Talk:Mexican-American War

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[edit] Requested move II

if yo momma like me then she flyy as a muhhhfukkka —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.11.5.115 (talk) 13:56, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Even though there is little evidence on this talk page of a serious attempt to apply the Wikipedia: Naming conflict guidelines, a vote was requested on the "Mexican-American War" vs. "Mexican War" naming conflict. Why? And, why was the vote apparently closed and archived after only five days?

  • When confronted with plausible alternate names, which should take precedence? "Article naming should prefer what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize . . . use the most common name" (Wikipedia: Naming conflict), and "[a]n article should generally be placed at the most common name used to refer to the event" (Wikipedia: WikiProject Military history).
  • So, what is the most asshole common name for this event? Following the Wikipedia: Naming conflict guidelines, more hits were
"Mexican War" be damned. Let's consider the Mexicans for once. They wouldn't call it the "Mexican War." We should care if "Mexican War" is American-centric (which it is) because Wikipedia is supposed to be a universal knowledge provider, not an American-centric or any other -centric provider. The article itself is already American-centric. Let's not drag the title down too. Griot 23:13, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
It was a war between Mexico and America. Ergo, it's the Mexican-American War. I have never heard it referred to as the Mexican War. Of course, I lived in Texas for a number of years where I was taught Texas history near-constantly, so my view on the whole thing might be a little skewed. But we still called it the Mexican-American War. As for the Korean and Vietnam Wars, those were primarily wars between two halves of the same country (North and South Korea and North and South Vietnam). America was a third party allied with one side or the other, not the primary opponent, so neither have America in the war name. That's different than the Mexican-American War, which was primarily between Mexico and America. Hope that makes sense. --clpo13(talk) 00:13, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, but Kraken's point is that historians are calling it the "Mexican War" much more often than anything else. Asking us to consider the Mexicans doesn't back up "Mexican-American War." Speakers of Spanish don't use "American" to mean people from the U.S.A. And this is the English Wikipedia, which is English-centric. Whatever the primary name is in English, that should be the name of the article. In the article, we say what the Spanish names are, we link to their article. They're often having a page-move edit war over there, we're not alone on that one.
All that said, I think Americans (look, there I go again) have a strong attachment to "Mexican-American War." That's what we were taught in school, even if it gets up the nose of everyone who thinks "America" refers to a continent, not a country. To end that, we could move the article to "Mexican War." Darkspots 00:43, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
All right, but is there really hard evidence Mexican War is more common than Mexican-American War? I mean, Google searches and titles in the article's reference list (nowhere near comprehensive) are hardly worthy of being called evidence. It seems to me that calling it the Mexican War is common among the historical community, but calling it the Mexican-American War is more common among the general populace, judging from how that name is taught more in school (at least, in my experience). --clpo13(talk) 01:04, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Why "consider the Mexicans"? Are there reliable published sources that aver Mexicans sought and took advice from U.S. historians, public, or government on any of the Spanish names for this conflict? If not, then to "consider the Mexicans" would be unnecessary and excessive.

Since "US centric" and "American-centric" are undefined terms, labeling the "Mexican War" as either or both makes no sense. Also, "which it is" does not qualify as a definition. And, Wikipedia as a "universal knowledge provider" would be more believable if English were a universal language.

It was a war between Britain and the United States; ergo, it's not the War of 1812 but the British-American War? The latter name might be more logical, but logic seems a secondary consideration in the way wars are named. Also, the etymology of the names for the Korean and Vietnam Wars seems speculative and irrelevant to the question at hand: What is the most common name for this particular conflict?

What would "really hard evidence" consist of? If Google searches are "hardly worthy of being called evidence," then suggest better evidence iuiuiuiand explain why it is better. If the article's reference list is "nowhere near comprehensive," isn't it odd for an article with "Mexican-American War" as its title to have more sources with "Mexican War" in their titles than "Mexican-American War"? If that's too speculative, then identify more books and articles that call this conflict the "Mexican-American War." Further, per the Wikipedia: Naming conflict guidelines, the fourth bullet of 23 July lists reference works, recently published books, and government websites that have been consulted. These concur that the Mexican War is the most common name.

What is the evidence "Americans have a strong attachment to the 'Mexican-American War'" or that it "is more common among the general populace"? Kraken7 00:36, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I have to say that Mexican-American War is a clearer title from a non-North American standpoint and would likely be what I would look for, and certainly the only name I've heard applied to the war. Narson 06:58, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The term "Mexican-American" war is used in all history books. Let's stick with common conventions, please. Griot 16:14, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Which Wikipedia policy or guideline states that article names that are clearer "from a non-North American standpoint" are preferred? If there is no such policy or guideline, then why should this article's name continue to be the "Mexican-American War" when the Wikipedia: Naming conflict guideline states the most common name should be used to name an article and the evidence marshaled above (see 23 July) suggests that name is the "Mexican War"?
If the "term 'Mexican-American' war is used in all history books," then why do 10 books in the "References" section (as of 9/17/07) have "Mexican War" in their titles? Also, what is meant by "common conventions"? Are these consistent with the Wikipedia: Naming conflict guideline? If not, why should anyone "stick with" them? If they are consistent with said guideline, then why do they countenance the "Mexican-American War" as this article's title when the evidence suggests the most common name is the "Mexican War"? Kraken7 22:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

"Mexican War" is the older term, while "Mexican-American War" has been used more in recent decades. --JWB 09:08, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Interesting theory, but where's the evidence? Kraken7 13:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Kraken7, just drop it already. Your posts reek to high heaven of POV, and besides, Mexican-American war is the more specific name, its been pointed out elsewhere that if the article was called simply "The Mexican war", people would have trouble working out which war the title was refering to; there have been many wars involving Mexico Fennessy 18:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I love how everyone who wants to change history comes on here and declares themselves Caesar and changes the article to what they want it to be. The title has been Mexican war since the war was fought, it was only changed recently by the clintons and their revisionist, "America sucks" attitude. Sorry Caesar, but the you don't get to just rule by decree here and change the name of the war to the more bland, political cowardice title "mexican-American". Why don't you go and decree that the Hundred Years War get a new name? The French and Indian War? I think the War Between the States needs a new name too, why don't you go brainstorm your next edict? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.198.94.194 (talk) 20:44, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

This isn't at all about who is correct. We don't decide what's true here. What this is about is a user who shields herself/himself with the anonymity of multiple IPs, demonstrates an agenda-driven editing history, and calls people who disagree with her or him names like vandal and coward and suggests those who disagree possess an "America sucks" attitude. Wikipedia doesn't make any pretense about absolute truths; the pedia is more about having a central commons where truthful references and reasonable argument can help us get ever closer to the truth. You need to make a much stronger argument to win consensus around here. BusterD 20:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Uh, the last sentence should be the clue that someone is pulling your leg... --JWB 20:59, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
And she or he is back again under 211.178.81.118. BusterD 21:25, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
And again under 71.166.49.7 BusterD 22:01, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Historically, I have seen MANY references to simply, "The Mexican War" specifically by Shelby Foote when he makes note of specific individuals fighting in the Civil War who served together, had experience together, etc. during the war. When discussing Civil War military figures, references to service in the Mexican War naturally refer to this conflict by context and most likely will continue to do so. Nevertheless, I can't see the ultimate point of this debate. Assuming arguendo that another conflict (God forbid) happened to erupt between the US and Mexico; how long do you think that it would take before this war became known as the First Mexican-American War and the newer conflict being referred to as the Second Mexican-American War? World War I was not World War I until we fought World War II. Since context is everything, I think most would agree that if an American is speaking to an American that a reference to the 'Civil War' refers to the 'U.S. Civil War' and that a reference to the 'Mexican War' would refer to the Mexican-American War. However, consider if a Canadian is speaking to a friend in say, France, and makes reference to 'The Mexican War' - until further information came forth, the listener would suffer through the ambiguity of trying to decide which war he was refering to, the Mexican-American War, or what wiki refers to as 'The French intervention in Mexico (which by the way is the biggest understatement I have ever seen) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.197.15.253 (talk) 03:34, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Another factor also was that the United States did not recognize international treaties. This War is very little studied in the United States, and there are monuments no raised in honor to the fallen ones in her in that country. The historian David Pletcher thinks: “It was a war of aggression in which we attacked a neighbor and, independently of everything what we have gained thanks to that war, we he does not like to watch the way in that we gained it”.

Also it is incredible, that in North American films it is spoken of which I exercise of santa anna was the invader, and that is lie santa anna went to Texas to reestablezer the order, not to invade Texas, those were our territories that I exercise of the United States invaded illegally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.56.144.3 (talk) 06:54, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The Anglos in Texas are actually Mexican citizens. Santa Anna abrogates the 1824 Mexican constitution and actually MANY Mexicans, including the Texans are upset about this. Please see Republic of the Rio Grande, et al. At the end of the day you simply cannot reconcile Santa Anna's military actions in Texas and Mexico's subsequent failure to ratify the Treaty of Velasco on the basis that Santa Anna was acting beyond the scope of his authority. The second that you shroud Santa Anna's actions with legitimacy, the more you legitimize the Treaty of Velasco.

[edit] Declaration of war

Why is the Mexican declaration of war on April 23, 1846 nowhere to be found? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.250.136.199 (talk) 00:57, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] NPOV

This article seems to have benefitted somewhat from NPOV editing, but it still needs lots of work. For some reason, some people seem to love introducing POV, anti-American propaganda into articles about Mexican/US relations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DougRWms (talk • contribs) 07:03, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm just one editor, and I don't normally get involved with this page though it is on my watch list, but I can't agree with the unsigned comment left above by User:DougRWms. It appears to this editor that user has newly come onto this page, called this page POV with little supporting discussion, then edit warred with long-established page editors, mostly about subjects already covered in previous talk, crying vandalism in virtually every edit summary. IMHO, the article reflected less POV before user started making edits than where the page stands now. Further, I'm concerned that user has been systematically applying this pro-US view on many of the page spaces user has edited recently, while decrying as POV those who are actually trying to avoid biasing the article. Besides User:DougRWms, whose opinions are becoming known in talk and edit summary, I'm wondering how other editors see this. BusterD 23:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

BusterD, I agree with you. The thing is with DougRWms is that he claims to want a more NPOV revision of the artcle in question, but then in his edits he omits large chunks of factually accurate & fully referenced material. I dont claim to be an author and I couldnt care less about tweaking the language used, but by selectivly deleting facts what he's doing is projecting his own POV.
I dont want to make judgements about people, but I get the feeling he's the type of person that considers Fox news to be "fair & balanced".
But hey like I told him before, I'm willing to cut him some slack seeing as he's new to wikipedia as long as aggressive editing techniques & insulting edit summaries stop. Fennessy 21:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that Mexico isn't claiming the Nueces to be the border between the U.S. and Mexico, they're claiming the Nueces to be the border between two departments of the Mexican state of Coahuila y Tejas. By failing to ratify Velasco, Texas and Mexico are still at war and continue to act as if they're still at war. I refer you to: Second Mexican-Texas War, Hill Junior College Monograph, Texian Press, Waco, TX, 1972

March 1840 -- about 140 Texans led by Colonel Jordan are sent to assist General Canales of the Republic of the Rio Grande (consisting of the states of Coahuila, Nuevo Leon and Tamaulipas) It is interesting to note that the Republic of the Rio Grande's Constitutional Convention was held in Laredo, north of the Rio Grande, before moving to Guerrero, Tamaulipas and ultimately to Victoria, TX (which is well north of the Nueces acting as a 'government in exile' for lack of a better term)

June 1841 -- The Texan Santa Fe Expedition set out for New Mexico. Near Sante Fe, they were intercepted by Mexican forces and marched 2000 miles to prison in Mexico City. {Sante Fe is east of the Rio Grande}

5 March 1842 --A Mexican force of over 500 men under Rafael Vasquez invaded Texas for the first time since the revolution. They briefly occupied San Antonio, but soon headed back to the Rio Grande. {San Antonio is north of the Nueces}

11 September 1842 -- San Antonio was again captured, this time by 1400 Mexican troops under Adrian Woll. Again the Mexicans retreated, but this time with prisoners.

Fall 1842 -- Sam Houston authorized Alexander Somervell to lead a retaliatory raid into Mexico. The resulting Somervell Expedition dissolved, however, after briefly taking the border towns of Laredo and Guerreo. {Laredo is north of the Rio Grande and actually votes to remain a part of Mexico after the Mexican-American War, after which the residents, quite literally, move south of the river and found Nuevo Laredo}

20 December 1842 -- Some 300 members of the Somervell force set out to continue raids into Mexico. Ten days and 20 miles later, the ill-fated Mier Expedition surrendered at the Mexican town of Mier. (Mier is in Nuevo Leon on the south side of the Rio Grande, essentially downstream from Laredo)

25 March 1843 -- Seventeen Texans were executed in what became known as the Black Bean Episode, which resulted from the Mier Expedition, one of several raids by the Texans into Mexico.

27 May 1843 -- The Texan's Snively Expedition reached the Santa Fe Trail, expecting to capture Mexican wagons crossing territory claimed by Texas. The campaign stalled, however, when American troops intervened. {Why are American troops there at all in 1843, two years prior to the annexation of Texas?} —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.197.15.253 (talk) 04:21, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] area of dispute

the disputed territory of 150 miles between two rivers seems to have been rather large. Does anyone know how many sq miles, sq km or whatever was the area involved here. It would helpful to add this to the article. Hmains 20:41, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


When discussing the Treaty of Velasco it is a falsehood to claim that Mexico 'did not reopen the war' - the more accurate depiction was that the struggle continued on low boil until Texas' annexation by the U.S. when the dispute grew into a full-blown war. Both Mexican and Texas militia instigated border raids against the other.

The problem with this article is that it doesn't recognize that ultimately it is one large struggle which essentially begins as an internal Mexican Civil War and morphs into an international struggle. Technically, by not ratifying the Treaty of Velasco, and by continuing to mount raids into Texas' territory (above the Nueces by the way), that Mexico had no intention of reocognizing Texan independence and that Mexico would deal with the breakaway province after it squashed internal opposition in places like the Republic of the Rio Grande, et al. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.197.15.253 (talk) 02:57, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The section re:Combatants

I think this article has some merit but displays many flaws. That which I regard as most notable is in the section titled "Combatants". I feel it overlooks one of the most remarkable aspects of the war-the outstanding quality of the U.S Army and it's officers. They clearly outperformed their adversaries. I don't believe this section should rate over a "C" Earthhawk 01:27, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Hear Hear. The US Army Regulars were outstanding. Mexicans stated that they were a tougher adversary than any others. (P1340) 16 March 08

In regards the San Patricios: While religion may have played a part in some of the desertions, it needs to be pointed out that many of the Irish were not gallant soldiers troubled with pangs of religious and conscience concerns but trouble makers in the U.S. Army who had escaped from guard houses where they had been confined for various offenses before they found the need to desert. The real draw was the freedom from prosecution not persecution, money, land, rank and senoritas or all of them. Their leader, John Riley, was a soldier of fortune who had deserted the British Army as well.

The ferocity of some their fighting had more to do with not wanting to be recaptured and face charges than valor and bravery. During the fighting at Churubusco the Patricios stopped three attempts by Mexicans to raise the white flag and purportedly even shot one who tried to do so--a desparate act.

I think about half could be considered "Irish", including the American ones. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.126.5.53 (talk) 12:57, 16 March 2008 (P1340) 16 March 08

[edit] "more" commonly

Kraken7 appears to insist on including the word "more" in the note In the United States, the conflict is more commonly known as the Mexican War.[1]. I do not see that there is any clear evidence for Wikipedia to make such an assertion. The supposed evidence on the talk page here is at best original research put forward to support a POV in regards to the name of the article. While it is indisputable that the conflict is commonly known as the "Mexican War" in the U.S., IMO, without a reliable source to for the assertion that it is "more" commonly known by that name, such an assertion does not belong in the article. Other opinions? older ≠ wiser 15:02, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

It seems that as far as Wikipedia is concerned, accusations of POV or original research (or both) are ipso facto credible because rarely are such accusations supported by evidence, let alone coherent argument. This is no way to run a railroad. As for the "supposed evidence," it was assembled by working through the elaborate procedures found in the Wikipedia: Naming conflict guidelines. Are these guidelines obsolete? If so, explain how and when they became obsolete. Were steps in the guidelines omitted or done badly? If so, then show how and where mistakes were made. On an related topic, what "reliable source" states the 1846-1848 war between the United States and Mexico is more commonly known as the "Mexican-American War"? Kraken7 17:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're referring to. Precisely what "elaborate procedures" on Wikipedia:Naming conflict lead you to conclude that there is a basis for including in the article an unsourced factual assertion that one name is "more" commonly used than another within the U.S.? older ≠ wiser 17:48, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Don't be sorry, just read: Wikipedia: Naming conflict: Other considerations: Identification of common names using external references. Kraken7 00:29, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Uh-huh, and I still don't see how anything there justifies making a questionable factual assertion in the article without a supporting reference from a reliable source. older ≠ wiser 01:26, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
How is it a "questionable factual assertion" to state that this conflict is more commonly known as the "Mexican War" when evidence per Wikipedia guidelines shows that it is? And what justifies calling this war "Mexican-American"? Where is the reliable published source for that name as the most common usage? Kraken7 22:57, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

A better idea would be using the name used in spanish: "Invasión americana" even when is a very ambigous name (sounds like the 60's british invasion). Peopole in Mexico find it hard to refer to U.S. citizens as they should be called: "Estadunidenses" and call them "americans", but in Mexico that war is recorded as an invasion because Mexico did´nt start the war, but in order to defend the war was declared and the U. S. after assur Texas independence continued the war. The articule should have not only american oposition to the war but mexican point of view either. Korssar 00:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Google Scholar hits

[edit] All years

"Mexican War" 6880 (Also includes hits for "US-Mexican War" and "American-Mexican War". 6336 without hits for "US-Mexican War" and "American-Mexican War".)

"US-Mexican War" 519

"American-Mexican War" 25

"Mexican-American War" 2050

"US-Mexico War" 196

"Mexican-US War" 75

"American invasion of Mexico": 16

"Mexico-US War": 4

Total for 7 terms mentioning both countries: 2885

Ratio: .45

[edit] 1950 and before

"Mexican War": 967-4 = 963

"Mexican-American War": 5

"US-Mexican War": 4

Ratio: .01

[edit] 2002 and later

"Mexican War": 1830-265-5 = 1560

7 terms mentioning both countries: 265+5+864+114+4+2+3 = 1257

Ratio: .80

[edit] 2005 and later

"Mexican War": 730-114-1 = 615

7 terms mentioning both countries: 410+114+1+2+2+2 = 531

Ratio: .86

--JWB 08:14, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

This shows that Mexican War really is the more common name of the conflict, so therefore by the Wikipedia naming guidelines it should be titled "Mexican War" in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Uguion (talk • contribs) 17:16, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Must say thats again the "american" point of view, mexican people and scholars think other way.Korssar 00:12, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

My two cents is that the numbers on current usage seem to be pretty closely matched, and that the article text should use both Mexican War and at least one of the newer terms that try to acknowledge both countries. Of course the article title itself (as opposed to redirects) can only have one choice, and I think people should try to chill out about hardcoded title vs. redirect title. --JWB 03:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

What exactly does "mexican people and scholars think other way" mean? And, what relevance does whatever "mexican people and scholars" might think have to the issue at hand: which is the more common name in English for this war? It is unclear whether Wikipedia was excluded from the above Google Scholar hits, so the methodology may not be sound. Further, it is unclear why the years between 1951 and 2001 have been excluded from the more detailed findings. However, setting aside those two problems for the moment, the idea that the name preferences are "pretty closely matched" is true only for the last 34 months (a very narrow timespan considering the war ended 159 years ago) and only by comparing the total hits for all seven terms mentioning both countries to those hits for just "Mexican War." In other words, even since 2005 "Mexican War" has been preferred 16% more often than all seven other terms combined. Kraken7 01:02, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I ran those three queries, which is what I had time for at the time. By clicking the links and then changing the dates, anyone can query for another date range; please feel free to post additional results. Also, I covered the terms of reference that I could think of at the time - it's possible there are still other ways of referring to the war that might have significant usage.
I don't think Google Scholar indexes Wikipedia at all since it covers published articles.
Usage of many ethnically charged terms has changed in recent decades - African American did not come into wide use until the 1990s, and I have not seen any claims that is the most common term in a survey of English-language articles; yet it is now the preferred term and the primary article name.
Appropriate usage may also be different by context; an article about 19th century discussion of the war would probably use the term "Mexican War" used at the time, while a recent textbook would be more likely to use "Mexican-American War" (which would explain the editor above who had only heard of the latter term).
Right now "Mexican War" appears to have a majority in Google's current sample of scholarly literature, but this could change with additional sampling, further changes in usage in future years, etc.; also, it is possible that Wikipedia policy will adopt criteria besides simple majority of references, as Wikipedia:Naming conventions (identity) now does for names of ethnic groups etc.
Regardless of what the primary article name is at any given time, I think supporters of each name should keep in mind that the other name also has widespread and legitimate usage and may be more appropriate in certain contexts. --JWB 03:04, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Tell that to BusterD and BKonrad who come and stamp the article with their iron fists to keep it their way no matter what the consensus is, and then sign their talking with mocking statements like older is not wiser. This is not a person with sensitivities we are talking about here like with your example of a black person, this is the title of an inanimate object, a war, that has been in use for the past 160 years and has only been recently changed by the PC crowd. Should we go back in time and rename the Revolution the "British-American War?" --Rexus Graco 10:23, 20 October 2007

Also by the logic of the people above, who think we should go back in history and rename events to be more PC crowd friendly to worry about the "mexicans' point of view", should we then not go and rename the articles about the Civil War and call it the "War of Northern Agression" or the "War Between the States", to make sure we don't offend the Southerners' POV? The war is called "The Civil War" because that is its most common name, not the name the PC crowd wishes was most common. --Rexus Graco 10:23, 20 October 2007

Your overuse of the term "PC crowd" shows your own bias. Quite frankly, this whole discussion is lame. Considering both "Mexican-American War" and "Mexican War" are commonly used, the article should be left as is, including the note that there are alternate names. That way, we can avoid the petty arguing over which name is "right." If we're going down that road, we might as well consider "The United States Invasion" as a possible title. I expect it's been in use as long as "Mexican War" has. --clpo13(talk) 06:35, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

French and Indian War is another name that has caused confusion, and the article on it has a section French and Indian War#Naming the war discussing the various names for it, their history, and pros and cons. This article could use something similar.

War of 1812 has a note explaining it was known as the American War of 1812 in Britain. This article should also document what the Mexican War was and is called in English outside the US. --JWB 09:30, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a footnote after the first instance of the name in the article explaining that there are alternative names, but it's only a small mention. A full section on the different names would be a good idea. --clpo13(talk) 20:29, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
It's also possible the subject is worthy of its own pagespace. BusterD 20:46, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm european, no ties to mexico or us, and i'm sorry but calling the page "Mexican War" is really silly. Which mexican war? Or was mexico only involved in one war in all its history? lol. If this is supposed to be an Usapedia, mexican war is appropriate, if its supposed to be an english language encyclopedia for all people who understand the language, then clearly not. Ask any non-american non-mexican. Mexican-american war is much more adequate for neutrals, and since americans use it often too, it is the obvious choice. 84.90.16.244 (talk) 20:39, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page protected

Please stop edit warring. When this page's protection drops, I will be watching — I don't want to go rouge, but I'll fix a 1RR on this page if this keeps up. Oh, and the socking is really, really lame. --Haemo 05:40, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Eh, this is pointless — it's just a bunch of sockpuppets edit warring. --Haemo 05:59, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The real subject is sockpuppets, not page naming

Until now I've avoided discussing the merits of this issue, focusing instead on protecting Wikipedia from the methodical use of sockpuppets to move this issue into this sort of prominence. I contend that the use of sockpuppets has given this subject a weight beyond its due. This continued discussion and warring is a result of as yet unmoderated sockpuppetry.

Wikipedia consensus utilizes the term American Civil War, mostly to differentiate between the civil war occurring on the North American continent and those occurring in other places. I'll wager the term Philippine-American War was not the common term during the conflict, but has become the defacto standard terminology for that phase of the insurgency. Wikipedia uses American Revolutionary War, but as an U.S. student on the west coast and in the midwest I was always taught "Revolutionary War". popoie hits can't be taken too seriously when considering naming this conflict; IMHO, ethnocentrism is responsible for the bias toward the usage of "Mexican War" (virtually all who wrote about the conflict in the English language were from the U.S.). IMHO, the standard for article naming on an encyclopedia should be encyclopedias. Britannica for example, lists "American Revolutionary War", "American Civil War", "Philippine-American War", and "Mexican-American War", just as en.wikipedia does. Conservapedia? Ditto. Citizendium? The same. I don't have access from this terminal to World Book, Compton's, and Encarta, but I believe that all three of those respected online sources use the same "Mexican-American War". But I think all this is just chatter, and isn't important to Wikipedia in the slightest.

I'm far more concerned that frustrated by his or her failure to move this discussion in the desired direction, one user has spent three months hiding behind sockpuppets, open proxies, and Tor accounts, all in violation of Wikipedia policies. In the last three months several brand new accounts immediately start using edit summaries mocking existing page editors and demonstrate knowledge of page history no new user could reasonably expected to possess; those accounts will be dealt with by process. BusterD 13:53, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Which names are sock puppets? --JWB 20:02, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to say all of them, but really I have no proof of that -- user:Rexus Graco, user:Uguion, user:Oyster82 and user:Filmman1, the four latest, are obvious, provable socks, however -- check their user creation logs. There may be other socks, however, and probably are. I eventually need to get around to making a sock report. Or someone does. Gscshoyru 20:07, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Such a report was filed on October 5. A checkuser as well. Another obvious and closed case is possibly related. Until now I've avoided mentioning these cases on this talkspace because it's possible I've named the wrong user; the entire point of sockpuppetry is to mislead about the identity of the puppetmaster. I would appreciate it if everyone stays as cool as can be reasonably expected until the case is closed and the vandal(s) addressed. BusterD 20:20, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
The real issue here is not sockpuppetry, but rather what is the most common name in English for the war fought between the United States and Mexico from 1846 until 1848. Following the Wikipedia: Naming conflict guidelines, a good deal of evidence has been shown above from four kinds of Google searches, hits from government websites, reference works (including encyclopedias), and recently published books that suggests the most common name is the Mexican War (see 24 July). To date, none of this evidence has been challenged on substantive grounds. The Wikipedia guidelines already suggest polling encyclopedias, among several other methods for ascertaining the most common name, but it is unclear why that method should be "the standard" for article naming. Also, if four on-line encyclopedias "use the same 'Mexican-American War,'" it should be noted that five hardcopy encyclopedias (Encyclopedia Americana: International Edition; Collier's Encyclopedia; the New Encyclopaedia Britannica-Micropedia, 15th ed.; the Cambridge Encyclopedia, 4rth ed.; and the Columbia Encyclopedia, 6th edition) use the term "Mexican War." Kraken7 01:10, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
It would appear, then, that both names are equally common, in which case the article should be left as is. I don't even see why it matters. The other names are mentioned. What's the big deal? There is no "right" name for a war. Every side in a conflict has its own unique name for it. Going with what's "common" denies that the other names are just as valid. --clpo13(talk) 02:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
It is curious how more and better evidence that "Mexican-American War" is not the common name elicits a plea that the article title "should be left as is." Also, if it is not clear "why it matters" and if it is no "big deal," then why not use "Mexican War"? And if, contrary to Wikipedia: Naming conflict guidelines, Wikipedia: Naming conventions (events), and Wikipedia: Wikiproject Military History, there is "no 'right' name for a war," then why not use "Mexican War" instead? Further, if "other names are just as valid," then why insist on using "Mexican-American War"? Kraken7 23:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Mexican War would mean nothing to me, whereas Mexican-American War at least tells me who took part in it. This is the global English-language Wikipedia. Where we have a choice between a confusing title (a war involving Mexicans) and a meaningful one (a war between Mexicans and Americans), we should pick the meaningful one. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:53, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
It is my understanding that, on Wikipedia, if there is no suitable reason to change an article, it should be left as is. That's how it goes for British vs. American spellings, so why should it be different for names? And please, use your own words instead of quoting mine. It makes you look incapable of forming original arguments. Besides, your last question could be easily used against you. Why insist on using "Mexican War"? And as Angus said, Mexican War is vague. Mexico has been involved in its fair share of wars. In case you complain about other wars, know that Korea and Vietnam were primarily wars between two factions in the same country, thus the names "Korean War" and "Vietnam War". This wasn't a war between two parts of Mexico. It was a war between Mexico and the United States. The name resulting from this should accurately reflect that. Simply put, "Mexican War" doesn't. --clpo13(talk) 02:28, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Unlike those who've "avoided discussing the merits of this issue," two editors are not afraid to enter the arena. Bravo! Now, to the second entry on 26 October: If "Mexican War would mean nothing," there is a solution: Read history. A good place to start would be Smith's War with Mexico, it's dated and hard to find but unmatched for comprehensiveness. By they way, which Wikipedia policy or guideline states that "a meaningful choice" for an article title should be preferred over a "confusing" one?
As to the 27 October entry, if "suitable" means good and sufficient reasons, then there is agreement on that point. It is also agreed that to make changes to a Wikipedia article solely for the sake of imposing British or American orthography is not suitable. However, the issue here is not quite so trivial: Whether the title for this article should follow Wikipedia guidelines (see first entry on 26 October). "Why insist on using 'Mexican War'?" Three reasons: 1) Wikipedia guidelines state the common name for an event should be used as the article title, 2) in this case, Mexican War is that common name, and 3) evidence has been shown above that corroborates Mexican War as the common name. As for vagueness, while it is true Mexican War is vague, so is almost every other war's name (e.g., the Boer War, the War of the Pacific, the Bishops' War, etc.) and, if Wikipedia guidelines are being followed, vagueness is irrelevant. Likewise, the claim that the Korean and Vietnam wars were named as such because they "were primarily wars between two factions in the same country" is also irrelevant as far as the Wikipedia guidelines are concerned. By the way, which Wikipedia policy or guideline states that an article title for a war should "accurately reflect" anything beside the common name? Kraken7 00:26, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I see one user and a bunch of sockpuppets arguing one side of this discussion, and several established editors and administrators arguing the other side. Time for a straw poll? BusterD 00:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I should also remind user that "Until now..." I'd "...avoided discussing..." this case on the merits specifically because "...the use of sockpuppets has given this subject a weight beyond its due." BusterD 01:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
If I read history - say Edwin Williamson's Penguin History of Latin America because that's to hand - it doesn't mention any "Mexican War". Perhaps you mean "read Amerocentric history", but this is still a global encyclopedia. If it's guidelines and alphabet soup you want, then along with WP:NC (CN) you might like to consider WP:NC(P) and WP:NCON. Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
But doesn't that beg the question of what is the appropriate "weight" of this subject? Kraken7 15:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Sigh... john k 17:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm still saying the name doesn't matter, and thus the article should just be left to its own devices. This especially since the "common name" argument doesn't work. Common where? According to whom? I mean, "Mexican-American War" is common enough for it to be the only one I'd ever heard until I came across this discussion a few months back. And if you were to go to Mexico, I doubt you'd hear "Mexican War" or "Mexican-American War" very much anywhere. --clpo13(talk) 01:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
In Mexico they call it the North American Intervention. But that name is irrelevant because it is only used in Spanish. john k 22:57, 30 October 2007 (UTC
Another straw poll? Already? Is evidence for the "Mexican-American War" as the common name so thin that vox populi must be invoked? And, who is this dim-bulb "user" who needs reminding?
It is regrettable that so handy a tome as the Penguin History of Latin America omits any mention of the Mexican War. Perhaps, this unfortunate omission can be brought to the attention of the publisher or author so it can be ctpopopoo
What is Amerocentric history? How is it related to the subject at hand? And, if WP:NC(P) or WP:NCON or both are relevant to this discussion, explain how. Kraken7 22:52, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Straw polls don't decide anything. They gauge what consensus is in a very loose manner. A straw poll would be useful, then, for determining sides in this debate. As it stands, you (Kraken) seem to be the only (legit) user arguing for the name "Mexican War". If there are more people in favor of that name, a straw poll would point them out and encourage discussion. It's not a matter of evidence. Not yet, at least. --clpo13(talk) 00:49, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

You have really got to ask yourself why these users are pushing for it so much. It really makes no difference other than the fact that the title Mexican-American war;
a) Is specific.
b) Doesn't sound archaic.
c) Doesn't sound derogatory.
Can't you guys actually contribute to wikipedia instead of having misguided POV temper tantrums on talk pages? Fennessy 17:54, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

How does Mexican War "sound archaic"? How does it "sound derogatory"? Or perhaps more to the point, how does the addition of a hyphen and "American" turn the article's title into something that doesn't "sound" either archaic or derogatory or both? Kraken7 18:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
This isn't necessarily my opinion, but I can see how "Mexican War" makes the conflict sound one-sided, as if the Mexicans were the aggressors. --clpo13(talk) 19:19, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Kraken7, you really need to look over WP:NPOV, specifically:
Bias Ethnic or racial: racism, nationalism, regionalism and tribalism;
Geographical: describing a dispute as it is conducted in one country, when the dispute is framed differently elsewhere;
Nationalistic: favoring or opposing the interests or views of a particular nation;

Article naming Sometimes the article title itself may be a source of contention and polarization. This is especially true for titles that suggest a viewpoint either "for" or "against" any given issue. A neutral article title is very important because it ensures that the article topic is placed in the proper context.

Wikipedia is supposed to have a universal perspective, not an american one. Fennessy 19:49, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

How does "Mexican War" make "the conflict sound as if the Mexicans were the aggressors"? As for WP:NPOV, looked it over. Now what? Kraken7 01:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Bad example (I didn't think it out too much, since it was just a possibility). But the name "Mexican War" still only mentions one of the combatants, and downplays the role of the other side. It's ambiguous (for a good example, think of a conflict called the "American War"...that could mean one of many, many wars), which is not the best thing for a title that's supposed to be representative of the entire world. Others can continue to argue the NPOV argument, but I'm going to go with the ambiguity argument now. --clpo13(talk) 05:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
It's not just one or the other(NPOV or ambiguious), I think it's both. These users that want to use the title "The Mexican war" certainly wouldn't be wasting so much time on arguing over it if they didn't have some kind of deeply held convictions about it. The WP:NPOV article clearly explains why an article should have a clear tile, see this page as well: Wikipedia:Naming conflict. And speaking for myself here, if someone just said "The Mexican war", I'd (still) think they were refering to the Mexican civil war. Fennessy 23:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Ambiguity is not the issue, rather it is whether Wikipedia policy to use the common name for the event in English as the article title on the English-language Wikipedia is going to be followed. Further, instead of theorizing about the motives that those who want to change the status quo might or might not have, how about doing something productive like showing evidence that "Mexican-American War" is the common name? Also, for those who would confuse the Mexican War with the Mexican Revolution the solution remains the same: Read history. Kraken7 02:34, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
You mean read (American) history. No thanks. And it's pretty clear what the intentions of the people who want to try & change the article name are; someone for it dropped the term "liberal" once already on this talk page in opposition to the title "The Mexican-American war". Fennessy 21:23, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Not reading American history will make it difficult if not impossible to make meaningful (not to mention NPOV) contributions to this article, but so be it. And ad hominem arguments are unlikely to show that "Mexican-American War" is the common name for this conflict. Kraken7 01:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
It's unfortunate that you cannot muster any support for your position, other than the numerous sockpuppets which frequent this page. BusterD 02:51, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Even if it is Wikipedia policy to use the most common name, that still doesn't answer the question "Common according to whom?" Even among English-speaking countries, it's not necessarily common to refer to the war as the "Mexican War". In the United States, it makes sense to call it by that name, since we've only fought one war with Mexico. However, when you look at the issue from an international standpoint, referring to both combatants in the article name is the better option, since "Mexican War" is vague. Which Mexican war? Mexico has fought its fair share of wars. It'd be like labeling any war the United States has fought in the "United States War".
Besides, didn't you know that Wikipedia has no rules? Policy is there to guide discussion. It's not ironclad. If consensus calls for a non-common name, that's the name that sticks. --clpo13(talk) 10:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, lacking any apparent support is unfortunate, although it may not be a permanent condition because consensus can change. On a different topic, using the common name as the title for an event is not a policy, but rather a guideline (Wikipedia: Naming conventions (events)). That is, common according to "most English speakers." By that standard and using the tests recommended in the Wikipedia: Naming conflict guidelines, the evidence (see 24 July) suggests the common name is the Mexican War. What evidence is there that other English-speaking countries have a different name and what difference does it make? Does an "international standpoint" mean non-English speaking countries? If so, how is whatever they might call the Mexican War relevant to an article in the English-language Wikipedia? As to vagueness, Korean War is just as vague and the Koreans too have fought their fair share of wars, so vagueness hardly seems disqualifying. And, if Wikipedia has no rules (cite reference?), then why not use Mexican War? Also, a consensus that would use a non-common name for an article's title would be a prescription for confusion. Kraken7 02:23, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Policy, guideline, whatever. None are concrete, aside from the five pillars. I'm surprised, considering your apparent knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines, that you have not heard of the most important one: if a rule prevents you from improving Wikipedia, ignore it. Of course, this doesn't mean that anything goes, but it does mean that you can't cite Wikipedia policy to game the system when consensus is against you. Doesn't matter if the consensus leads to confusion. Consensus trumps nearly everything on Wikipedia. If you disagree, file an RfC. That's what they're for.
And as for your "why not" question, my answer is this: why bother changing the name at all? Questions like that don't solve anything. Either get consensus on your side (through an RfC, a straw poll, or whatever), or stop pestering everyone about the name. --clpo13(talk) 07:01, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
How exactly does ignoring the Wikipedia guideline on naming articles improve Wikipedia? How exactly is the system being gamed? Consensus is nice, but using it to shut down debate would be pushing consensus into groupthink territory, no? And, "why bother changing the name at all?" Because the evidence suggests the current article title is not the common name. Granted, it's a small point hardly worth arguing over, except maybe to those who care about little things like accuracy. So, instead of demanding not to be pestered, why not engage? That is, show evidence and present reasons for believing "Mexican-American War" is the common name. Kraken7 (talk) 17:35, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
No one is ignoring a guideline (at least no more than any guideline is only a guideline to be applied with judicious WP:COMMONSENSE) -- you are indulging in selective interpretation to support your POV. It has already been documented many times previously that "Mexican-American War" IS in common use. You've presented no conclusive evidence that "Mexican War" is so overwhelmingly more common as to make it the de facto title. older ≠ wiser 18:03, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
This is English Wikipedia, you are ignoring that point. Even Mexican sources accepted that name applied by English-language authors. Brandon-Q

(talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brendon-Q (talk • contribs) 22:32, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

How is it "judicious WP:COMMONSENSE" to avoid using the most common name as the title for this article? Where exactly is the "selective interpretation"? Also, Mexican-American War need only be "in common use," but Mexican War needs "conclusive evidence" that it is "overwhelmingly more common"? How is this not a double standard? As for evidence that Mexican War is the most common name see Requested Move II: 23 July 2007. Where is the evidence that Mexican-American War is the most common name? Kraken7 (talk) 01:36, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Temporal considerations

After looking over titles on Google books, an admittedly unscientific analysis, it appears that the term "Mexican War" was much more common in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Not until the mid 20th century did "Mexican-American War" become a vernacular term, and even then, it really didn't take off until the last 25 years or so. Why did this change take place? Maybe as the corners of the Earth became more accessible due to air travel, people realized that the "Mexican War" was unrecognizable outside of North America, so its usage fell out of favor. The "Mexican-American War" is more descriptive, and therefore undoubtedly makes more sense to those who aren't residents of the United States and Mexico. Personally, I agree with them, but that's just my opinion. Kindest regards, AlphaEta T / C 02:21, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Mexican War isn't unrecognizable outside of North America. It is merely ambiguous (the French also have a "Mexican War", for instance). This is pretty common. The war we call the Franco-Dutch War is normally just called the "Dutch War," for instance. [And "Dutch War," obviously, is Franco-centric] john k 14:54, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Let's try taking all this energy here

Name of the Mexican-American War in other Languages
Language Name
Arabic الحرب المكسيكية الامريكي
Bosnian Američko-meksički rat
Bulgarian Мексиканско-американска война
Catalan Intervenció Nord-americana
Chinese 美墨戰爭
Croatian Američko-meksički rat
Czech Америкăпа Мексика хушшинчи вăрçă
Danish Mexicansk-amerikanske krig
Finnish
French Guerre américano-mexicaine
German Mexikanisch-Amerikanischer Krieg
Hebrew מלחמת ארצות הברית מקסיקו
Hungarian Mexikói-amerikai háború
Indonesian Perang Meksiko-Amerika
Italian Guerra messicano-statunitense
Japanese 米墨戦争
Korean 멕시코-미국 전쟁
Liguru Guæra Mexico-Stati Unïi
Netherlands Mexicaans-Amerikaanse Oorlog
Norwegian Den meksikansk-amerikanske krigen
Polish Wojna amerykańsko-meksykańska
Portuguese Guerra Mexicano-Americana
Russian Американо-мексиканская война
Slovenian Ameriško-mehiška vojna
Spanish Intervención Norteamericana en México
Swedish Mexikanska kriget
Ukranian Американо-мексиканська війна

I've appropriated the outline from American Civil War, and put in a very few things. Let's flesh that out. BusterD 14:46, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, but irrelevant to the subject at hand: What is the correct title for this article per Wikipedia guidelines? Kraken7 18:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ACW-task-force

Considering how many generals in the War of Northern Aggression got their start in this war, I figure the ACW task force nejhjbh popie pop pee

[edit] Conflicts with article in Spanish-language Wikipedia

I happened to be reading the Spanish-language Wikipedia today (I do that on occasion) and ran into the article titled "Intervención Norteamericana en México" which apparently is about the Mexican-American War. I was reading it and was surprised by some of the things I read in it. I went back to check the article on the English-language Wikipedia (this article) and there appears to be a very large number of conflicts. Now, neither this article here nor the Spanish-language article use much of any references. This makes it a time-consuming process to do any fact-checking and hence I have not done it. I was wondering if some of you would be willing to do some fact-checking to resolve this conflicts. In the process, this would also help add more references to both articles. If you are wondering what the conflicts are, just read both articles, they are not hard to find. Some examples are that the Spanish-language article has the following sentence "Taylor cruzo el río Nueces, violando abiertamente el tratado internacional sobre la frontera de esta «nueva nación tejana»." refering to an international treaty (name not given) regarding the borders of "the new Texan Nation" and establishing said borders at the Nueces River. It also has a sentence regarding the annexation of Texas to the United States, "La República de Texas se anexó a Estados Unidos en 1845; la frontera natural y reconocida en ese tratado fue el Río Nueces, es decir el territorio entre el Nueces y el Río Bravo era reconocido como perteneciente a México.", that refers to some treaty recognizing the border as the Nueces River and it explains that the land between the Nueces River and the Rio Grande was recognized as belonging to Mexico. On the other hand, the English-language article mentions no such treaty or treaties but instead mentions the Treaties of Velasco and devotes three paragraphs to Polk's attempt to purchase Alta California and Santa Fé de Nuevo México by sending John Slidell, none of which is mentioned in the Spanish-language article. Overall, the two articles paint completely different pictures on just these points alone and there are still more conflicts between the two articles. I have not raised the issue in the Spanish-language Wikipedia largely because the vocabulary I use when writing and speaking Spanish is more limited than in English and trying to translate from the English-language Wikipedia to Spanish would result in some challenges (or awkward/imprecise translations). If someone else wants to bring that up there, I would encourage it. In any case, I think it would be worthwhile to resolve these conflicts but I don't want to attempt to do it just on my own. Mecaterpillar (talk) 00:34, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Typo

I think there is a typo in the info box, its listed that there were 17000 something KIA but right underneath that it states 13000 something dead, so i'm thinking its supposed to be casualties not KIA? C H, current student and official Wiki Editor of the Kinawa Middle School Article (talk) 00:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Map

It's great being able to go back and see a previous version of a Wikipedia article, but it seems that it's not quite as easy to do the same with a Wikipedia image. In the case of [|this map] , I think I saw a version of it last week, which would be before its current (and only) version date of March 29. So I guess that would mean that when the original image was edited, the new one was put up as a new file instead of a new version of the old file. So now I can't find the old one. Anyone got any suggestions? User:fletcherism April 1 2008

[edit] Texians versus Texans

I've never heard the term "Texian," the Wiki Texas page says the proper demonym is "Texan," and barring complaint, I'd like to change it. It's locked. Can anyone make that correction? Dolewhite (talk) 23:33, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

See Texian. The term is only used in this article for the period of time when Texas was a part of Mexico, and part of the state of Coahuila y Tejas, which is an acceptable usage of the term. Darkspots (talk) 01:03, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

That being the case, can we hyper-link the first occurance of the term Texian to the Texian page? Dolewhite (talk) 19:56, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

That's an excellent idea. Darkspots (talk) 22:28, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} Please edit the first word of the fourth paragraph of the background section, wikilinking "Texians" to Texian. Thanks! Darkspots (talk) 22:34, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Y Done. Sandstein (talk) 22:46, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thornton Affair Date

Instead of the paragraph which appears in this article in the following way:

"On April 24, 1846, a 2,000-strong Mexican cavalry detachment attacked a 63-man U.S. patrol that had been sent into the contested territory north of the Rio Grande and south of the Nueces River. The Mexican cavalry succeeded in routing the patrol, killing 11 U.S. soldiers in what later became known as the Thornton Affair after the slain U.S. officer who was in command. A few survivors returned to Fort Brown."


I propose (as a starting point for negotiation) a substitute:

"On April 24, 1846, about 1,600 troops under General Arrista crossed the Rio Grande. In what became known as the 'Thornton Affair', 70 American dragoons led by US Capt. Seth Thornton were ambushed or were attacked at Rancho de Carricitos on April 25. Eleven US Soliders died in the confrontation, Thornton and others were taken prisioner, and some returned to Taylor (at Fort Texas/Brown or not?)."

The old paragraph is bad because of the following problems it contains: 1: wording implying that the Mexicans attacked on April 24th (which is not true according to all sources except the speech of James K. Polk)

2: use of the word 'routing'

3: the implied idea that Thornton's soliders had been sent in to the disputed area seperately from Taylor's soliders (a 63-man U.S. patrol that had been sent into the contested territory north of the Rio Grande) it makes it sound like Taylor sent Thornton's company into a disputed area, but I think we should make it clear that Taylor was always in the so-called disputed area and that Thornton was just sent to patrol the border.

4: Thornton wasn't slain, he was captured (side note: if he had been slain, it would have been he rather than Ringgold whose name would have been hailed hero)

5: While the statement that a few survivors returned to Fort Texas/Brown is true, I think it would be prudent to mention that several fellows were taken prisoner (including, I believe, Thornton)

We all need sources for our info on a subject as contested and truly important as this; please don't write a paragraph like this without a source! Mine is: http://www.nps.gov/paal/historyculture/ranchodecarricitos.htm and http://www.dmwv.org/mexwar/documents/polk.htm

All the text above this post was added by one IP. IP, can you clean this up and make it coherent for the other readers of this page? I think your thoughts are out of order and I can't make sense of what sources back up which claims. Thanks, Darkspots (talk) 00:25, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Figuring out the date on which the Thornton Affair occured:

A History of the American People by Woodrow Wilson Vol.4 (Google Books) says April 23rd

http://www.dmwv.org/mexwar/documents/polk.htm: Polk's speech says April 24th

http://www.nps.gov/paal/historyculture/ranchodecarricitos.htm: the park service says April 25th

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornton_Affair: the 25th and 26th

[edit] List of Mexican-American War Veterans

The "see also" section contains a List of Mexican-American War Veterans that no longer exists. In light of the article's deletion, could an admin please remove the item per the page layout guidelines? Thanks, AlphaEta 18:58, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

This seems like a good thing to do.

{{editprotected}} Please remove the List of Mexican-American War Veterans from the "See also" section. Darkspots (talk) 14:38, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Y Done --CapitalR (talk) 14:51, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology within article

The article title should stay "Mexican-American War" for clarity, but the article text should note that "Mexican War" is the traditional name in the US and make some use of the term in the rest of the article. Here are some ideas for distributing mentions of the two names of the war within the article:

  • roughly half MAW and half MW
  • Text referenced to a source should use the same term used in the source
  • MW for passages about older US scholarship, MAW for modern or international

What do you think? If no discussion, I'll work on this myself at some point. --JWB (talk) 15:35, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

If this somewhat reasonable compromise had been offered before, I would have had no objection. I endorse such action now. However, since there's an article created for naming, I'd suggest the fuller explanation appear there, then a more concise explanation appear in the article introduction itself (not a hat or a mere note). I'd like to see at least one mention of at least one of the terms La Intervención Norteamericana ("The North American Intervention"), La Invasión Estadounidense ("The United States Invasion"), or La Guerra de Defensa ("The Defensive War") mixed into the body as well, if appropriate. BusterD (talk) 15:49, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, what is the article created for naming? --JWB (talk) 04:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Battle of Veracruz.jpg

{{editprotected}} First image in the article should be replaced with its duplicate "Battle of Veracruz.jpg". Thanks. Siebrand (talk) 13:07, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, Image:Battleveracruz.jpg should be replaced by Image:Battle_of_Veracruz.jpg to deal with image-duplication issue. Darkspots (talk) 13:15, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Y Done --CapitalR (talk) 14:20, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Protection status or reason seems wrong

You semi-protect against vandalism (the stated reason here), since logged-in vandals are quickly dealt with. You fully protect against edit warring. Now which is it to be? Not both, please. And I find the long duration of protection inappropriate. What is the reason for it? TONY (talk) 03:36, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wilmont Proviso

It was introduced in 1846, not 1847. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coching (talk • contribs) 06:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Impact of the War in Mexico

This section seems a little suspicious. It's not attributed, and seems like a sneaky political statement. Theinfo (talk) 21:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it does look like trolling. Added 11 hours ago by User:Piledhigheranddeeper. I've removed it. --JWB (talk) 02:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008

Article reassessed and graded as start class. Referencing and appropriate inline citation guidelines not met. With proper inline citations, this article would easily qualify as class B if not GA. --dashiellx (talk) 19:29, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] See Also link for Mormon Battalion

The Mexican-American War article should provide a link to the Mormon Battalion article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Battalion —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.49.181.128 (talk) 21:15, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Awkward phrasing?

Quote from page-Fellow Whig, Congressman Abraham Lincoln, contested the causes for the war and demanded to know the exact spot on which Thornton had been attacked and U.S. blood shed. "Show me the spot," he demanded.

Isn't that kinda really realy awkward sounding? 98.221.25.226 (talk) 21:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

So how would you rephrase it? Something better can go in the article. Darkspots (talk) 22:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)