Talk:Mentalism
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Maybe I'm being too literal, and I daresay I wouldn't expect the page on Mentalism to conform to Behaviorist terminology standards (even though it is a different form of Mentalism than the Behaviorists usually contrast their theories with, wouldn't THAT be poetic if it were to conform!), BUT what the hell does "to subliminally manipulate the subject through psychological means" even mean? Examples would be nice, and if anyone does provide examples, I contend even now that they won't best be classified as "psychological" means, but we'll see for sure after they are provided. --Uroshnor 09:04, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Re: "to subliminally manipulate the subject through psychological means" - you will note that, in the context of the entry, this is a method that is presented as an explanation to audiences by performers; not an actual technique. An example might be a performer claiming to force a person to choose a specific word from a book by planting subliminal clues in the environment around them. The choice may actually be forced by another method (to discuss this further in a public forum would be to break the code of magical exposure - and Wikipedia is not "The Masked Magician"). However, the entry does say that Mentalist performers use misdirection, which is in itself a form of psychological manipulation - with a small "p". So, yes, you are being too literal ;) --Mr Twain 10.30, 01 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I would just like to point out that the term mentalist is also British slang for someone with an obvious mental illnes or who othewise behaves eratically or engages in activities that would be considered unwise. e.g. "John's a mentalist, he drove at 100 miles per hour down a busy street".
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[edit] Magic vs. Mentalism
Is it fair to say that a difference between a mentalist and a magician is that a magician will generally admit that he is doing tricks, while mentalists usually insist that they have supernatural (or metaphysical, however you wish to call it) abilities? That's been my (limited) experience. The last mentalist I saw insisted his powers were not illusions and he had psychic/telekenitic abilities. He was pretty convincing too, much more than any magician I've ever seen. Not that I believe him, but I was stymied. -R. fiend 00:23, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I disagree. Maybe some mentalists insist that they actually have supernatural powers, but others-Derren Brown, for instance-insist that they do not. Rayden54 17:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Mentalism and the 'Geist'
"Geist" isn’t a term commonly used in Mentalism. “Mentalism and the 'Geist'” is obviously an advertising to promote Harling & Nyrup´s brand new book "Geist". (see history)
[edit] Mentalist lists.
A series of edits have added an long and unwieldy list of mentalist performers to the body of the text. Several of those mentioned are corporate and Vegas performers - not really "notable" in Wikipedia terms. As an indicator of how arbitrary this list is, Luke Jermay has been removed several times despite the fact that he is now listed as an advisor to Derren Brown on his latest TV series and is well respected in the UK magic community.
It's proven time and time again too easy to secrete advertisments in these lists.
If a performer is notable enough to be included in this list, then they're notable enough to be moved to the "Famous Mentalists" section - otherwise they're just cluttering up the listing. If there's no objection, I will Wikify the list in 30 days time, removing the non-notable and repeated entries and reordering those categorised xenophobically as "England, Europe and elsewhere". Mr Twain 02:38, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I've now made the edit. I've removed mentalists who are "known" primarily for corporate work and those without a significant body of work, moving the remainder to the "Famous Mentalists" list. Mr Twain 10:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
The use of the word 'Geist' (coined by Harling & Nyrup in their book of the same name) is a new term within mentalism,
but the idea that it represents had been previously untitled and made any discussion of same unwieldy and confusing. That it is a new term should not detract from the importance of this; terminology has to begin somewhere, and the writer's focus on the 'Geist' as a method of both misdirection and performance development has contributed much to mentalism itself. 81.145.240.19 10:37, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
What determines famous? This isn't just a list of mentalists, but a list of FAMOUS mentalists. Mentalists and professional magicians who have wiki pages can be found in the category links. A significant contribution to the form, acknowledged from more than one source, surely, should apply to get on this list. Also, when an anonymous editor adds a name to this list and it is the same anonymous editor who founded the bluelinked page, self-promotion becomes an inescapable conclusion. --Kosmoshiva (talk) 13:54, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Merging "Mentalism" and "Mentalist"
I see little or no valid reason for the petition to merge these two entries. A substantial amount of the "mentalist" entry contains material that is not relevant to the "mentalism" entry, discussing, as it does, different meanings of the word. There's also a precedent for keeping the description of a practice separate from the description of practioners. "Stage Magic" and "Magician" both maintain separate entries. Mr Twain 22:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
