Talk:Meridian 59
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[edit] History
From Mike Sellers: The posts below have become a sad reminder of a dysfunctional team from the past. There are a number of untruths and half-truths being spread here. I'll note these below as I have personal knowledge of them.
-- The personal knowledge seems to be very flawed. The game demo that the Kirmse brothers made is what made raising money possible, though the Sellers raised the money. The Kirmse brothers ran the development team that built the game, except for a few artists. The Kirmse brothers were consulted heavily by 3DO before the acquisition happened, and the acquisition would not have happened without their consent. Finally, they continued to run the game development after the 3DO acquisition. During the whole time, there was a large disconnect between what people said they did and what actually occurred, and this appears to still be the case. People who worked on the game know the truth, both from the Archetype days and the 3DO days.
- Once again, the facts. I'm being careful to speak only to what I know firsthand, unlike the comments above.
- The Kirmses' early demo made much of the later fund-raising for the company and the game possible. Contrary to assertions made here (and below), Terra Nova Interactive was nevertheless a company (not an "empty shell") prior to the Kirmses' arrival with its initial funding secured, and both business and design documents in place.
- When the Kirmses joined the company they were hired. We brought them on as junior partners, but this was not a merger or joining of forces. The company was already in place, there were no discussions even vaguely along the lines of starting a company or merging groups. They were offered salary and stock as junior but key members of a small team.
- The Kirmses did not run the development team. That responsibility fell variously to Mike Sellers and John Hanke. The Kirmses were key members of the team, being the main programmers, and were responsible for their activities and for interfacing with world builders, but they did not have functional or management oversight on these or overall project concerns.
- The Kirmses were asked for their input on the acquisition by 3DO (in what was later seen as part of an effort to be overly democratic in management by Steve, Mike, and John), but they did not meet with 3DO, were not part of the discussions there, and had no significant part in the acquisition. The acquisition could have gone forward without the Kirmses' consent, as they were corporately not in a position to block such a decision. The only thing they could have done would have been to withhold the code, something which was not considered a realistic concern until after the acquisition.
- The Kirmses were not in management positions after the 3DO acquisition at least through the end of 1996. They were responsible as project leaders for the continued development of their code that formed the foundation of the game.
It's very sad to see that someone continues to try to revise the early history of this project.
The actual facts are:
- Andrew and Chris Kirmse invented the scripting language in 1993 on a hike on Mt. St. Helens.
- They started implementing the game during 1994.
- The entire client/server system, including very basic gameplay, existed by late summer 1995 when they first talked to the Sellers brothers and other suitors about forming a company. Eventually, the Kirmse brothers decided to work with the Sellers brothers.
- Partly true. The facts:
- The Kirmses wrote the client/server system and the script engine.
- Andrew and Chris Kirmse responded to a call for resumes by Mike Sellers on Usenet
- Absolutely untrue
- The Kirmses contacted Mike Sellers because they already had a working game engine and the beginnings of a game. They were not interested in employment, as both were in various stages of university at the time.
- Not true. From Mike Sellers: After having worked with a group in Sweden that did not make sufficient progress on the game (by then well into design and pre-production), I put up a call for resumes on Usent. Several people including Andrew and Chris Kirmse responded to this post. I still have the resumes Andrew and Chris mailed in someplace (including claiming programming credits back to when they were young kids). Deny it if you like (though why you would is beyond me), I have your letter in response to my post and our subsequent emails.
- The Kirmses contacted Mike Sellers because they already had a working game engine and the beginnings of a game. They were not interested in employment, as both were in various stages of university at the time.
- Absolutely untrue
- The Kirmses were hired by the Sellers and were awarded stock in Terra Nova interactive, which already existed. There were no discussions about forming a company.
- Absolutely untrue
- Terra Nova already existed, but it was an empty shell as no money had been raised. All money was raised using the early version of the game that the Kirmses had created, together with a little artwork that Chris Sellers created.
- Not true. From Mike Sellers: You're speaking about things you don't know about. Terra Nova was incorporated in 1994 and again in mid-1995. We raised early money (approximately 10-20% of our total budget) before we hired Andrew and Chris. Steve and I jointly met with Andrew in Vienna Virginia, and drove down to meet with Chris at college in Blacksburg, to discuss hiring them into the company. Steve and I made them an offer for salary and stock, negotiated, and hired them. This was not a company formation nor a meeting of corporate equals. We hired them as programmers (not CTOs). Again, you can say these things if you like, but I have the business plan and corporate and employment records.
- Terra Nova already existed, but it was an empty shell as no money had been raised. All money was raised using the early version of the game that the Kirmses had created, together with a little artwork that Chris Sellers created.
- Absolutely untrue
- In the summer 1995, no significant gameplay existed other than basic navigation in a very limited 2.5D world. All game elements were implemented after September 1995.
- Partly true. The facts:
- Mike Sellers, Steve Sellers, Andrew Kirmse, and Chris Kirmse all joined together in late 1995 as co-owners of the company later known as Archetype Interactive. All four of them became employees of the company. The Kirmses were co-CTOs of the company and were responsible for all programming and program management. The Sellers were responsible for fundraising and art management.
- Partly true. The facts:
- Terra Nova Interactive existed before the Kirmses were hired by the Sellers, having been formed in 1994 based on Mike Sellers' prior company, New World Designs.
- Terra Nova Interactive became Archetype Interactive after a trademark dispute forced the change.
- The Kirmses, as with all other employees, were awarded stock in the company. To that extent they were partial owners in the company, as were all employees.
- The Kirmses were never officers nor co-CTOs of Terra Nova Interactive or Archetype Interactive, nor did they hold any executive or managerial position within the company at any time. Steve and Mike Sellers were the officers of this company.
- Absolutely untrue
- After joining with the Sellers to create a viable Terra Nova company, the Kirmses were co-CTOs
- Not true. From Mike Sellers: Once again, these are unfortunate half truths. I have corporate records, tax records, employment records, etc., for Terra Nova and Archetype Interactive. Andrew and Chris Kirmse were never co-CTOs and never held an executive or managerial role in Terra Nova or Archetype Interactive. Steve, Mike, and John were the sole company executives and directed every major decision on the game and in the company. Andrew and Chris were the primary programmers but had no managerial or executive title or role. There is no basis in fact for saying otherwise.
- After joining with the Sellers to create a viable Terra Nova company, the Kirmses were co-CTOs
- The Kirmses were responsible for programming, but reported to Mike Sellers and John Hanke for program management. Art and design were led by Mike Sellers with production oversight by John Hanke. Steve Sellers was CEO and led all business development and funding activities along with Mike Sellers and John Hanke.
- Partly true. The facts:
- Andrew and Chris Kirmse wrote the client-server and scripting engine for this game. They also led the scripting team (as large as 6 scripters at one point) who developed and implemented all game play.
- After 3DO's acquisition of Meridian 59, Mike Sellers was moved off of the project and was laid off 7 months later.
- Partly True. The facts:
- After the acqusition by 3DO (the Kirmses did not participate in the discussions for this, despite this being reported elswhere), Steve Sellers was moved to business development for the company
- John Hanke became internal producer for Meridian 59.
- Mike Sellers remained as Lead Designer and set up the internal customer service system. After the game's release he was moved to a lead position on a new online game product.
- Incorrect
- Mike Sellers did not participate in any Meridian 59 game design after the acquisition, and very little before it. He was still given a designer credit on the product.
- Untrue. From Mike Sellers: I'm not sure of the motivation here, but these statements simply aren't true. Many people did a great deal of work on the design of Meridian 59 before its initial release, including Damion Schubert, Rob Ellis, and others. I have no desire to take anything away from anyone else, but I'm no longer going to sit idly by and let others claim to have done things they didn't, or claim I didn't do work I did. I was the lead designer on Meridian 59 from its inception (before we hired Andrew and Chris) until its first release.
- Mike Sellers did not participate in any Meridian 59 game design after the acquisition, and very little before it. He was still given a designer credit on the product.
- Incorrect
- In January of 1997, 3DO shut down all Internet projects and laid off the entire division except for a skeleton crew maintaining Meridian 59.
- Incorrect
- Meridian 59's development team actually expanded during these layoffs.
- A half-truth. Parts of M59 staff expanded (scripting, CS), while others contracted. All other Internet projects at 3DO were discontinued, and all employees working on these projects (whose staff greatly exceeded M59's staff), from the VP on down, were laid off.
- Meridian 59's development team actually expanded during these layoffs.
- Incorrect
- Early in 1997, having left 3DO, Steve and Mike Sellers and John Hanke formed their next startup, The Big Network, which was acquired in 1999 by eUniverse.
- Steve Sellers went on to be the COO of a company not in the games industry.
- John Hanke went on to be CEO of Keyhole, now part of Google.
- Mike Sellers went on to be a Senior Designer at Electronic Arts, and now is CEO of Online Alchemy.
- Partly True. The facts:
The facts remain:
- Andrew and Chris Kirmse wrote the client-server and scripting engine for this game
- Mike and Steve Sellers formed Terra Nova Interactive in 1994 to create "Meridian" (later called Meridian 59 at Chris Kirmse's insistance that it had to have a number in the title).
- The Kirmses were hired by the Sellers and were employees of Terra Nova Interactive, which later became Archetype Interactive, well after the project was under way, and primarily for their client-server technology. They were awarded stock in the company but had no management role (despite being called "project leads")
- The Kirmses had little role in designing the game, either before or after the acquisition by 3DO
- The design of M59 was originally done by Mike Sellers, later joined by Damion Schubert. Damion did a large share of the low-level design, while Mike focused on user interface, story, systems, and world layout. Many others contributed to the art and world layout.
- Steve (CEO) and Mike Sellers (President), along with John Hanke (VP Marketing and biz dev), were co-responsible for the management of the company and the project from day-to-day issues involving technology, art, design, and production, all the way up to funding and the acquisition of the company.
- Andrew and Chris Kirmse had no role in the acquisition discussions with 3DO. The figure cited elsewhere that Archetype was bought for $5M in stock is incorrect. The actual price was between $7-8M, but, being a stock-swap deal, fluctuated with 3DO's stock price.
[edit] Release date
I found two launch times from 1996:
- September 16 or 17
- September 27
My guess is that the game officially ended its beta phase on Sept. 16 or 17, but didn't ship until the 27th (and therefore the 27th would be the most relevant date). I know this is all pedantic, but since I've already bothered to look I might as well post what I found. --Mrwojo 19:26, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- I agree. I think I based the Sept. 16th date that I put in the article off of the NDS site and some old 3DO press releases, but just looking at your points here convinces me the game was more likely released September 27th. Nice work. - user:defunkt 21:50, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Necessary clarification of spell schools
In this section, "Players choose from seven skill/spell schools, six of which are based on patron gods in the game world's mythos: Weaponcraft, Shal'ille, Qor, Kraanan, Faren, Riija, and Jala. Each school has a different focus and application in gameplay." it says "six of which," while seven things are listed, although weaponcraft doesn't seem like it fits. Please correct this misunderstanding.--Notmyhandle 03:35, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Scepter of Goth and Pirate Communities
Recently, someone attempted to add links that were related to some pirate communities. I've removed the links... and then one of the links were reposted with a more "innocent" name (an unofficial forum), but there are very few posts and activity for the forum to even be worth mentioning in Wikipedia. There was also an addition of a small paragraph claiming that a number of people are searching for pirate servers. Wikipedia is not an advertisement vehicle for pirate communities.
Also, someone claimed that Meridian 59 was based on another game called Scepter of Goth. We'll need proof or citations...
edit: My apologies. I just found the proof of the inspiration. Perhaps a citation will help. Isolocis 00:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- Re: Pirate Communities
Granted this is an encyclopedia, not an advertisement method, pirated servers are none-the-less part of meridian 59 history, and thus should be allowed to be mentioned. Perhaps as a stub with a link to a separate page.
I have re-added my history, and the link to the forums, while not large, are still unoffical meridian 59 forums. If this doesn't satisfy you, i will compromise on leaving just the history part as a stub with a link to a new page, and no link to the unoffical forums. Daenks 05:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
- The following entry is a copyright violation:
"Shortly after 3DO shut the game down on August 31, 2000. A developer of the game leaked the server software and the files for Meridian 59:Renaissance to a player, and since then there has been a thriving community of free-to-play servers."
Because of this, your entry has been deleted. Please don't add it again. Isolocis 03:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- re: The following entry is a copyright violation:
Excuse me. But how is that a copyright violation? It is simply a historic fact. A developer DID release the server software. and there HAS been a thriving renegade community.
Just because the Nazi's massacred millions of jews doesnt mean it isnt history. This is something that has/is happened/happening. How does that information not belong on this webpage? There is a difference between disagreeing with the moral implications of what is posted, and declaring it illegal. That single paragraph does NOT contain any copywritten material, nor links to it. I am going to re-add it, as it is information about the game, Meridian 59.
Daenks 17:18, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Just removed a link to forums.meridian59.net becuase that is a forum dedicated to pirate servers.
Someone keeps replacing the link to a forum related to pirate servers. As I have said, this isn't an advertisement vehicle.
Isolocis 22:32, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Request: I know this has nothing to do with links, but is there any way PC or Moo could fill in the timeline gap between DA and Evolution? Oriumpor (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 04:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Links
The link to Gilroy's site (http://www.gilcon.net/meridian/) is a legitimate site that should remain linked on the page. It's the primary fan site for the game. Psychochild 10:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
A user has been adding in links to a website hosting a pirated version of the software. These links have been removed. They also deleted the external links section and replaced with only their link. This section has been replaced with the information that was previously there. FattyMoo (talk) 13:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
That same user is continuing to add links to the pirate version. His IP is 76.91.235.116, from the change log. What action is required to get an IP blocked? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.56.24.62 (talk) 08:36, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] www.m59online.com/
Near Death Studios founded by a couple of the original developers is still running the game for a fee so I removed references to this obviously pirate server.
- I've killed the advertisement for the pirate server a couple of times as well.
- Looking through the article history I see this phrase :
-
"Shortly after 3DO shut the game down on August 31, 2000. A developer of the game leaked the server software and the files for Meridian 59:Renaissance to a player, and since then there has been a thriving community of free-to-play servers."
- If this could be sourced and was rephrased "a small community of pirate(or illegal) servers." it might belong back in the article. It seems to be both relevant and interesting. And there's no problem on WP talking about copyright violations, so long as we don't link directly to the pirate servers.
