Talk:Methuselah

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[edit] Day / 1000 years

In addition, the age of 969 fits within the dictum that man's life would be less than a "day" (i.e 1,000 years) after Adam ate of the forbidden tree in the Garden of Eden.

I'm not sure about this statement. Not only does it seem to make little sense (since when does "a day" mean "1000 years" in the Bible or elsewhere, and why?), but it seems like an obvious and specious attempt to substantiate Methuselah's age solely on the basis of the coincidental amount of time between the original sin and the great flood. No research or cited Biblical passages are given to support the notion, and I can't help but thinking that a "day" (i.e 1,000 years) reads more than a little unclear and at least confusing if not wholly ridiculous. Unless all of this is disputed, I'll remove the statement, as it doesn't otherwise add anything factually valuable to the article. --75.3.22.244 13:58, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Probably quoting 2 Peter 3:8 --Henrygb 23:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "was the oldest person who ever lived"

I can't find support for this claim. He is the person with the oldest age listed in the Bible but that is not to say he was the oldest who ever lived. The Bible does not provide an account of every lineage around that time, even, nor does it say in the text (quoted below) that this was the oldest person. Primarily the lineage to reach Noah is listed in this area. Can we get other support for this claim? Otherwise I recommend removing the clause.

The Biblical references to Methusaleh in Genesis:

5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: 5:22 and Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 5:23 and all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 5:24 and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

5:25 And Methuselah lived a hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech: 5:26 and Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters. 5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.

jewbacca 23:13, May 22, 2004 (UTC)

jewbacca???? that is an odd one

[edit] Ibid

What does "ibid" mean? Shouldn't it say Genesis or (Bereishit בראשית)?--Jerryseinfeld 03:36, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"ibid" means in the same source (referring to a previously cited work). Philip J. Rayment 13:21, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Mesushelach was not the longest living, Adam Harishon lived longer, and, if I am not mistaken, Mesushelach's son, lemech, lived longer.--Shaul avrom 11:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] live span

I think the part of the article referring to the live span is highly speculative and unfounded. There is no reason to believe that people actually lived longer before the flood of Noah's time. It hasn't even been proved that that flood was worldwide indeed. It most likely wasn't. The long livespans of Methuselah and other people before the Flood are simply of mythic nature just like those of early Mesopotamian kings who were said to have lived for up to 30.000 years. --85.74.156.186 20:42, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

You are missing the point here. If I were to tell you about a fictional TV Show like the Sopranos, I'd still be able to explain the rationale for the ending (like it or not) even though the show is false. Likewise, the explanations for 'life span' may be apologist attempts to make what is increasingly untenable seem possible, but they also give us insight into how the Methuselah longevity myth has been used in popular culture...and in that sense, these insights are important, as long as they are framed in a hypothetical format (i.e. no sanction of veracity that this is indeed true).Ryoung122 04:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the first sentence needs citation.Actuallyerwrongashell (talk) 09:32, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comment on Creationists

I have moved the following comment by anon User:70.20.26.83 out of the article onto the talk page:

Edit: This has nothing to do with Creationism. Try Othrodox or Conservative or Literalists or Biblical Theorists

..in response to the claim "Creationists have speculated on reasons for the dramatic decrease in lifespans following the flood of Noah's time."

I have attempted to clarify exactly who is making one of these speculations. It would be nice if a source could be found for the ultraviolet light one. --Stormie 07:09, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

This whole section needs to be removed, or at least pruned to a tiny sliver of its current form. Wikipedia isn't a forum for religious speculation about non-verifiable, unevidenced and fictitious events or phenomenon. Save that for your own message boards.

[edit] Methuselah Picture (Artists' impression)

It would be a nice addition to this article if there's a photo Anonymous _anonymous_Have a Nice Day 20:27, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

This article refers to 'the majority of scientists'. This is tantamount to 'they say that'. Who are they? Can one authentic quote be found to replace this straw reference?

[edit] Some cleanup

I cleaned up some wording. Now I need to come back and work on the following five passages.

Other creationists believe that, according to the biblical text, a vapor canopy existed around the earth before the flood, which also would have protected mankind from the sun's aging effects. After the dissipation of the canopy during the flood, lifespans dropped rapidly to what they are today. In the opinion of the majority of scientists, proof of these events and their putative effect on human lifespan is lacking. Therefore they are rejected by mainstream science.

A vapor canopy? Is this truly mentioned in the Bible?

and that equated early death with sin (and thus long life with respect)

For "respect", probably substitute a word like purity, or sinlessness.

Richard Morgan's debut novel, Altered Carbon, explored a method of keeping the rich alive, via clones and uploadable memories, for several centuries. The common slang for these people is "Methuselah" or "Meth". This has been argued to be simply a nod to Heinlein's "Howard Family" novels, but this theory is unlikely.

Why is it unlikely? This needs to be explained.

In Johnny Depp's commentary on Pirates of the Caribbean he said that during the island beach scene he felt like Methuselah with his arm around Kiera Knightly (a 17 year old actress).

Not especially noteworthy as a cultural reference for the name. I propose deletion.

Yoda in the Star Wars saga is like Methuselah, aging to 900 years old, until he dies.

Even more tenuous—not even a reference, just a comparison. Lots of things are old enough to be "like Methusalah". I propose deletion. --Chris 21:18, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another rewrite needed here

Guinness Record statistics are soon likely to excuse the Methuselah age controversy, and further misunderstands the meaning of the story--some interpret Methuselah's age to be allegorical and, if anything, represented a different time and context). --Chris 23:11, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, I took a stab at it... --Chris 23:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About that Hebrew translation

Hebrew translation of the name: "Man of the dart" -- is this accurate? --Chris 23:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

No, its not the appropriate translation.--Shaul avrom 13:56, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lifespan section

Inclusion of the information on possible transcription errors makes sense, but is the Creationist material in this section really needed?

RJCraig 06:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "In popular culture"

I've removed the gigantic "in popular culture" section that had grown onto the end of this article. I suggest that if something is worthy of including, we can put it on the disambiguation page linked to from the top of this page. There's no need to clutter this page up with an interminably long list which is likely to contain little or nothing of interest to a reader seeking information on this Methuselah. --Robth^Talk 01:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Life span section There is a bristlecone pine somewhere out west that bears the name Methuselah. Presumably becasue it is the oldes living thing known on the planet. I would like more information.

[edit] The tone of the article

In my opinion, there should be some indication, that the bible is not an actual historical document and information that originates from it should not be taken seriously.

If you do some (more?) research, you will find that it is very accurate historically. ^ross ^nixon 10:19, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it's not. This particular section of the Bible is all but useless for historical information. Quote the book for what it is; an oral history which was never intended to be scrutinized as historical fact. -- UC

[edit] Did anyone watch that episode of QI featuring Methuselah?

When asked who is the oldest man in the Bible, Methuselah was the forfeit answer. They claimed that the correct answer was Enoch, as Enoch is never listed in the Bible as having died, only that "the Lord took him".--80.47.95.10 14:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

One could argue that Adam is the oldest man. Sure his body died, but he is still alive in the spirit! ^ross ^nixon 00:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

What?

[edit] Methuselah age, a correction

I have a theory that corrects Methuselah's age of 969 years to a reasonable 108 years. It also brings the Gilgamesh story of the Flood within a time of the Noah Flood. The last great flood in the Persian Gulf area, as determined by scientists, is also in agreement with the corrected time of the Noah Flood. I have a four page article that I have researched and written detailing this theory. It has charts and a map besides text which I couldn't fit into this kind of communications. For anybody who may be interested, email your desire to rjoace@quay.com and I will send you a copy.24.22.18.55 01:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)Ralph J. Oace24.22.18.55 01:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

What about [Wikipedia:NOR]? I think your ideas are simply apologist attempts and not credible, but even then you don't cite sources, either.Ryoung122 04:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I changed some minor translation error: "when he dies it shall be sent" >> "when he dies/died - he (someone) will/had send/sent it" I'm an Israeli so I think I know my hebrew well... ;)

[edit] Not years but months

Methuselah was in reality 969 months old when he died, that is less then 80 years. Some ancient misunderstanding have changed the months into years. I got that from nowhere really. But i belive it's true. Barry Kent 20:18, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but you are wrong. The ages of death gradually came down to the current 70-80 years. There is no sudden change that could be interpreted as a change from months to years. Also, if it was months being reported, then you have men fathering children at impossibly young ages (like 5 years old). ^ross ^nixon 03:45, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

What was meant was 'years.' In either case, the claim is not true scientifically.Ryoung122 04:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 120 Years

There is an alternate interpretation of Genesis 6's limitation of 120 years on the life of man. It states that 120 years (or months or whatever - ancient Hebrew tends to get a bit muddy on things like days, etc.) is the length of time from God's warning until the flood. In other words, God was saying "That's it: in 120 years, man's time will be up." 5minutes 19:54, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Names of families, tongues, countries, and nations

Gen 10:20 mentions of the descendents of Ham as being names of families, tribes, cities, etc. depending on which version of the Holy Bible you are referencing. I think there is even an earlier note of such a thing. I feel it possible that the numbers of years are entirely accurate but that although these are names of individuals, the names and years also reference the lineage, much like a surname. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.146.22.19 (talk) 01:53, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good article

This is one of the most neutral, well-written articles I've ever seen on Wikipedia. Good job, editors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dreamanderson (talk • contribs) 12:44, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ICR and Vapour Canopy

"The Institute for Creation Research has posited that a vapor canopy surrounded the earth before the Flood, and that it was the source of the floodwaters."

I doubt the ICR claims that a vapour canopy is the exclusive source of flood water. Considering Genesis 7:11; "... the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened".

The original claim quoted above should have a citation, or it must be re-worked including the possible removal of citation 5 (and the text to which it refers) which links to a paper which assumes only a water canopy supplied flood water. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsultima (talk • contribs) 09:26, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please edit the "lifespan" section

The Babylonians were the first recorded civilization to figure out the 365 day calendar. In the Hebrew religious tradition, the books of Moses (which include Genesis) were handed down orally by the priestly class, the first, ah, "Torah" scroll was not actually written down until the time of the Babylonian captivity under Nebucahdnezzar. It is inacurate to try to place the blame for the extreme ages on lunar cycles or what not in large part because the Babylonians had a calendar that was actually, if anything, even more accurate astronomically than ours is. If the Babylonians knew of the 365 day year, chances are, so did the Hebrew scribe who first wrote down Genesis.

In other words, when it says "969 years old," they MEAN 969 years, literally. Also, the Hebrew language is a combination of Canaanite and Babylonian, which in turn was derived from early Sumerian, at least, the semitic tribes who took over Sumeria. Hebrew writting in fact, is actually Canaanite in origin. The Canaanites, like the Babylonians, knew of the 365 day year, they had to, as their kingdom, like their Phoenician neighbors to the north, were also sea farers and had to know about the stars.

You may want to revise it, or, at least place alternate view points from other sources. Please be aware that the Babylonians did indeed have a 365 day calendar, and that an actual "Bible" of sorts was first written down in Babylon. In fact, most Hebrew writting can be traced directly back to Babylon. And Canaan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.63.78.91 (talk) 05:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Its Obvious?

This passage seems a little speculative, "It is obvious that longer lived people would produce more offspring and therefore longevity would only be lost if the individuals who survived the flood did not have the longevity gene". A 70 year old person won't necessarily produce less offspring than a 120 year old would during their lives. Also, I would think a source would be needed for this so called "scientific scrutiny" the section claims to use. If there are no objections, I'll change it up a bit.24.22.147.163 (talk) 02:30, 8 January 2008 (UTC)