User:Merbabu/Archive9

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Contents

Citation on U2's 16th Album

Can you explain why you placed a citation needed tag on U2's 16th album for saying that 13 of the 24 songs that came out of the sessions were used? As I'm sure you remember, there were the 11 songs on the album, plus Fast Cars, and Are You Gonna Wait Forever. I'm just not sure why you feel that needs to be cited. MelicansMatkin 01:45, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

According to WP:ATT everything needs to be verified. It should not be too hard as whoever wrote did of course get the information from a reliable published source. They just need to cite it. On the other hand, if it did not come from a published reliable source, then it should be removed. regards Merbabu 01:54, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
PS, yes, we can add up the songs, but the info specifially says According to Bono there are 24 songs that came out of the recording sessions for the last album,. Where did that come from? Merbabu 02:04, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Malaysian numismatics

Merbabu, some of the Malayan States issued their own banknotes, coins, postal orders, and rubber export coupons. I'm doing a favour for the numismatists here, so that they can create articles on these subjects. - (203.211.73.10 05:13, 5 May 2007 (UTC))

new header

excellent. I think the wali chinese version has gone silent. I do have the ref for the ricklefs and the old dutchmen who did the north coast records for all that. cheers SatuSuro 13:42, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I thought it was time for a new header. I'm not to good with the graphics but I put the little message in there. I can handle incivilty, trolling's annoying, and I've had a fair bit of bullying of late (but from one particular editor only - no more). Most importantly though - we should always encourage collaborative (as opposed to combative) discussion. Good communication is essential for collaborative projects. Merbabu 01:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
The ABC program 'Big Ideas' had jimmy wales on for almost an hour last night - (from the Sydney meetup I think - it had the chasers stupid ten questions at the end) - and it was excellent - and he did emphasise what you have just said - the creation of community is through collaboration and cooperation - having ventured into the anti community members of the project den a few times recently - they seem to want seek and destroy - not build, they are not really doing anything for themselves or anybody else in the end. SatuSuro 01:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Ahh - The Chaser, best show on TV (along with 1/2 a dozen others). I didn't see that episode though. Anyway, when you get a chance, let us know about your meeting with Jimbo. As for cooperation, it's interesting how quickly discussions over content disagreements degenerate very quickly into combat where people are looking for evidence to back up their position. Rather than the other way around - ie, basing their positions on evidence. Merbabu 01:37, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm just moving from the kids PC to the imac - might put sonething on gmail for you SatuSuro 01:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

U2 using UK English

Whoops. I didn't read the part about the article using "UK English". Just sounded odd reading it so I made the edit. My mistake, sorry. Flag of Canada K-121 Widowmaker (talk) 01:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Not a problem - or "no worries" as we say in 'Australian English'. To be honest, normally i ignore that point, it is really trivial actually. Merbabu 01:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Melayu Kingdom

Hi and yeah I try to look for more references, to improve the page. You are welcome to add or write. L joo 06:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Powderfinger Related Edits

WikiProject Powderfinger You have been invited to join WikiProject Powderfinger, a WikiProject dedicated to improving the Powderfinger-related articles on Wikipedia. You received this invitation due to your interest in Powderfinger and/or your many edits to Powderfinger articles. If you would like to join, please visit the project page, and add your name to the list of project members. You may also wish to add {{User Powderfinger}} to your userpage.

~ G1ggy! Reply | Powderfinger! 04:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

You don't need a huge knowledge about them, remember, Wikipedia:Amnesia test. It's good to have passionate fans help out. G1ggy Talk - Chalk 03:06, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Malioboro

I was trying to egg on Indon to help start an article on Dagadu (there is one at WP ID) - but he alerted me to the immanent fate of Tehbotol - aaargh! not tehbotol! SatuSuro 11:43, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Pics

Probably best to discuss on g tlk if you are still around. (Caniago 14:53, 12 May 2007 (UTC))

Picture of the Week

A picture that you uploaded entitled KerbauJawa.jpg has been selected as Picture of the Week on the Portal Indonesia for the Week 23, 2007. Thank you for your contribution to promote images of Indonesia.

— Indon (reply) — 10:19, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb

Sorry about the quick revert - I didn't realize A Man And A Woman redirected back to the album. The Dark 13:13, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Heh. To be perfectly honest, at first I thought it was vandalism (i.e. "Why the heck did someone only break one link?"). Then I came over and saw you were a U2 fan, followed the link, and realized it was a redirect. By then you'd already reverted it. The Dark 13:20, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Collab & portal

I think we have a winner for collab now and a new record of supporters. Let's kick them to contribute there. :-) Also just to remind you about selected biography on the portal. — Indon (reply) — 13:41, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Ooops, I didn't check again when I posted my message. Nice story. I just already knew that he is Arief Budiman's brother. Re. collab, I will try to find a good stub for the next one. — Indon (reply) — 13:49, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Setuju. I have still Toraja on FAC empty. Only 1 support, one comment and that's it. :( — Indon (reply) — 13:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I think there is no prohibition to make a comment or even a vote to any FAC articles, but I don't want to ask anyone. Otherwise I would be labelled canvassing the nomination. Anyway, about the fauna article. Compared to the FA article Fauna of Australia, there is a prospect that Indonesian one can gain featured status. The only important thing is to put reliable sources and make it as concise as possible (not to list all unique animals there). — Indon (reply) — 14:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Mangkunegara

Ta, can tell its cold here - I thought I was putting the message on your talk page and then realised it was indons, and the similar spurious etymology and anecdotal rubbish is at ratu bokos palace as well - had found a brilliant article on ratu boko in BKI but mislaid it anmd havent gone back. There is a means by where well documented folklore can stay on an article page if the editor knows of the correct texts to qoute re folklore and spurious etymology or geneology in java - but if there is no acknowledgement of the academic/citable ways of exlaining I say that such addons are ad hoc and worth the chop and message to user 'this is an encyc' - watcha think? SatuSuro 01:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I think folk lore can stay as long as it is (1) notable and important to the topic and (2) clearly presented as folklore, not as verifiable historical fact. And it goes without saying that it should be reliably referenced.  :) --Merbabu 02:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Exactly - it seems all the indonesian arts I have ever found with folkore/anecdotal material it always has a 'smell of' not a cite in sight! :( SatuSuro 02:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, the history texts I have often use the such folk tales and legends as they are important in understanding the topic, or at least the context, but they clearly make the point that they are legends that may not be historical fact. Merbabu 02:11, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
PS, one thing that might be something to watch is that if an article cites a legend, as a legend and is reliably sourced as such, let's make sure that it remains clear that it is a legend and not fact. :) Merbabu 02:13, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Exactly - and where the great arguments in the 1960s and 1970s were happening between the Dutch historians and others as to whether any Javanese sources had any credibility as sources on anything - and the whole sultan agung invented his ancestors stuff started up then as well - but dont expect an article on that whole complex debate from me soon!

Btw the ratu boko art is a classc case of either a lift from the in. wikipedia or a folktale book - and the divergence from the BKI article (I must find it) is like they are writing about two totally separate things/places - oh well one day

legends and wali songo go hand in hand, oh well theres a lot to do there, sigh... SatuSuro 02:18, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, yes - wali songo is the classic case. As long as an aritlce identifies what is known to be historical fact and what is legend, it should in theory be fine to have legends, in fact as you say the legends are crucial to the topic. Yes, one day. By the way, what do you think of the text box in the etymology section of Indonesia? Chop it? I put it there but I'm not 100% sure about it. Merbabu 02:22, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Personally I'd keep it - it is a good grab/sound byte SatuSuro 02:26, 15 May 2007 (UTC) +e Orderinchaos

Indonesia FAC

I quickly scanned the article. There are several trivial areas that need minor copyedits. I can (and should) simply do the minor edits rather than complaining about them: this is why I supported the FA. It is now quite late in my time zone and I must go to bed. I will attempt a copyedit some time in the next 24 hours. And thanks for an excellent article! -Arch dude 03:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

thanks for the coredction. Please consider my edits to be suggestions and not holy writ. When my edits mis-represents the facts, plese correct it. As I said, I think the article is already FA. -Arch dude 05:00, 15 May 2007 (UTC) (going to bed now.)

U2 FAC

It's harder for me to say what needs to be removed than for me to say what needs to be there; IMO, start with that, and try to remove everything else. I think the whole big section where the article goes through all the albums is really meant to be a history of the band, right? Well, then, that's what it should be: it should not attempt to describe in detail every tour they've ever gone on and every album they've ever released, but rather it should mention them all, say what needs to be said about them, and move on, and the extensive coverage can be given at the articles for each individual album or tour. So, for instance, it probably IS important to talk about the musical changes of direction, but it's probably NOT important to find three or four different things to say about each album's sound, like is currently being done. Basically, that's the problem: the important stuff is lost among all the detail right now. I know we always try to avoid OR, but a little bit of deciding what the most important events are would be good, so that the story flows.

I know this is very high level. Let me give an example: the Joshua Tree section. The whole first paragraph is probably unnecessary; the last sentence could be kept but isn't really needed. The first two sentences of the next paragraph is strongly important, but the next sentence is unnecessary detail. The remainder of the paragraph is fine. The next one, which talks about The Joshua Tree's release and reception, is very important; the last sentence, about the Joshua Tree Tour, is probably the best example of how a tour should be covered in the main article: short and to the point... although, the second-to-last sentence is so strong and important I might prefer to end the paragraph with it, and talk about the Joshua Tree Tour along with Rattle & Hum. Oh, and lose the quote box - too much detail. (Actually, lose all of them, except maybe the one in the formation part.) Hope this helps. Mangojuicetalk 12:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


Image:Live Aid - U2.jpg

Hello, Merbabu. An automated process has found and will an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, and thus is being used under fair use that is in your userspace. The image (Image:Live Aid - U2.jpg) was found at the following location: User:Merbabu/sandbox. This image or media will be removed per criterion number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media will be replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg , so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. This does not necessarily mean that the image is being deleted, or that the image is being removed from other pages. It is only being removed from the page mentioned above. All mainspace instances of this image will not be affected Please find a free image or media to replace it with, and or remove the image from your userspace. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk 18:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Indonesia FAC

Hey, Merbabu. I completely agree about "secured" instead of "gained" - it's not only more accurate but also less POV. I think the article's got a real shot at FA. I haven't tuned in much since it made GA, but it looks like you guys have made some great additions. I'll see what copyediting I can do in the meantime. And don't worry about the reverts: it's actually much easier to be bold knowing that someone's double-checking everything :) Feeeshboy 03:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Image:Passengersost1.jpg

Hello Merbabu, an automated process has found an image or media file tagged as nonfree media, such as fair use. The image (Image:Passengersost1.jpg) was found at the following location: User:Merbabu/sandbox. This image or media will be removed per statement number 9 of our non-free content policy. The image or media will be replaced with Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg , so your formatting of your userpage should be fine. The image that was replaced will not be automatically deleted, but it could be deleted at a later date. Articles using the same image should not be affected by my edits. I ask you to please not readd the image to your userpage and could consider finding a replacement image licensed under either the Creative Commons or GFDL license or released to the public domain. Thanks for your attention and cooperation. User:Gnome (Bot)-talk 04:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Very

chaotic and sporadic here until the weekend - so I might be delayed for your purposes - might try to gmail a comment later today or tommorow SatuSuro 05:39, 17 May 2007 (UTC) FA and the issues arising have ssoo many possible translations I'll leave it at e SatuSuro 05:49, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Javanese

Made some suggested changes to the new Javanese section in Ethnic Groups. No idea how accurate it is, so please take over and tweak as required from the sources available. (Caniago 12:55, 17 May 2007 (UTC))

hmmm - i think the 42 percent bit is good, but I've come to learn that with these large summary articles, if we try and explain every little bit about the topic we get our prose tied up in knots (as what happened in U2) - i suspect that in part is what Tony1 is talking about. Ie, we should focus on summary style. SO, i'm suggesting dropping the time qualification - ie, since independence which is kind of true, but kind of not. I mean, it's as simple and as problematic a Indonesia itself! ;) Merbabu 13:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Tell me about it - probably why I have avoided the article all day :) SatuSuro 13:33, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, even if you are not game enough to edit (or should that be 'wise enough not to edit'?) your opinion on or off wiki would be most appreciated. Merbabu 13:34, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok give me half (an hour) SatuSuro 13:37, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I had removed the time qualification before I read your comment here. It turns out it was more correct to say since the Suharto era anyway. (Caniago 14:51, 17 May 2007 (UTC))
Well, the period and extent of their dominance is (very) arguable depending at what aspects we are looking at, and the lead doesn't have the words to explain it. :) Merbabu 14:55, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
  1. Section 2 the nutmeg image, and the third and fourth paragraph starts need cleaning up.SatuSuro 13:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Nutmeg image - do you mean the choice of image itself or just it's caption? yeah, something is wrong with that paragraph - i will combine them - but do you mean they need fiurther work? The history of Islam stuff could be tidied. Merbabu 14:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The image on the left and also the right messes with text on my imac with firefox :) SatuSuro 14:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

  1. Dutch colonialism is mentioned in the intro para, and is dealt with in section two - maybe unavaoidable, butyeahbut SatuSuro 13:58, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that matters - the lead is meant to be a very brief summary/intro to what is in the main body - and the Dutch period is a fairly defining period to the Indonesian nation. And it's only 1/2 sentence. Merbabu 14:07, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Maybe - but do I need to be reminded of the 300 years within the space of three paragraphs?
  1. Schwarz (bless his socks) is cited in references and further reading (no one picked that up - whose doing this stuff???) SatuSuro 14:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Um, yeah - i probably did that - ha ha. Does it matter? Ie, why can't he be a reference and a recommendation for further reading. ALthough I know there is probably some policy/'logic' stickler out there who will insist not. Merbabu 14:07, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Cripes - its me- one of them has to go SatuSuro 14:11, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
  1. Third para - 'massive' population? I'd put large myself
BTW I am going off for 5 if you wish to respond here - Im going for a third read through the start area. SatuSuro 14:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
  1. One title for Travel? crap - schwarz needs out, and at least 3 travel texts SatuSuro 14:18, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Rush's travel tales at least - and the economics refs look very thinSatuSuro 14:21, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

  1. Ref 105 - use of caps in refs always bothers me SatuSuro 14:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
  1. External links is odd - any reason for such truncated form and so few?
BTW could keep going - but what do you think at this stage?SatuSuro 14:35, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Keep going - or do you want me to reply to these first? Merbabu 14:37, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

OK- I'll keep going - first with a passing comment - its a pity that the countries rich oral tradition is referred to a non indonesian project page - thats the interesting reflection on the project where the links to other articles show the projects general weaknesses. SatuSuro 14:40, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

  1. Literature in both the Indonesian and the Indonesian culture arts is so quickly skipped - I would say from where I come from - its not an easy issue to resolve butyeabut it is a hell a lot more complicated and more to it than the brief sentences devoted to itSatuSuro 14:53, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Ignoring the fact that some reviewer will nail us on article length - can you suggest or add yourself any more words? Only needs a sentence or two i suggest. Merbabu 14:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Further, what do you think about the bit about only the well off being able to afford a lot of meat in their diet? I added that this morning but is it necessary? Cut it? Merbabu 14:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Hell something like that almost needs a separate article - and just a lead. My thing about food is from my time - normal rural/low income indonesians have very low protein intake - if you cannot lead it into a sep article at this stage I'd cut it - as the issues are multidimensional SatuSuro 15:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry - It must be v late over your way - just had to chase one of the teenagers off his wow game - I'll have to think about it overnight - sorry my response has been so ad hoc - hope to catchup over the weekend some time! SatuSuro 15:03, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Fishing boat picture

I'm not judging the picture you took. It's really beautiful, esp. with political party flags. However the picture is not really fit with the Etymology section. The caption, Fishing boats in the Karimun Jawa island group. The name Indonesia is derived from Indus (India) and nesos (island)., is a bit awkward. The two sentences do not match each other. Perhaps that section only is enough without any picture. Just my 2 cents. — Indon (reply) — 17:00, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Putting a pic of a boat and islands in the etymology section was a suggestion Michael had in the FAC. I think it is a faily good one. Thus the caption must talk about eymology.
Caniago feels that the caption has to be smaller for spacing reasons and removed references to Greek and latin which are important IMO to establishing the etymology link. I don't see spacing as a problem even if i put my screen down to a small resolution. But, perhaps it is better helped by reducing the size of the picture.
Personally, I think the caption works well and fits. It needs to explain the link to the etymology section (the indus and the nesos), and it should say where the pic is - ie, an island fishing harbour. Thus, I think the two sentences do fit. Merbabu 23:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I might try and actually trim the original pic so that is wider - more landscape in shape. That might fix the concerns about its vertical dimensions. Merbabu 23:49, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
The caption was trimmed since it was flowing into and displacing the title for the next section (history) in IE on my system. I have a unusual screen setup - a very high resolution screen with high DPI settings. You can probably simulate the same effect on your system by changing the font size. Anyway, since the pic was removed it doesn't matter anyway. :-) (Caniago 07:45, 18 May 2007 (UTC))

Indonesia

I'll do some more work when you've finished rearranging. As to "against it", I didn't think it was really necessary: the proximity to colonialism in the sentence gave it a strong connection, and rebellion has to be against something. Anyway I won't take it out again. Cheers, Yomanganitalk 17:09, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey, Merbabu. I got more backed up this weekend than I anticipated, so the copy edit will have to wait till next week. I doubt Raul will close the FAC before then, so I wouldn't sweat it. Sorry for the delay! — Brian (talk) 10:55, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

What's the status on Indonesia? I'd like to change to supporting the nomination for FA, but I have a few unaddressed objections. — Brian (talk) 22:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Further reading

No comment on wiki re that :( SatuSuro 03:55, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

It was in the FAC review and it's removal pained me. I know he says it wasn't an FAC killer but i can also see his point as much as I liked it. I sent you a g Merbabu 04:04, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Bah humbug Id rather create new article stubs than be lorded over by ---expletives deleted ---- SatuSuro 04:09, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey you need barnstarts or blunderbusses to bleat out bloody brilliant persistence deserves something - 50 edits to the bloody article. cripes. Hope youre still sane SatuSuro 14:35, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Sanity is something gah-gah that is gah-go-gah-gah completely over-ga-go-ga-rated. Merbabu 14:37, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I go crazy just categorising lonesome oz cats - I hate to think what yours is like. Im off, speak to you again, sampai nanti - SatuSuro 14:41, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Repeated links

I left a comment about this on the FAC page - I believe we are going too far by removing links in most cases. (Caniago 15:11, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

Sentence-initial "however"

There are good psychological reasons for indicating the angle of the sentence (WRT the previous text) at the start, and not interrupting the flow to do so in the middle. Tony 23:59, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Water supply and sanitation in Indonesia

Wow - allude to it indirectly as a big hole in the project one week - and zap its there the next week ? huh? :| SatuSuro 23:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Great minds think alike

Hi there. You just beat me to the Indonesia revert by a few seconds. Thre seems to be a lot more vandalism againt this, other Indonesia related pages and certain users' pages at the moment. Any idea why? Davidelit 08:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Re:Indonesia

I have reviewed for the third time. The content size is fine, 32 kb seems just about right. The prose could do with some more editing and I have put up some comments in FAC. If I put many comments on FAC, it becomes quite a pain to strike each one out given that I have very little time on WP these days.

As regards to SVG images, I have mentioned it as not being an impediment to FA status. The reason why SVG images are preferred is that they are vector images, so in effect they can never be pixellated, and scaled up without loss in quality. Plus they are in XML which is another story... =Nichalp «Talk»= 16:43, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I found the picture in Administrative divisions of Indonesia. It's a bit large, but I really don't know how to scale it down without affecting the positioning of the labels. =Nichalp «Talk»= 05:27, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

orangutan

Your turn to revert. I've already gone past the 3RR limit.... - UtherSRG (talk) 15:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Orangutan?

Gawd was it worth ever doing that page? Orangutan in International Politics - I can see it happening.

...from my talk page...

Give me a minute to look it up. If you like, though, you could send him over to my userpage with any questions or concerns. I'm happy to communicate about it. Aelfthrytha 03:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

cheers - SatuSuro 03:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Off for the moment have fun - perhaps Orangutan in Wikipedia Culture? SatuSuro 04:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Nah I've got it - the Orangutan and the ambient olefactory response to its presence - in ten words SatuSuro 04:20, 1 June 2007 (UTC)



The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.