasty who would NOT be considered Chasidic. They were responsible for the official religious "business" of the community, such as relations with the Russian authorities, kashrut rulings, etc. They were based out of R. Joel Sirkes' synagogue in Medzhibozh - the largest shul in town. They were descendents of the Rapaport lineage. The first was R. Dov Berish Rapaport haCohen, who was the head of the Bet Din in Medzhibozh until his death in 1803. He would have been a contemporary of R. Boruch. The Bet Din remained in the hands of the Rapaport/Bick family until 1925 when R. Chaim Yekhiel Mikhel Bick left Medzhibozh for New York. Other members included R. Isaac Bick who was the head of the Bet Din in Mezhibozh until 1902 when he left for Rhode Island. There are still Bick rabbis today who have congregations in Brooklyn and in Israel.

For a complete reference, see Chapin and Weinstock, 2000, The Road from Letichev, chapter 2 The Rabbis. --Klezmer 03:36, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Lineage alleged "messed up" by Klezmer has now been established and accepted.--ChosidFrumBirth 19:26, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Facts wrong about Rabbi Boruch's descendants in Medzhibozh

Someone please justify the following statement: "Reb Mordechai, was the last Mezibuz Rebbe to inherit and hold court in the Baal Shem Tov's home". I can find absolutely no evidence for this statement.

Sefer Meshivas Nefesh Yitzchok

Can you quote the exact passage from this book? Can you provide a scanned copy of the Yiches Brief? That would be a great value to scholars of this subject. --Klezmer 11:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

First of all, in the genealogy presented, I cannot find evidence that R. Mordechai was from Medzhibozh at all. All the sources I have list him from Zvill (born, raised and died there).

Wrong R. Mordechai -- there was Mordechai in Chernobl, another in Zvil, etc. etc -- this one is from Medzhibozh according to Alfasi's history of Hasidim.

And I'm questioning whether Alfasi's history is accurate or not. --Klezmer 11:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Second, there is absolutely no evidence that anyone ever used the Baal Shem Tov's home after he died. In fact, quite the contrary. I have three sources on this. (1) Abraham Rechtman of the Ansky ethnographic expeditions (1914) reports that the house was turned into a shrine with everything left the way it was when the Baal Shem Tov lived there. [Rechtman, 1958, Yidishe etnografye un folklor, YIVO, Buenos Aries]. (2) This is collaborated by an oral testimony taken in 1994 reported in Chapin & Weinstock [2000] from Medzhibozh resident Dora Zichroni of events that took place between 1910-1921. Zichroni recalled as a kid sneaking past Chasid guards at the Baal Shem Tov's house and peering into the windows. She recalled it as being a daring act because the place was scary, with everything the way it was left 150 years earlier. She also noted how everyone was superstitious about disturbing the spirit of the Baal Shem Tov by desecrating the place. She claimed no one lived there, because it was treated as holy ground. (3) This is further collaborated in a Holocaust testimony by Holocaust-survivor Moishe Einhorn, recorded in Yad Vashem. Einhorn describes tearing down the Baal Shem Tov's house and shul and using it for firewood in the Medzhibozh ghetto. He claims that there was considerable trepidation and fear of supernatural death about breaking down the Baal Shem Tov's sealed up home as no one dared do it for almost 200 years prior. But the ghetto inhabitants figured they were dead anyway if they couldn't keep warm in the winter. So they did it. ["The Medzhibozh Ghetto", Testimony within Yiddish periodical Sovietish Heimland, 1981 edition, published in U.S.S.R.].

All that was after Rebbe Mordechai died, his son Rebbe Yaakov Yisroel was Rebbe in Zvil by then and then according to Alfasi left Zvil for Boston in 1915. So looks like Rebbe Mordechai and Rebbe Yaakov were the last ones in the Baal Shem tov's house, and the last Rebbes there before it was transferred to Zvil and then Boston. Doesn't take anything away from the Bicks, Klezmer. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ChosidFrumBirth (talk • contribs) 02:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC).

Give me some dates, here. What's interesting to me is that if this lineage was so important to include them on this Wiki page, and if they lived and died in Medzhibozh, how come they aren't buried in the Medzhibozh Cemetery? One would think if they were so important, they would have elaborate graves right near the Baal Shem Tov. R. Boruch does, where's the others of his so-called dynasty? Take a look at Chapin & Weinstock (2000) who provides a map and inventory of the Medzhibozh Jewish Cemetery. The only ones buried in the vicinity of the Baal Shem Tov are the Apter Rebbe, R. Boruch, Zev-Wolf Kitses (a disciple), R. Landa, and the Rapoport/Bick line. These Medzhibozh "Dynasty" folks must indeed be obscure. --Klezmer 11:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

So, folks, unless you can provide reasonable evidence of this business about Reb Mordechai, I'm going to delete the statement as untrue. I'll give you guys a week to figure it out; otherwise it goes bye-bye.

All of that obviously took place later. According to Alfasi Rabbi Yaakov Yisroel was born in Medzhibozh in 1883 the Baal Shem Tov's house which was his father's Rabbi Mordechai and then he married the Zviler Rebbes daughter and moved to Zvil.

Still doesn't explain why Zichroni and Rechtman independently claim about 20 years later that no one lived there for over 100 years. Nor does it explain why items left in the house were noted as being in the exact location as when the Baal Shem Tov died. I'm guessing now, but if there's even a shred of truth to this story, it may be that Alfasi is describing events occuring in R. Boruch's house, which was a different house. But even this can't be corroborated by other evidence, such as census or tax records. Thus, it still casts doubt on the Alfasi source material as being severely flawed. --Klezmer 11:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Klezmer—Alfasi is an established authority in this field and may be quoted as a RS. If you disagree with something he says it is not appropriate to delete it. The proper thing to do in an encyclopedia is to quote the opposing opinion with its source. If the difference of opinion is just your own research on the subject I doubt that it should appear here (OR).--Redaktor 08:30, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm checking on some of the other details presented. Someone needs to put some dates on this. We can't just go on heresay with these articles; they have to be based on real facts. Otherwise, they are just bubbameisis. So far, I've mostly found bubbameisis... --Klezmer 02:02, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Not all of Jewish history, particularly Hasidic history, has been reserached or recorded or even writen about -- all these books are new and don't compete with family history passed down -- go ask the rebbes and they'll tell you. Sorry if this conflicts with your stories about the Bick family -- it doesn't take anythign away from them, but don't deny facts just because you don't know anything about it or can't find it recorded in some book somewhere. --ChosidFrumBirth 02:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Not a fair statement. Scholars in this field (and I consider myself one, with over 30 years experience in this subject) can find written documented evidence through things like tax records, census of houses in the town, yiches briefs from books written by the Tsadiks, notes written in margins of siddurs, etc. BTW, I scoured all the Russian tax records and every census I can lay my hands on, and I cannot come up with any of these people. Look, ChosidFrumBirth, if there is a new discovery that I was unaware of, that's a great find. I'd be thrilled to death to add it to our scholarly body of knowledge. But the problem so far seems to be a lack of independent corraborating evidence other than heresay. And the negative evidence seems at this point to be overwhelming.

My bottom line is that the evidence seems to show after R. Boruch, this so-called "dynasty" doesn't exist, at least not in Medzhibozh. Sure he left descendants, but that's not the point. These descendants seemed to have merged into other, more prominent sects. When I think of "dynasty" I'm considering the whole gamut of a spiritual legacy including followers of that legacy, similar to what R. Nachman of Bratslav left behind. (I bring up R. Nachman only because his seems to be the only still-active dynasty (dead end as it were) with a true uncontested blood relationship to the Baal Shem Tov. I'm not a Bratslaver and have no stake in any of the Chasidic sects, I'm just interested in presenting the truth.). --Klezmer 11:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Facts alleged "wrong" by Klezmer have now been established and accepted --ChosidFrumBirth 19:26, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling of Medzhibozh

The spelling situation of the town throughout this article is inconsistent. Frankly, it's a mess!

Medzhibozh is the official way it is spelled (through Library of Congress transliteration methodology) using the Russian usage. This was in effect from 1795-1995. Prior to that it was the Polish usage, which is also a mess but fortunately not used in this article. After that, it is the Ukrainian spelling, which is Medzhybizh, which probably should be the official usage in wiki. Problem is that there are some Yiddish usages in the article, and depending on your Yiddish dialect, you might call it something different. Also, another problem is the title of the wiki article itself.

I vote for "Medzhybizh" to be wiki consistent. I can live with Medzhibozh, because it was in use for 200 years and during the time period covered by this article.--Klezmer 14:43, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

In principle the use of the Ukrainian spelling Medzhybizh is preferred. However, it is standard practice in all the Hasidic dynasty articles to use the Yiddish town names, as these are what the dynasties are known by. It would be inconsistent for this article to depart from that practice. The dialect of Yiddish that is relevant is the one local to the town under consideration.--Redaktor 23:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I leave it to you to dink with. The Yiddish pronunciation in the town of Medzhibozh at the time when Yiddish speakers were there was "Mezhbizh" like the article says (mostly). However, the title of the article is wrong, if it follows your convention.--Klezmer 03:57, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mezhbizh (Hasidic dynasty) at Mediation Cabal

A long-simmering editorial dispute between Klezmer (talk · contribs) and ChosidFrumBirth (talk · contribs) over how to deal with information about certain Hasidic topics has reached the Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal. Please see and provide any helpful input at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-04-29 Mezhbizh (Hasidic dynasty). Thank you, IZAK 15:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References and problems with this dynasty

In the interest of preserving all the accumulated references found scattered in other pages, I thought it appropriate to document them all here together on this page.

References proving the existence of this dynasty

ChosidFrumBirth provides the following references that describe this dynasty:

• Toldos Anshei Shem, Rand and Greenblat, New York, 1950, page 114 says that "Rebbe Yaakov Yisroel was born 1882 in Medzhiboz to his father the Rav, the tzadik, the Admor of Mezbuz."

• Sefer Meshivas published by the Zvil-Mezhbizh Bais Midrash about the current Zvhil-Mezhbizh rebbe tracing the lineage back directly down from Boruch to Yehiel Michael (the grandson mentioned by Wiesel) to Yehiel's son Mordechai to Mordechai's son Yaakov Yisroel, page 6, Sefer Mishivas Nefesh Yitzhak, 2000, 2001, second Revised Edition ISBN 0-9645367-1-4, and there is also their website at www.rebbe.org which has the same information.

• Otzar Harabonim Encyclopedia of Rabbis, Admorim, Roshei Yeshiva, etc., Rabbi Noson Zvi Friedman, Bnai Brak, 1975; Page 297, Entry Number 14214 Harav Rebbe Mordechai Korf, Rav Zadik Mefursom, Admor MiMedzhboz. His son Harav Rebbe Yaakov Yisroel Korf (10194).

• Sefer Zichron Mair, Rav Yehuda Mair Schapira, Av Beis Din and Ram M'Lublin zt"l and Harav Avrohom Schapira, New York, 1953: "Moreinu Harav Yaakov Yisroel was born in 1882 to his father Harav Hatzadik Rebbe Motele, the Admor of Medzhiboz"

Statements in previous versions of this page talk about individuals living, owning, or being born in the Baal Shem Tov's house and that they were the last Rabbi ever to reside in Mezhbizh. These statements are directly contradicted by other references.

Contradictory evidence - Baal Shem Tov's House

• Abraham Rechtman of the Ansky ethnographic expeditions (1914) reports that the house was turned into a shrine with everything left the way it was when the Baal Shem Tov lived there. [Rechtman, 1958, Yidishe etnografye un folklor, YIVO, Buenos Aries].

• Oral testimony taken in 1994 reported in Chapin & Weinstock, 2000, The Road from Letichev, ISBN 0-595-00666-3 from Medzhibozh resident Dora Zichroni of events that took place between 1910-1921. Zichroni recalled as a kid sneaking past Chasid guards at the Baal Shem Tov's house and peering into the windows. She recalled it as being a daring act because the place was scary, with everything the way it was left 150 years earlier. She also noted how everyone was superstitious about disturbing the spirit of the Baal Shem Tov by desecrating the place. She claimed no one lived there, because it was treated as holy ground.

• Holocaust testimony by Holocaust-survivor Moishe Einhorn, recorded in Yad Vashem. Einhorn describes tearing down the Baal Shem Tov's house and shul and using it for firewood in the Medzhibozh ghetto. He claims that there was considerable trepidation and fear of supernatural death about breaking down the Baal Shem Tov's sealed up home as no one dared do it for almost 200 years prior. But the ghetto inhabitants figured they were dead anyway if they couldn't keep warm in the winter. So they did it. ["The Medzhibozh Ghetto", Testimony within Yiddish periodical Sovietish Heimland, 1981 edition, published in U.S.S.R.].

These three references contradict that the Baal Shem Tov's house was ever used after his death. These three references are independent of each other in that none of these individuals probably knew each other or had any vested interest in making up the same story. They fit Wiki's criteria of verifiability WP:VER. These references are corroborated by a huge body of raw data - that of various censuses and other official name lists. There are 16 of them scattered throughout the world in various archives. These can be considered independent, as well, since they were collected at the time by different people for different official uses.

• Summary of the Census and other lists: 1739 Polish tax census Medzhibozh, house #95, occupied by Moses (don't know who this is). Same for 1740 census. 1742, house #95, occupied by the Baal Shem Tov (yes, it actually says that in Polish, I'm not making this up. BTW, he didn't have to pay any taxes!). Same for 1758 and 1760 census - Baal Shem Tov is the occupant. In 1763 census, it is no longer occupied by the Baal Shem Tov, but by someone by the name of Hershel (Baal Shem Tov's son or adopted son maybe?). From that point on in every census, the house is occupied by the Kahal, while every other house surrounding it has a named occupant. That means it was a community resource. It also means no one lived there! Once the Russians took control, the census was less frequent, but the results are the same. There was an 1795 census. There was an 1826 and 1835 census. There was a "synagogue list" in 1853, which listed all the places of worship and every practicing rabbi in town. There was an 1861 census, an 1872 and 1898 census, 1905 voter registration list (which listed all the rabbis). House #95 is listed in several of these lists. The results are the same, no one was occupying the house!

Contradictory Evidence - Individuals ever residing in Mezhbizh

• Interestingly, none of the names listed in the Mezhbizh Dynasty show up on any of these lists in the previous bullet. They don't even show up in the synagogue lists or the voter registration lists, which supposedly list all the rabbis in town at the time. Moreover the names don't show up in official lists kept by the Jewish Kahal of Medzhibozh at the time, which are filed in official archives. These include Pinkas records of the Crown Rabbi registering births and deaths and heads of households [Kamenets-Podolsky Archives], and the records of the Khevrah Kadisha registering deaths from about 1830 to about 1890 [Verdnasky Library, Kiev].

• Even more odd, none of these individuals appear in inventory lists of the Medzhibozh Cemetery. There are two such inventories, one in English by Chapin and Weinstock, 2000, The Road from Letichev, ISBN 0-595-00666-3, p. 164-9, and another in Russian, Lukin, 1997, 100 еврейских местечек Украины Vol. 1, St. Petersburg, ISBN 5-89007-008-9. Also, an earlier inventory is in (Russian language) Dvorkin, 1994, "The Old Jewish Cemetery of the Town of Medzhibozh" in Dimshitz, ed., The History of the Jews in Ukraine and Byelorussia, Expeditions, Monuments and Finds: Petersburg Jewish University History and Ethnography Series No. 2, p. 185-213. Rabbi Boruch is buried there, but apparently none of his descendants are.

Of course, it doesn't necessarily mean that these people didn't live in Mezhbizh, just that they were invisible in the town to these officials for whatever reason. They may not have died here, thus no burials. This is pretty strange, though. It is unusual that these people (who one would presume had followers) were certainly not dominant in the town. The dominant rabbinic families and sects in Mezhbizh after the death of Rabbi Boruch apparently are the Rapaport-Bicks and the Apters (the Apter Rebbe arrived here just 2 years after Rabbi Boruch's death). This is born out by numerous records and documents about them in the government archives, not to mention numerous newspaper articles written about them in the Jewish press at the time (c.f. haMelets). There are no such newspaper articles on record about the Mezhbizh Dynasty individuals that I can find (I searched the archives at the N.Y. Public Library).

Claim of the name "Mezhbizh" for other rabbinic dynasties

We may actually have a unique situation in this town - home to the Chasidic movement - that more than one dynasty claims the name of the town as their own. The Apter sect is sometimes known as "Mezhbizhers". Two references for this:

• Pinkas Zinkov, Tel Aviv, 1966, describes two distinct branches of Apter Chasidim: Mezhbizher and Zinkover. They call them Zinkover Chasidim and Mezhbizher Chasidim. This book was written from either eyewitness accounts or newspaper reports from the period. This source calls Chasidim from the Apter line "Mezhbizhers" and they weren't talking about Boruch's line (c.f. p. 139-144).

• Professor Abraham Joshua Heschel (1907-1972), the famous 20th century theologian and descendant of the Apter Rebbe, himself called his family "Mezhbizhers". See his biography, Kaplan and Dresner, 1998, Abraham Joshua Heschel: Prophetic Witness, ISBN 0-300-07186-8, p. 6. His grandfather, R. Abraham Joshua Heshel of Medzhibozh (1832-1881) was known as the "Mezhbizher Rebbe". (His father, R. Moshe Mordechai (1873-1916) was also born there.) This is all carefully documented and the people all show up in the official town censuses and name lists.

Claim that this dynasty was the last to leave in the town

• Bick family memoirs, published in Bnei Brak, 1994, by Batya Furst (R. Chaim Bick's daughter). She says, p. 1, "Rabbi Khaim Yekhiel Mikhel Bick emigrated from Medzhibozh to New York in 1925. He was the last rabbi to serve in any official religious role in Medzhibozh. Everyone in the town of Medzhibozh accompanied the rabbi to the edge of town when he left for America." Further, on p. 5 it says "Rabbi Khaim Bick was the only Jewish religious leader of any type left in Medzhibozh after the Bolshevik Revolution and subsequent Civil War". This contradicts the claim that Reb Mordechai of the Mezhbizh Dynasty was the last rabbi left in the town. This, again, is corroborated by town censuses and other name lists.

Conclusions

1. There's documented evidence for the existence of this dynasty.
2. Various claims made by this dynasty are problematic. They left an invisible footprint on the town of Mezhbizh. Or perhaps they never really lived there, but claimed they did later. I don't understand how or why, but that's what the facts say. Therefore, I support keeping the article, but without reference to who lived or was born in the Baal Shem Tov's house. Also, I believe we should omit any mention of who was the last rabbi in the town. Both these items are contradicted by numerous sources.
3. There's evidence that both the Rapaport-Bick rabbinic dynasty and the Apter dynasty makes claim to the same town name for their dynastic name as does the family of the Besht. This needs to be acknowledged by continuing to have links from this page to those other pages. Otherwise, there will be confusion. Besides, it adds to the quality of this page by acknowledging the others.--Klezmer 06:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Resolution of contradiction—last rebbe in Mezhbizh

I assume the following comments were entered by Redaktor, even though he didn't sign it.--Klezmer 18:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Combining the sources, R' Mordechai of Mezhbizh (d. 1900) was the last Mezhbizher Rebbe to live in Mezhbizh. His son R' Yaakov Yisroel lived in Zvhil. Rav Bick left Mezhbizh in 1925 and was the last Rov in town. These statements are both true, but are not contradictory!

Agreed. However, any claim that a Mezhbizh dynasty member was the absolute last Rabbi living in the town is not correct - and that's what it said previously.--Klezmer 18:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

BTW Klezmer, are you certain that no-one was born in Mezhbizh in 1882 with a name equivalent to Yaakov Yisroel, such as Srul? Redaktor17:38, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I double checked the lists again. Remember, the name Israel, Srul or some variant was very rare in Mezhbizh because of superstitions about taking the Baal Shem Tov's name. [see Beider, 1993, Dictionary of Jewish Surnames from the Russian Empire, Avotaynu, ISBN 9626373-3-5] The best I can provide are names from the 1905 and 1912 Voter lists, which supposedly always included rabbis. I'll give you the entire District, just in case they were registered in a neighboring village. In the 1905 list here are the closest names: Izrail Berkovich Kuperberg and Srul Abramovich Geshel. (BTW, the -ovich is the patronymic). Those are the closest names but not a match. Note, the second name is a Geshel aka "Heshel" (no "H" in Russian) -- the current Apter Rebbe of the day! In the 1912 Voter Lists, which one might assume might have Yaakov (Yankel) Yisroel (Srul) son of Mordechai (Mordkovich), the list is much longer, but still no name. There's a Ios Mordkovich Khodorov. (I think Ios is Russified Yosef, not Yisroel). Yankel Lev, Yankel Sigal, Yankel Kats, Srul Leybovich Markizon, Srul Gdalevich Tsipris, Srul Entelis, Yankel Sheyvakhovich Shneyfer, Mordko Yakelevich Rozenberg, Shulim Mordkovich Tarlo, Bentsion Mordkovich Ushitskiy. These are the closest names I can find, but I think you'd agree that none are really matches. No names of the sort on any other list. I don't have a list of birth records specifically from the year 1882. The Russian Census of 1898 does not list anyone with those names living in Mezhbizh. The synagogue list of 1858 does not list anyone from this family, but it probably should have included R. Mordechai or his father R. Yikhiel Mikhel. The 1895 Russian Business directory doesn't list any of these people. The list Mezhbizh Merchants 1880 doesn't list this family (though one wouldn't expect it to). The 1861 town census doesn't list any of these people, either, though it has an interesting entry about a Jewish Beis Midrash owned by a certain Duvid Tsimelzon, previously owned by Volka Moshkovich (don't know who they are or if it is at all connected with anything). That's the best I can do. I tried very hard to find these people, but they don't seem to exist in any of the records. Like you, I wish they did, so they wouldn't seem so controversial.--Klezmer 18:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

1905 is too late. by all accounts R' Mordchai was the last rebbe of the dynasty to live in Mezhbizh, and he died in 1900. Presumably by then his son was married and living in Zvhil with his in-laws.--Redaktor 22:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Whatever... that's your interpretation and we're not supposed to interpret on Wiki, just cite the sources WP:OR. Do we really know that the son left by then? It still doesn't explain why they are missing from the 1895 Business Directory or the 1898 Vsia Russia Census for the town. (Similar or the same names repeat on these lists as I quoted in the 1905 and 1914 lists, but I won't bore you with the details.) Or even the earlier censuses, when someone from the clan should have been there, like the 1861 census. Unfortunately, much as we'd like to have lists at certain times, we're stuck with the name lists at the times that they happen to have been collected. Also, it doesn't explain why there is not a single reference of these people in the Jewish press at the time. That record is fairly complete and well-indexed during the 1870-1890 time period. They often mentioned new children being born of prominent rebbes. Yes, the record is not perfect, but it's a record nonetheless. The purpose of this Talk section is simply to provide the documentation in one place and let others decide or perhaps help uncover new information that we all are missing.--Klezmer 22:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Nice try Klezmer, claim you want to "let others decide" but of course anytime others decide, which is over and over and over, Klezmer doesn't accept it anyway, just argues and argues and opposes and even refuses mediation because the overwhelming proof and evidence goes against his version. But he says "whatever . . . that's your interpretation," and only his interpretation can be right.

No, the purpose of this talk page is obviously for Klezmer no matter what anybody else or any other evidence or sources say to keep the articles only his way and harass anybody who doesn’t agree with him and try to discredit anything he doesn’t agree with.

Klezmer will come up with any argument he can to deny this dynasty or at least cloud it with Apters (whether the Apters from Medzbhizbozh who were referred to as the Medzbhizbozh Apters to distinguish them from the Zinkov Apters, but they were still Apters not Medzhibozhers), or they weren't really born there and didn't really exist because he can't find them in the registers which, in his words "supposedly" included all rabbis, so of course the only acceptable answer to Klezmer is they were ghosts. Ignore plenty of reasons why people, not to mention rebbes, might want to avoid the authorities or not be included in lists, or any number of other reasons why Klezmer can't find them (not that he really wants to of course).

Not that any of that should matter anyway because the bottom line is if the Medzhibozh Rebbe of today descends directly from Baruch while the Apters, Bicks, Rapoports don't so they can't be continuing Baruch's Medzbhizbozh dynasty anyway (which is of course why they are Apters or Bicks or Rapoports who might have been from Medzhibozh, but not continuation of Baruch's Medzhibozh dynasty. But Klezmer doesn't hold by logic anyway. I don't really care about this and I don't know how I got so sucked into this but ok, I’ll bite one more time, thanks to Redaktor.

Redaktor, thanks for the great idea about the name Srul. I just got back from visiting with a friend of mine who collects documents, most of them American, about Rebbes. We found a US Dept of Labor Document #183061 from 1922 that certifies a Rabbi called “Srul Korf” in Boston (sure sounds like Grand Rabbi Yakov Yisroel), who according to the US Government was born in “Medjubisz” (that’s exactly how it’s typed on the document) and before living permanently in Boston resided in “Medjiretz” and “Koretz”. Sounds like he was born in Medzhibozh to me (and for some reason lived in Mezritch and Koretz before going to Boston – not Zvil but Koretz is near Zvil.

Of course Klezmer could say that doesn't matter and of course he’s still right and probably the document (like any other source of document he doesn't agree with) is a fake or unreliable because the US government was run by McCarthy anti-Commies who made up this big conspiracy lie about Medzhibozh to disinherit true Medzhibozh Russians like Bick and Rapaport so we should rely more on the omissions in Klezmer’s perfect Russian research than on any positive evidence we can find in other books or in US government documents.

Klezmer, why can’t you just finally admit that you’re wrong and there is plenty of sources and proof, none of it at all "controversial" or "contradictory" as you put it, and all you have in your research is what you can't find or what "isn't" not what is or would that mean that you-Chapin aren’t perfect which you can’t accept.

Hasn’t everybody had about enough of this baloney and wasting everybody’s time? I certainly have. If this is the way Wiki is supposed to run that I don’t want any part of it and Klezmer can just distort whatever he wants. --ChosidFrumBirth 20:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh come on ChosidFrumBirth, chill out. No need to be so nasty, personally attack me, or claim I'm someone I'm not. I was just attempting to establish the record of references in one place - that's all, nothing more. How many times do I have to say that I accept the evidence of this dynasty - what more do you want? You provided a great new piece of data, that Labor Dept record. I'd accept that he's from Mezhbizh too. It fills a missing link that I was hoping to find myself or that someone could point me toward. Good work! But it doesn't mean he was born in the Baal Shem Tov's house, and that's the thing I dispute. The point is to have everyone provide their documentation in one place. Thank you for doing so.--Klezmer 21:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

ChosidFrumBirth, perhaps you could post a copy of the US Dept of Labor document on this talk page.--Redaktor 05:37, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

My friend isn't keen on letting a copy from his collection out to the general public, and besides I don't know how to post it (unless you mean typing in all the information onto this page). --ChosidFrumBirth 13:50, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

He can scan it and email it to you; then you can upload it here.--Redaktor 17:53, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Redaktor – He doesn’t have a scanner and I don’t too, and he doesn’t let it be on a public website where anyone can copy it or see it, but depending on what Klezmer answers if this will be the last of it I’ll try to get a copy to fax or to scan and email to who wants to see it private. --ChosidFrumBirth 12:37, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

You really need to provide a better reference or a digital copy of the record. If it is a government record, it should be obtainable from the usual sources. Gosh, I got all excited about the possibility of finding such Mezhbizh dynasty records in US archives - I accepted your word for it. But all of a sudden, I hit the brick wall again. No such record can be found in the usual sources I search. This record doesn't exist in either www.familysearch.org or my favorite www.footnote.com. It is unusual, because all public-domain government archival records should be at one or the other. More interestingly, the Korf family did not apparently have citizenship or immigration records (which is not that unusual). But maybe I'm searching wrong. I tried several variations of "Korf" "Korff", etc. I even tried "Srul" (thousands of hits). I tried Mezhbizh spelled many different ways. Your mileage may vary, but I hate it when a reference that should be so obvious doesn't appear to exist. Help us out, please.--Klezmer 15:59, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Klezmer – Thank you, thank you – you just finally proved that all your original research and sources is unreliable and incomplete and doesn’t prove anything, because I saw this document with my own eyes and can show it.

Second, nobody “need to” prove anything to you. You’re not the judge and who are you to question or accuse anyone on whether something exists or is real just because you can’t find it or didn’t see it, when there is already plenty of published proof and sources and evidence backing up the oral history that you are wrong all along this whole time anyway and this is just one more proof.

I looked too in both these places you say, and you're right, it’s not there. And that proves that these records are not reliable and are obviously faulty and incomplete, and if that’s the case with US records, then what does that say about how reliable the old Russian records are that you use to try to contradict this dynasty. Just like we said all along, the fact that the names or records aren’t there or that you can’t find them doesn’t prove anything about what you say, and especially because there is other proof and sources that show they were there.

Brick wall? You’re the brick wall blocking the truth in this article and wasting everybody’s time, and why should anyone waste more time when all you do time after time is just ignore all logic and sources and proof that contradicts you and doesn’t agree with you.

BUT this final one last last time IF this will stop here with a US document that says “Srul Korf” born in “Medjubisz” and IF you will accept once and for all that the article should be that that there is such a Medzbhibozh dynasty, that it continues and didn't merge or disappear, that the last Rebbe in Medzbhibozh was R' Mordechai, the Medzbhibozh rebbe, succeeded by his son, etc., and that Apt and the non-Hasidic Bick/Rapaport who may be using the name of the city in some form are nevertheless not part of this particular hasidic dynasty from Baruch and have no place in this article and that settles it finally once and for all and you won’t revert anymore, then I will do whatever I have to do to get a copy and fax it or figure out a way to get it scanned and email it to you or Redaktor or anyone else to see it private.

Leaving aside the Baruch-Besht-Pinchas issue, it’s worth it to settle this part finally but only if this is really the end and you clearly accept upfront without any “outs” or nitpicking, but if you are just going to continue with more of your obstruction and garbage and finagling then why waste any more time – just make wiki your own biased opinion and ignore the truth which has become so clear already to anyone impartial. So, Klezmer, whadya say? Yes or no – and just yes or no please – simple as that we can end this. --ChosidFrumBirth 12:37, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

ChosidFrumBirth, do you have difficulty reading and understanding the English language? Are the following statements way above your head?:

• "I concluded that this "dynasty" didn't exist. I was wrong. ChosidFrumBirth finally produced verifiable sources"-Klezmer 18:18, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
• "Conclusions 1. There's documented evidence for the existence of this dynasty."-Klezmer 06:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
• "How many times do I have to say that I accept the evidence of this dynasty - what more do you want?" -Klezmer 21:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

This present issue with the US archival record of Srul Korf would be nice to have as independent evidence. It's a side issue. You provided four sources of WP:VER evidence already. The purpose of this discussion is merely to put all the sources in one place, that's all. The article is here to stay, don't you get it? Or is it that you still don't understand plain English? This article's documentation should be above threats or ransom demands.--Klezmer 22:30, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I understand English pretty well, but I also understand that you’ve been finagling about this for months so it needs to be very clear and settled without any room for misunderstanding so this is settled once and for all. This is the very first time you’ve said you accept the sources I provided (before this you said they were wrong or even falsified), but even now, you’re only saying the dynasty exists and ignoring the rest of the issue. Nobody is threatening anything or holding anything for ransom, I just don’t want to waste any more of my time if you’re just going to continue the way you have been all along, so I’d like to have it clear so everybody understands, and once the corrections are made in the article there is no more reverting, that not only does the dynasty exist (and thank you very much for accepting that and stating it clearly), but that also it didn't merge or disappear, that the last Rebbe in Medzbhibozh was R' Mordechai, the Medzbhibozh rebbe, succeeded by his son, etc., and that Apt and the non-Hasidic Bick/Rapaport who may be using the name of the city in some form are nevertheless not part of or connected with this particular hasidic dynasty and have no place in this article. I think everyone would really appreciate it if you could clear this up for us.

I'm glad we established the fact that you understand English. I've been absolutely consistent here. What part of this (posted a week ago) don't you understand?

Conclusions

1. There's documented evidence for the existence of this dynasty.
2. Various claims made by this dynasty are problematic. They left an invisible footprint on the town of Mezhbizh. Or perhaps they never really lived there, but claimed they did later. I don't understand how or why, but that's what the facts say. Therefore, I support keeping the article, but without reference to who lived or was born in the Baal Shem Tov's house. Also, I believe we should omit any mention of who was the last rabbi in the town. Both these items are contradicted by numerous sources.

Invisible only to you. The sources and documents say otherwise. And we're not talking about the last "RABBI" -- Redaktor made the correct point that the fact that R' Mordechai was the last "Rebbe" in town doesn't contradict a Bick being the last "Rov" -- but this article is about a hasidic dynasty, in other words Rebbes, and so that's what it should say. --ChosidFrumBirth 19:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

1. There's evidence that both the Rapaport-Bick rabbinic dynasty and the Apter dynasty makes claim to the same town name for their dynastic name as does the family of the Besht. This needs to be acknowledged by continuing to have links from this page to those other pages. Otherwise, there will be confusion. Besides, it adds to the quality of this page by acknowledging the others.--Klezmer 06:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

So what -- claiming the same town name doesn't mean they should be mentioned in this article unrelated to them when they're not claiming the same dynasty -- if they claim the same town name they should be mentioned in the town not in this dynasty. --ChosidFrumBirth 19:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Bottom line is this. You are rehashing old arguments that have long since been resolved. I don't have a problem with the article as it stands now. You need to re-read the current article. You will notice, there is no reference to the Baal Shem Tov's house, which is my only beef with previous versions. There is no mention about the dynasty merging. The succession chain is listed exactly as you describe above. I believe it still requires the link to the other rabbinic families, as I've noted. There are verifiable sources that claim the same name. I didn't make this stuff up, several disconnected families are using the name Mezhbizh. This absolutely needs to be acknowledged because it is Wiki fact WP:VER. But I think you will agree it is tastefully done and only serves to enhance the article. Your new document about Srul Korf helps fill the hole left by the other documentation to validate your 4 sources, but it doesn't specifically add any new information to the article. The purpose of this particular discussion thread is merely to post all the documentation in one place.--Klezmer 14:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree that you have to have references to what is unrelated to this dynasty just because of the name of the town -- it should be in the town only -- but I just don't care any more so have it your way. --ChosidFrumBirth 19:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, the headlines of these sections (messed up lineage big time, problems with this dynasty, and facts wrong about Baruch’s descendants in Medzbhibozh) are also very misleading in view of the results now, especially to anyone who won’t take the time to read through all the garbage, so these need to be corrected – I have tried a few different ways that would be acceptable to you, so please either suggest something yourself or stop reverting.

Stop messing with the historical record of a discussion thread. It is a Wiki no-no. See WP:DE, WP:CI, WP:DISCUSSION--Klezmer 14:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not messing with the historical record -- I am adding a notation at the top of these sections which makes it clear that the heading is yours only and is not the conclusion. Don't mess with the historical record. --ChosidFrumBirth 19:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Then the only last issue is the one about Boruch being a disciple of the Besht and not Pinchas. Thank you very much. Really. It will be wonderful to just move on. --ChosidFrumBirth 12:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Alleged "problems" raised by Klezmer have been resolved -- see discussion below. --ChosidFrumBirth 19:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conclusion

Klezmer claims that he has inserted the above "In the interest of preserving all the accumulated references found scattered in other pages" -- even though this has been rehashed over and over and over again -- the truth to anyone who has been following this and is that Klezmer has inserted the above repetition of his claims and arguments in order to push his own viewpoint once again that there is no Medzhibozh dynasty, that the article should be deleted, but if there is a Medzbhizbozh dynasty it is Apt (even though they're not called Medzhibozh, or Bick/Rapaport even though they weren't either Hasidic or a dynasty) and try to discredit anything else nobody what the sources or the proof. That's just pure garbage. Klezmer just won't stop. Why not note that the Baal Shem Tov's last name was actually Bick or Rapaport, or that Boruch never really existed, and just erase this whole dynasty because Klezmer and his questionable research doesn't approve. I've really had enough of this. --ChosidFrumBirth 14:02, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, ChosidFrumBirth may not want to acknowledge it, but we've come a long way in this discussion. At first people were claiming we should simply accept statements based only on Hasidic oral histories without verifiable evidence WP:Ver. (example from an earlier discussion: "Not all of Jewish history, particularly Hasidic history, has been reserached or recorded or even writen about.") Now people are providing evidence from various sources. It has been written down and recorded in many different forms. Some of it supports the claims, other sources are contradictory. That's what evidence is all about. No need to attack the messenger. The best counter is with the evidence. One can only go with the evidence at hand. Finally, in the later discussions it seems that others are now providing new independent evidence. This can only be healthy for the subject matter. Thanks to everyone for doing your research; that's all I asked for in the first place.--Klezmer 13:50, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, Klezmer, I might have accepted your altruistic motives a month ago, but after all your obstruction and refusal of mediation and rejection of everybody else's opinion over and over I just don't buy it -- it's not for you to disqualify the evidence of known accepted oral history or to insist on evidence that meets your personal standards, and finding additional evidence doesn't make it more true than it was before and doesn't make it not true if more evidence hadn't been found, and the fact that additional evidence has been found doesn't change that, or the fact that no matter what anybody said you accepted only your own sources, said that anything contradicting them must be either wrong or falsified (as you put it), and you still want only your version of the Medzibozh dynasty article.

There is of course still the issue of Boruch being a disciple of the Besht and not of Pinchas, but are you now saying that you are prepared to finally accept once and for all that there is such a Medzbhibozh dynasty, that it continues and didn't merge or disappear, that the last Rebbe in Medzbhibozh was R' Mordechai, the Medzbhibozh rebbe, succeeded by his son, etc., and that Apt and the non-Hasidic Bick/Rapaport who may be using the name of the city in some form are nevertheless not part of this particular hasidic dynasty and have no place in this article? --ChosidFrumBirth 13:47, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Zvhil-Mezhbizh of Boston

I have deleted the text

He is also one of three Zvhiller Rebbes who are cousins. The other two (who are not descended from Reb Mordechai or Reb Yaakov Yisroel
of Mezhbizh or directly related to the Mezhbizh dynasty) are descended from Reb Yechiel Michel's younger brother, Reb Shlomke of Zvhil, 
and are based in Jerusalem and in Union City, New Jersey.

which has no relevance to this article. This text belongs in the Zvhil (Hasidic dynasty) article.--Redaktor 22:36, 19 June 2007 (UTC)