Talk:Metrication in Canada

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Contents 1 Imperial vs. US 2 Metric in Canada 3 Adoption by ordinary people 4 Question 5 Transport agencies 6 Engineers? 7 Height

[edit] Imperial vs. US

The article is somewhat confusing for the uninitiated. On the one hand it says "there is still significant use of non-metric units and standards in some sectors of the Canadian economy, mainly due to the close proximity to the United States". But on the other hand, Canada previously used Imperial units rather than U.S. customary units, as the examples dealing with fluid measures make abundantly clear. In some passages, the term "Imperial units" is more or less mistakenly used to reference the U.S. system. Could somebody clean this up and clarify Canadians' actual understanding of these issues? —Naddy 11:42, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Metric in Canada

As an engineer who works in Canada I deal with this mess every day. We are taught metric in school, almost like it is a religion, the "pure" and "perfect" system. However, it is rarely used in industry. Right now I am working on a mechanical system design for a large meat processing plant. I can tell you 100% of the design has been done in IMPERIAL, not US or metric. Flow rates are in igpm, air handlers are being built based on flow rates of cubic feet per minute. I have done a fair amount of work in Alberta and they tend to use USgals a lot due to their attachment to the USA and the oil industry.

I would say that the scheme of everyone using metric has not been overly sucessful, seeing as how professionals and tradesmen still overwhelmingly use imperial.

Prior to becoming an engineer I worked in the automotive trade, same thing... the only metric used was on import cars.

Also of note, I am six foot three inches tall, one hundred ninety pounds. There are 32.2 pounds in a slug, 12 inches in a foot, 16 tablespoons in a cup, &c...

One final note of failure: I was born in 1978, and graduated university in 2004.

I would imagine that a scientist or government regulator might argue that Canada is fully metricated, but spend 5 minutes on a construction site, a garage, or grocery store, and you will have your answer. --Mf135gas 03:57, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Wow, that is very interesting. It is exactly the opposite in the UK. Engineers and all exports are in pure metric and have been for decades. Where imperial is used, it is in traditional service industries or just in conversation. An example I recently discovered in the UK is that it is illegal to sell bottled or canned beer in imperial measurements, while (Because of the influence of traditionalists) it is illegal to sell draught beer in metric measurements. The media generally quotes most measurements in a mixture of imperial and metric. Weather reports will say wind speed in miles per hour, while temperatures are in celcius. Road signs in the UK are all imperial by law, and there are fanatics here who go around defacing any signs they find with metric measurements on them. Its very interesting that Canadian industry uses imperial, while ordinary people have converted. How old is the machine you use? Could it predate metrication. Seabhcán 09:12, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

There isn't much left that predates metrication. I recall my father telling me that his high school texts were converted to metric in the late 1960s. All of my math and physics texts in high school were 100% metric. It wasn't until university that I was academically exposed to the Imperial system. I recall someone asking as to why were going to learn imperial in a first year Dynamics class. The answer was, correctly, because no one in the "real world" uses metric. In university, about 1/2 of our problem sets/exams were metric, so I am entirely fluent. I must say though, that since I entered the working world, the only metric I have seen is while working with a Dutch supplier. I also run across it in the National Building Code.One of our suppliers on a current job is from the south of England. They gratefully supplied me some mechanical loads in Imperial, but I think were a bit shocked to find that we weren't going to use metric. It is a strength to be entirely fluent in both systems, one of the advantages Canada has. However, I think one will always feel more comfortable in one as opposed to the other. Personally, I use the Imperial system because I have a very good grasp of physical end of it, eg: I can indentify a pound of hamburger, but I cannot visualise a kilogram of hamburger. Abstractly though, I prefer dealing in metric because given Joules (energy) I can find a related rate kilowatts (power) easier than I can do with BTUs and horsepower. Ultimately though, I will convert the end result of the calculation into imperial because the electic motor, or whatever it is will be sized in horsepower. Perhaps on a more social end though, I think there are reasons worth discussing why the UK has embraced metrication while Canada has not. Some of it has to be trade related with the United States, however most Canadians will clearly indicate that being more American is not the motivation. --Mf135gas 03:57, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

The reason for UK industry's use of metric is simple - 90% of exports go to purely metric countries (The article Metrication in the UK has details) - but outside of industry imperial is sometimes used. Ireland is a better example because we have metricated virtually everything. Imperial units are now only refered to in vague references - "It's about a mile away" (When it could be anything from 1-3 km). When precision is required, metric is always used. Cookery books are an exception as they are usually in dual measurements - even though food is sold in metric now. I did a physics degree in Limerick university in Ireland and imperial units were never mentioned (Even though we had lecturers from the the US, UK, India and other places) Here in the UK where I'm doing a PhD, I have never encountered imperial in my work (but supermarkets and road signs use it) although a friend in Low Temperature physics had to learn what 'psi' is because the UK manufacturer of a piece of equipment used it for some reason - but it is rare. I think the reasons why the UK still used imperial in daily life is down to anti-europe feeling, which doesn't exist in Ireland. Seabhcán 09:14, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Adoption by ordinary people

This article does a good job of explaining how metric is used by Canadians but doesn't quite explain why.

It's clear that the federal government of the 1970s used its power over labeling laws and the like to push metric. But education and road signage would be provincial and local responsibilities, not federal. Was there some kind of federal-provincial agreement on a metric timetable? And what about the media? I can understand if the government's weather service decided to switch to metric in 1975, but I would have figured that the media would have kept using the old system its readers and listeners were then used to? Was there an agreement between the government and big media companies? Oddly enough, Environment Canada allows users of its website to get temperatures in both Fahrenheit and Celsius. -- Mwalcoff 06:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

• The constitution gives the feds sole jurisdiction over "weights and measures", so the feds could regulate the introduction of metric in all aspects of the economy. As for the switch from farenheit to metric, I highly doubt that there was any agreement between the government and media companies. In fact, as a kid I remember television weather reports using both farenheit and celcius during the 1970s. As people become more familiar with celcius, farenheit was eventually dropped over time, but it was a decision of the media outlets themselves. As for Environment Canada (http://weatheroffice.ec.gc.ca/canada_e.html), most of the site is in celcius, but one can convert some pages to farenheit. I'm sure there is still some demand, particularly among older Canadians. I heard once that the sole remaining segment of the Canadian population that really wants their weather in farenheit are the snowbirds (retirees who spend the winter in the south U.S.); apparently, spending all that time in the States makes them think in the old system. Skeezix1000 16:52, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

• • The feds may regulate weights and measures, but would that apply to a speed-limit sign on a provincial highway? I'm sure it wouldn't apply to schools. Interestingly enough, I just saw a weather report taped in the late 70s from a U.S. television station, and they reported the temperature in Celsius first and Fahrenheit second (although they did not use Celsius in the forecasts for succeeding days). Nowadays, no American media outlet bothers reporting the temperature in Celsius. -- Mwalcoff 01:00, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

• • • Yes, the constitution allows the feds to regulate weights and measures, whether it involves a butcher selling pork chops by the gram or a province installing road signs with speed limits in kilometres. Even where the federal government and a province each pass legislation in their respective spheres of jurisdiction, and the two statutes overlap or conflict, the doctrine of paramountcy results in the federal law prevailing over the provincial law. Skeezix1000 15:08, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question

"To confuse matters, supermarkets will often advertise foods such as meats and produce "per pound", since such prices may appear lower to consumers than prices advertised by kilogram. However, virtually all supermarket scales are metric, and the products advertised by the pound in a supermarket flyer are inevitably weighed and sold to the customer in the store based on a price "per 100 grams" or "per kilogram"."

Why do supermarkets advertise per pound if items are sold by the kilo? Aren't most consumers confused by this?

The same happens here in the UK. It may partly be for the older generation who tend to prefer arrogantly using obsolete systems (typewriters, circular-dial telephones etc.) out of some sort of "principle" (you know the old "But it was like this when I was younger so it must be the best" line). I think the main reason though is the same reason as why virtually everything in supermarkets these days is now priced X.99. Products being 1 decimal shy of a whole number obviously makes shopping slightly more confusing and must create a lot of hassle for the supermarket's employees and would be virtually impossible without electronic tills, so why do they do it?

Simply because their studies show in both cases, some people will think it's cheaper even though in reality it's not and just causes confusion. Canderra 13:14, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

IMO this sentence is hyperbole. I just deleted an earlier sentence that was even worse but will just post a comment for this one. Does anyone have any actual facts to back up the reasoning that supermarkets do this "since such prices may appear lower to consumers than prices advertised by kilogram"? If that is the case then why don't they advertise the price of seafood per gram instead of per ounce? It would seem super cheap!

The reason has more to do with consumer friendliness. I know how much meat costs per pound. I know that $2.00 / pound is a decent price for lean ground beef. If a store started advertising their price per kg, I would have no idea what was good vs. what was not, and probably would not shop there. Thus, in order for metrification for this kind of thing to happen, all stores would have to agree to do it at the same time. Of course this will never happen.

This I believe is the REAL reason behind this situation. If anyone has actual evidence pointing to the sentence in the article I will stand corrected. Jasonkeirstead (talk) 14:57, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Transport agencies

when did all the transport agencies in Canada metricate?

[edit] Engineers?

Since there are a multitude of different types of "engineers", perhaps this section should more specifically mention mechanical engineers or one of the other fields of engineering? j-beda 15:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Height

So there is no section in this article discussing height. That's odd since it is one piece of Canada that is, no matter how hard they try, very imperial. I have never once seen anyone in Canada use centimeters, if they measure height they do it in feet and inches. I can't say that in the article because that would be OR but it'ts damn true. No one else in the world seems to realize this which is why I hate it when someone converts height into metric for my benefit. TostitosAreGross 17:42, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

The article does say "Canadians typically calculate their personal height and weight in feet/inches and pounds respectively, although these measurements are usually converted to metric on official forms." I don't know that much more than that needs to be said. Skeezix1000 18:06, 28 August 2007 (UTC)