Image talk:MessianicSeal.gif

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sources proving seal is public use:

http://www.gatesofeden.org/history.html http://www.amazon.com/Messianic-Seal-Jerusalem-Church/dp/9652229628

Link to IMJA article on the Messianic Judaism symbol: http://www.imja.com/Gershon2.html says "The Menorah and Fish, separately or together, are major symbols used by Messianic Jews in Israel. Also the Star of David appears in various logos. However, it is especially the Menorah, with its national and messianic symbolism, that becomes an artistic instrument to identify with the ethnic Jewish community and at the same time, represent Yeshua through the Menorah."

See references as http://www.familybible.org/About/MessianicSeal.htm for articles about it, as well as http://www.biblicalisraeltours.com/messianic_seal.htm - for a archeological pictures of the seal on various artifacts.

inigmatus 22:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Source opposing that: http://fp.thebeers.f9.co.uk/messianic_seal.htm

Regardless, per Josh's idea, if we get one of the congregations, or if you just MAKE one and scan it in, and release it under GFDL, Creative Commons, or just make it public domain, we will not have a problem with the copyright. -- Avi 05:11, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

At the very least I'm working on getting a picture of a synagogue sanctuary that I have seen that uses the exact design for a flag that drapes from the center table, so that it can be included as a source on this page, since the only difference between the symbol here and the symbol there, is that the symbol on Wikipedia is blue and the one in the congregation's is gold - the design, even to the smallest detail, is exactly the same. I don't know when I can get it, but please check back in the next month or so. inigmatus 14:56, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Here http://tsiyon.org/main/messianic_seal_news.htm is a good article on the copyright status of the Messianic Seal. Apparently some archaeological artifacts have been unearthed which bear the seal. This would make the seal almost two-thousand years old. —Wikijeff 01:12, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

And here http://fp.thebeers.f9.co.uk/messianic_seal.htm it calls it a possible archeological forgery. So it may just be 40 years old. -- Avi 16:51, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Symbol description

Ok, its clear that this symbol existed and it existed for some reason, but it isn't at all clear that the bottom is a fish and not just a loop, nor is it clear that the description of it being "The Symbol used to identify the first Messianic congregation, the one led by Yeshua's brother Ya'akov in Yerushalayim" is accurate. Furthermore, as has been detailed on multiple occasions, we are in an English encyclopedia, which means we use English names whether we are rabbinic or messianic. I therefore suggest the following description "A symbol that Messianic Jews believe was used to identify the first Messianic congregation, led by Jesus's brother brother Jacob in Jerusalem" JoshuaZ 02:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Per discussion on naming conventions on the main project page having Yeshu(Jesus) or something similar would be fine as well. JoshuaZ 04:47, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I didn't make up the description, and your version of it seems fine with me. inigmatus 14:51, 20 February 2007 (UTC)