Talk:Mescaline

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Under the legal status this article claims that dried cactus is classified as a class a drug in the uk. This is not true - dried cactus is unclasssified and can be bought legally from a number of specialist retailers. I will ammend this as it is a serious innacuracy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.43.230.2 (talk) 11:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the section on Native American religious drug use should be reworded. It currently suggests that the usage continues today or that ALL Native American religious practices use drugs. As well the current statement is not cited. I am not an expert on Native American religions and do not feel comfortable editing the section myself. 70.52.170.106 03:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)M. Paterson


Small question; why mention the salt (3,4,5-trimethoxyphenethylamine hydrochloride)? I'm no chemist, but aren't there more salts that would be active in exactly the same manner? Or is this the common version of synthetic (or extracted) mescaline? In that case, maybe it should be mentioned?

Mescaline isolation almost always requires an acid-base extraction, because mescaline is an alkaloid. The type of acid used in the extraction process determines the type of salt. If one were to use hydrochloric acid, it should form a hydrochloride salt (mescaline hydrochloride). If one were to use citric acid, it should form a citrate salt (mescaline citrate). Hydrochloric acid is commonly used for several reasons, one being that it is an exceptionally strong acid requiring small amounts to create a significant pH change. It would be reasonable to assume that the hydrochloride salt is the most common form of mescaline.

I've heard of mescaline sulfate being very common as well.

Also mescaline citrate, several documents have mentioned that if produced for consumption (obviously, illegal) this is the best way to do it because citric acid is safe to ingest. Dr. Shulgin suggests that this may even be a better approach than some other methods: "My gut feeling is that there may be quite a bit of alkaloid still in the xylene [used in the extraction process], and maybe a couple of extracts...would be useful" due to the safe nature of this particular acid. Granted, you'd have lots of citric acid in the end product changing the dosing characteristics (and possibly requiring the ingestion of Tums simultaneously) but it would be higher yield. Jkoebel 00:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone have a structural picture of the salt form? (any salt would do.) Jkoebel 00:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Pharmacology

Can someone please post the pharmacology of mescaline? The information has been incredibly hard to find. I am looking for specific drug - receptor interactions. Primary literature references are preferred.

Done and done -- check the "Method of Action" section that I added. Jkoebel 00:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Side Effects

The list of side effects is not displayed in an unbaised and objective format. It might be a useful guideline for recreational drug users but is not appropriate for an encyclopedia artical. The side effects shouldn't be catogorized under subjective terms such as 'positive' or 'negative'. I am removing the list and suggest that it be replaced with a detailed list with cited sources. CaverousOne 03:15, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that categorizing side effects as 'positive' or 'negative' is not NPOV, especially since the supposed "positive" side effects (e.g. "open-eye visuals", euphoria, etc) would definitely not be positive in all circumstances (such as when operating heavy machinery, for example). As a compromise until somebody cleans up the page, I have removed just the 'positive', 'neutral', and 'negative' headings, and left the content intact. -- Wonderstruck 02:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
In psychological terms (i.e. in the description of schizophrenia), "positive" tends to refer to things not normally present which are gained, for instance, hallucinations. "Negative" would refer to things normally present which are lost, for instance, executive functioning, edge perception (due to inhibited neurons in, IIRC, the visual cortex), loss of grooming behavior in cats, etc. Positive/Negative certainly can be NPOV, but using positive/negative for good/bad isn't so hot. Jkoebel 00:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Carlos and the Cactus

I think it's problematic to have him mentioned as a famous user, seeing how many people discredit the truthfulness of his writings, going to the extent of doubting if he has ever taken the drugs described in his books. Some claim that people who have known him personally have stated that "he hated drugs". Unless objections arise, I will remove him from the list in the near future. Kind regards, --Twisturbed Tachyon 01:29, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Famous users

From the article, the following do not have sufficient citation, either here or in their respective articles, to support their user of mescaline. Please provide sufficient evidence, preferably in the respective articles, and then re-add the individual to the main article here.--chris.lawson 21:59, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

  • Syd Barrett
  • Jack Kerouac
  • Henri Michaux -- see citation in body of article as of 31 October 2005.
  • Jim Morrison
    • "SB: Do you have other books in mind for the future? M (Ray Manzarek): Yes. A road story in which three (University of California-Los Angles) students on spring break go out to the desert in Arizona to search out peyote. And they find it. " milwaukee channel news
    • "I had read all about Terence Stamp's and Jim Morrison's frightening experiences with the trippy cactus plant in their respective biographies" the gaurdian
    • ""After he ventured to the desert looking for Peyote and came back, what did he say happened? Peyote opens the Doors of Perception . It takes you to states beyond yourself and your narrow little way of looking at the Universe Jim was a seeier after wisdom and a shaman We were all seeking enlightenment. Aren' you?" interview with ray manzarek
    • is that enough? none of it is real concrete, but evidence suggests he did, and apparently its in his biography. won't add it w/o approval. more searching to occur in the near future. --Heah (talk) 01:37, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Robert Del Naja
  • Hunter S. Thompson -- I'm fairly certain HST mentioned this in interviews on occasion. Don't have a source right now, though.--chris.lawson 21:59, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
    • "In the last month two new Thompson titles have hit shelves. The first, Screwjack, isn't even really a book, coming in at fifty-nine pages, with rather large print. It begins with a piece written during Thompson's first encounter with mescaline ("Mescalito" is also reprinted in Songs of the Doomed) , which would become his drug of choice, and it only gets less understandable from there" spike magazine
    • "PLAYBOY: What do you like best? THOMPSON: Probably mescaline and mushrooms: That's a genuine high. It's not just an up -- you know, like speed, which is really just a motor high. When you get into psychedelics like mescaline and mushrooms, it's a very clear kind of high, an interior high." interview in playboy
    • "Hunter was subsequently assigned by Sports Illustrated to go to Las Vegas and cover something called the Mint 400 motorcycle race. He took along an associate, Oscar Zeta Acosta, a 250-pound Chicano legal-aid lawyer. They rented a car for the trip, and used Hunter's expense money from the magazine to stock its trunk with, as he later wrote, "two bags of grass, 75 pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, and a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers ... and also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of Budweiser, a pint of raw ether, and two dozen amyls."" Kurt Loder talking about his death
--Heah (talk) 23:40, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Carlos Santana
    • "At the Woodstock festival, Carlos Santana takes mescaline, assuming, wrongly, that he will have plenty of time to come down before he has to play his set. “It was pretty scary,” he will later tell Blender. “Especially when the neck of your guitar is dancing like a snake.” " interview in blender]
    • "I can tell that when I open my mouth people are afraid, because their sense of right and wrong is still in a little box. But I'm comfortable with my existence, and the things that I did learn from mescaline and LSD, I don't regret one trip. I learned so much from each one--as far as all is one, to feel someone else's pain, to feel connectedness" interview with santana]
--Heah (talk) 23:47, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Allen Ginsberg
  • Alexander Shulgin
  • Christopher Mayhew
  • Jean Paul Sartre
    • I saw this and was going to revert it but there is mention of Sartre's mescaline use in his article. of course, that isn't cited either- it just says something along the lines of "historical records show . . ." and it isn't exactly backed up with citations. so while i didn't revert i have no objection to sartre being cut out.--Heah (talk) 05:12, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
        • Generally amphetamine is mentioned.Constanz - Talk 10:21, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Lewis Black
    • Wrote that he took mescaline before he took his GREs in the book Nothing's Sacred.

Estonian psychiatrist and writer Vaino Vahing depicted using this drug in his 1970s Diary, now published. Don't remember whether he himself 'tried' the drug or recalled a colleague.Constanz - Talk 10:21, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Warning

Someone posted this warning on the page: "Mescaline can be a scary experience if you are not ready for it. Be sure, before you try it, that you research it well. Although negative long or short term effects or not probable, make sure you know your own body before ingesting any drug, including Mescaline."

Mescaline can cause negative long term effects such as Hallucinogen Persisting Perceptual Disdorder. Also known as HPPD.

I can see that there might be some point in putting some kind of warning there, but this one is certainly not phrased in encyclopedia style, and since I have no experience with other Wikipedia drug and medication pages, I moved it here. Jeremy J. Shapiro 02:34, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Use in movies?

Isn't this "Use in movies" section somewhat inane and useless? Would anyone object to removing this section as it doesn't offer any relevant information about mescaline? Wowbobwow12 17:58, 14 April 2006.

I, for one, would not object . . . --He:ah? 00:22, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes

Nice quotes, but who the hell are Neo and Choi? --Big gun 22:18, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Neo, played by Keanu Reeves, is the main character in the Matrix Trilogy. I am not sure who Choi is.

Choi is the dude that replys: Yeah all the time... It's called mescaline, it's the only way to fly. (or something thereof...) 222.155.178.118 04:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chemistry

Hi, I'm new to wikipedia, but I study chemistry & two years ago for an assignment I made a (small) presentation on the chemical aspects of mescaline & I have 1 or 2 (historically innovating) synthesis of mescaline which i could post. As a new user - not sure what to do next snils 2:14, 16 August 2006 (CET)

Hi snils, you could add a short paragraph to the article, maybe with a synthesis scheme, and/or add the respective links to external sites. In general, Wikipedia does not allow detailed synthesis instructions in articles. Cacycle 04:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
May-be adding the synthesis here.Constanz - Talk 10:21, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Famous Users Section

The Famous Users section of this page really doesn't contribute any useful information about the chemical mescaline. I was hoping the people who edit this page and are knowledgeable about famous users might help me move this information to the Psychedelics in popular culture page, where it seems it would be better located than on a page that should be solely about the chemical. As long as no one has any strong objections I'll start moving this section in a few days. Wowbobwow12 14:52, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I would argue that there's a difference between who the drug has influenced and where it has been referenced. By giving a list of notable people who've used it, we provide a bit more insight into its effects, the sort of thinking it inspires. -Sammy D. 132.170.53.75 20:36, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you regarding the famous users, however I think mescaline's appearance or mention in films should be in the Psychedelics in popular culture page in the same way that music and film appearance of other drugs are listed on that page. Wowbobwow12 18:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It just occurred to me that the famous users section in this article does have an appropriate page for this information: List of notable people who have taken psychedelic drugs. This move seems especially appropriate for the reason that no other drug pages have a list of famous users section (for example the LSD or psilocybin articles). What say you editing community? Wowbobwow12 04:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I moved the Famous users section to the List of notable people who have taken psychedelic drugs article. The following:

had no sources, so if you have one please add the user and the citation to the notable people article. Wowbobwow12 18:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] # Temporary splitting/destruction of ego

I removed "# Temporary splitting/destruction of ego" from the side effects list, as it in no way is an objective medical or scientific term; furthermore, it is incredibly ambiguous and its meaning subjective. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.40.62.45 (talk) 08:59, 24 December 2006 (UTC).

  • Although not medical, per se, "loss of ego" (a better way of phrasing it) is actually an accepted definition in the psychological community for a phenomenon described by many phychedelic users and schizophrenics. It is ambiguous and subjective because it is a description of a psychological phenomenon which researchers can only be aware of second-hand. However, it is the term that has come to be used to describe the experience of feeling "outside yourself", even your own thoughts, reported by countless psychedelic users. Sage1987 14:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hans-Lukas Tuebe book

I removed the Hans-Lukas Teube reference because it doesn't belong on this page. Perhaps it could go on the List of notable people who have taken psychedelic drugs article? I'm not sure to what other article it might belong. Wowbobwow12 19:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Where are the references???

This page has NO references. There need to be at least a few. I realize that there's a problem accessing medical articles written when mescaline was first being researched, but someone must have a library of information they could utilize. Also, when an article is severely lacking in references, like this one, it's acceptable to cite not-so-reliable sources like Erowid or the DEA... at least it's not OR, just a bad reference. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jolb (talk • contribs) 06:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC).

Edited out, apparently. The version I was last editing had a number of references to journals, etc. Jkoebel (talk) 04:06, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] HPPD

I removed Hallucinogen persisting perception disorder (HPPD) from the list of side-effects. The authors of the only comprehensive study conducted on peyote, and by extention mescaline, (reported by Wired Magazine here [1]) do not report observing persisting symptoms. In fact, as mentioned in the Wired report, they confirm that they have never observed such an effect from peyote (whose active ingredient is mecaline). Deranged bulbasaur 09:33, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Effects

I've removed the following passage from the article:

Users typically experience visual hallucinations and radically altered states of consciousness, often experienced as pleasurable and illuminating but occasionally is accompanied by feelings of anxiety or revulsion. Like most psychedelic hallucinogens, mescaline is not physically addictive. Mescaline-containing cacti can induce severe vomiting and nausea, which adds an important part to traditional Native-American or Shaman ceremonies as it is considered cleansing.

Someone please find a source for this. Substantial claims require substantial evidence. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 18:13, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I do not see any controversial issue in this passage that would require the removal from the article. Adding sources is a good thing, but we should not remove non-controversial content just because there is no source. If you cannot verify an issue by googling for it, then simply add a {{fact}} tag right after the issue. In any case, please be more specific about your concerns. Сасусlе 13:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the following since it was speculative and contradictory to the Diaz text:

It is speculated that mescaline, along with LSD, psilocin, 5-Meo-DMT and tryptamine, bind to the 5-HT receptors, specifically the 5-HT2A receptor which is a G protein-coupled receptor. Binding to the receptor active site in the neuron causes the G protein to dissociate and become activated with GTP. This released G protein complex stimulates various physical and chemical changes within the cell. It can directly alter the membrane sensitivity to ion transport via conformational changes, stimulate the release of ions from cellular storage, and also stimulate transcription and editing of the primary transcript with the end result of increased ionic activity—all of these methods leading to a change in the neuronal potential. In certain neural cells, this stimulation is inhibitory in action (resulting in the changed perception of edges) while in others it is excitatory, resulting in the positive symptoms of the "hallucination".

See Buckholtz et al, 1990 for more info. --1000Faces (talk) 07:07, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The wording is somewhat crude and long-winded, but not wrong. Please be more specific about your objections, otherwise I will put both removed passages back into the article. Сасусlе 13:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
I wrote parts of those passages, I'll go back and find my sources and edit and re-post. If no updates on Discussion after I do so, I'll merge back into the main article. Jkoebel (talk) 04:03, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 12 hour effects

i have used mescaline before and i have heard people speak of twelve hour effects. in my expieriences (twice) i endured a much longer trip. my first trip lasted 5 days with a strong reflection on the following months(my second only 24 hours). some one also claimed it doesn't create kalidescope like visuals. i expierienced more visual and audiotorial hallucinations then most of my high dose lsd trips. now of course its possible i didn't actually recieve mescaline, (as with many drugs) but i trust my source greatly due to their long term expierience with the drug and the general area of entheogenic hallucinogens. i have met few and far between people who have done mesc and many of which i doubt their credibility. if any one here has ingested mescaline i would like to read about their encounters. Flashthemessage (talk) 10:31, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

This sounds more like one of the long acting drugs such as bromo-DragonFLY or DOI. Cacycle (talk) 12:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't matter because Wikipedia articles may not contain Original Research. Uberloofah (talk) 07:33, 21 May 2008 (UTC)