Talk:Methodist Church in Ireland
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Yeah, removed citation because I didnt think it was that important but sure I'll put it up now that you retrieved the link. Muchos gratius and all that. Cheers. (Renhazuki 23:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC))
I dont have the techno-know-with-all!! i just stumbled across the topic and both are issues im interested in - Northern Politics especially! I knew most of that Northern stuff was accurate, just had to find the sources! I noticed you added a citation needed beside the Methodist/Church of Ireland covenant and then removed it... If you wanted to cite it, try - http://www.ireland.anglican.org/archives/pressreleases/prarchive2002/covstmt2.html
to bed with me! work in the morning!
Just finished adding them references you gave me. Much appreciated. I removed the NPOV tag now as there's nothing in my view unbiased about it anymore, although I'm sure someone in the future could expand it even more. Though I'm now wondering why i went to all that trouble to rectify it in the first place. Maybe I'm meant to be an editor or something. Anyway, thanks again for the help. Really appreciate it. You know this is my first discussion about an article here on Wikipedia. Never new I cared so much. You should sign up for it. You'd probably be a better editor than me. Thanks again. (Renhazuki 23:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC))
On the Gordon Wilson front - refer to historical Oireachtas debates to find date of his appointment as a member of Seanad Eireann: http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/S/0144/S.0144.199506270002.html The announcement of his death by An Leas-Chathaoirleach states the date of his appointment to the office by the Taoiseach.
To read bout the public forgiveness after the Enniskillen bombing ("Poppy Day Massacre") refer to http://www.cist.org/pv/em/er2521.htm or http://www.soetrust.co.uk/overview/gordonwilson.htm (which contains an audio link to the act of forgiveness)
Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I had just finished placing citation requests on the article. Certainly those references you provided can now lead me to believe that they were indeed members of the IRA. While my own feelings were always that they were indeed members of an illegal organisation, namely the IRA, I had to ensure that there was verifiable evidence to back up the claim that they could be called "Fugitive Men".
My feelings are that neutrality and objectivity of all articles on Wikipedia is paramount. While I myself would probably not have described them as "Fugitive Men" in the first place I would accept now, because of the links you provided, that the statement is probably the correct one. Thanks again. (Renhazuki 22:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC))
the following links can confirm Harold Good's involvement as an independent observer during the destruction of IRA arms late last year.
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/peace/decommission/hgar260905.htm
http://www.breakingnews.ie/2005/09/26/story222552.html
have subsequently found information regarding The Feakle meetings on the Bristish national archives website.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/releases/2005/highlights_december/december29/northernireland.htm
The article cites Rúairí O'Bradaigh as one of Irelands most wanted men... and that he certainly was at various stages throughout the 70s, including a number of arrests under the offences against the state act.
I know that there certainly was a meeting between Eric Gallagher and the IRA in Clare, it was seen as a turning point in the peace process at the time, pretty famous moment if you follow it all. Finding it difficult to find substantial documents on the net, but could certainly find it in books I have lying about. However some of the following may suffice
http://www.presbyterianireland.org/news/news2000/news0285.html - an obituary of a Presbyterian minister who appears to have been at the meeting in Feakle with Dr Gallagher.
A small biography on the man can also be heard on the following link from the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/realmedia/religion/sundaysequence/profile_of_a_peacemaker.ram In fairness to the man, he can be credited with alot, I understand he was one of the original proposees of power sharing in Northern Ireland also.
Those links will clear up that the meetings certainly happened, whether or not you want to describe them as "fugative men" may ultimatily come down to your personal political views. However, from a legal perspective within the Irish state, every member of a proscribed unlawful named, unlawful organisation as highlighted in Irish legislation, could be described as such.
Thanks for that link. Unfortunately I dont think that could be used though as it's from Wikipedia and also there's very little info on the article page in question including the most important point of all: no references or citations. I've just finished adding references to most of the article. Took me a while but managed to find the references in question. I hope that would sort it out a bit.
But yeah, can't find anything on the last point involving the troubles. It's perhaps the most controversial piece of the article. If a verifiable reference was found then it could, in my opinion, sort it all out and i would see no reason to conclude that an NPOV had been established by saying that the Methodist moderators had met "Fugitive Men". (Renhazuki 22:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC))
Me again, yea citations would be good, I wouldnt know where to start with getting them though as I didnt write the piece, so what will we do with those? The piece on Eric Gallagher and fugitive men appear to be quoted from the Eric Gallagher page written by someone else again (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Gallagher). Going by Irish law, which I study, it would be arguably accurate to describe any member of the IRA as a fugitive, as it is a "proscribed organisation" under the category of an illegal organisation under the Offences against the state act 1939 amended under the Criminal Law act 1976 under Irish law, membership of anyone in this organisation carries a mandatory sentence. That may clear up that point.
This latest revision is a lot better than the last one but in my opinion it could still do with a re-write to sort out some outstanding issues with the article. I refer to one section which mentions the men that met with the Methodist moderators as 'Fugitive Men'. There is no reference to this being the case as they could simply have been Sinn Fein representives not wanted by the security services. If it is the case that they were members of the IRA and wanted then a citation is needed for that particular section. In fact, there are many instances of citations being required.
The article has the potential to greatly expand on the overall theme of religion in Ireland. It still does not have an NPOV for the reason I mentioned above. I would hope somebody would do more with this article. I would do it myself but I do not feel I'm qualified enough to take such such an undertaking. Granted however, the article does not feel like an advert anymore and I would thank the person for cleaning it up. (Renhazuki 20:38, 16 August 2006 (UTC))
Not Historical Buff, but did a clean up, hope it meets to satisfaction of all. Displays the facts which were relevant within the article, many of which I must assume are true but has taken the "Spin" off things. Have left issues such as "The Four Alls" in place as although they may seem a bit preachy, according to the website of the organisation (irishmethodist.org) they do appear to be accurate in reflecting the principals of that organisation and as such are not statements of truth within the article but stating beliefs of a particular organisation. Words such as "prestiguous, enormous" etc have been removed throughout the article as have a number of long ramblings which appear to be taking from a publication but unquoted.
I hope that what has been achieved is a happy medium where the full facts of the organisation are maintained within the article but that a spin has been taken off them. I would hope that Historical Buff is happy to leave them as they are so as to not continue to appear to be "preaching" and that Renhazuki is prepared to accept those areas of the document which appear to be factual unless he/she can document otherwise.
I am somewhat disappointed that the user Historical Buff could not see past their obvious bias towards this article and re-write this article. Not only did they originally write what is essentially a way to get people to join a church but to delete the correct templates informing readers that this article lacks a Neutral Point Of View (NPOV) and that it looks like an advert is disgraceful.
Wikipedia is not a church pulpit but is rather a way of distributing factual and verifiable content. The Wikipedia help page Wikipedia:Neutral point of view has this to say on Religious Bias:
Religious bias [is where] one religious viewpoint is given preference over others
If Historical Buff has a difference of opinion about what I have said here, fine, I would appreciate that they respond to the discussion forum here instead and maybe we can find a way of sorting this article out to make it conform to a NPOV.
Only then will the templates be taken down. However if they are taken down by anyone else before a NPOV has been established then I will put them back up just as quick. Renhazuki 19:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Methodist Church in Ireland-Resource Base
Site..Methodist Church in Ireland-RESOURCES, http://www.methodistchurchinireland.co.uk has a photo gallery of Irish Methodist churches. These have been 'geotagged' providing precise location maps. In addition, there are links to all church website and email addresses.
Rayrwbwiki 11:59, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Methodist church in ireland logo.png
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