Talk:Mensa International/Archive 1

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[edit] Copyright violation?

http://www.mensa.org/info.html This page looks like copy from here! I'm not good at English. Help me please.219.165.169.201 10:15, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I must admit that I cannot see the resemblance. The articles deal with the same subject, but except for that they are quite different. Could you point out what has been copied? If you are User:219.165.169.12, you should add the page to Wikipedia:Possible copyright infringements instead of Wikipedia:Votes for deletion. Rasmus Faber 10:45, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It hasn't been put on VfD. We can either add it to VfD or delete the tag. I think we should delete the tag. Secretlondon 10:49, Jan 19, 2004 (UTC)

I didn't appreciate being led on a wild goose chase to a page where the article wasn't even mentioned, so I have DELETED that tag! --Susurrus 23:44, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I also don't believe that this is a copyright violation. It's clear that the author used the page as a source, and some sentences are verbatim. A brief rewrite would remove any suspicion of copyvio. DJ Clayworth 15:13, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I agree. If the offcial site is the only source, one can fear that facts have not been cross-checked. Apokrif 20:50, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] criticisms

Shouldn't there be a criticisms section or something of that nature? It seems to me the article should at least mention that the society is widely considered to be a joke.

i think it may only be considered a joke by those that fail to be accepted :\ --andrew 20:19, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

How so? If they applied in the first place they clearly don't consider it to be a joke. I think s/he means the population at large, and there's certainly something to be said for that. In academia at least it's frequently ridiculed, and I doubt construction workers or truckers think much higher of it. The way the article is written now, someone unfamiliar with the organization might think it commanded a great deal of respect. --130.126.67.39 23:19, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

If one must add "criticisms", please observe Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and Wikipedia:Verifiability, i.e. quote or refer to publicly available sources, don't just express personal opinions (except in the Talk page of course).

In point of fact, Mensa is a social club which people can join to escape the popular prejudice against intelligence in general. This prejudice ("criticisms" mentioned above) is an important reason the organization exists. It is certainly true that some people take themselves too seriously, both members and "critics" of Mensa. If someone felt it important to mention this, nobody is stopping them. Though I think unsigned criticism speaks for itself.Avt tor 23:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

You state a half-truth. In fact, mensa was created for insecure idiots to get together with other insecure idiots to brag about their intelligence.
Please don't feed the troll. Wikipedia:What is a troll Catbar (Brian Rock) 00:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think, even biased as a Mensan myself, it's out of line to include some criticism if you can cite some as these people have said. It's perhaps debatable whether Mensa being the brunt of many jokes (which is certainly true) necessarily means Mensa is a joke... The biggest reaction Mensa seems to draw is apprehension and confusion about what exactly it does, besides inflating a few egos. Most criticism in this vein is topical and lighthearted, if one were seriously curious, things like the scholarship program and volunteer programs might fit the bill. Rainman420 04:25, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The entry reads like a PR release from the origanization itself. If it is to be useful, the entry should include documented information on Mensa's place in society at large, especialy the widespread criticism and ridicule it engenders. E.M. Gutting

What is more ridiculous, to have a high IQ or to be mad about not having it? Some comments above are rather hilarious.

I'm a university professor, and I have never heard it was ridiculed. All the opposite, it's actually quite well considered for its Research and Journals. Stephen Hawking, one of the most brilliant scientists ever, is a member of Mensa. Of couse, you can make a moke of everything but, could you please cite your sources? Prejudices or personal motivations should be out.

You point out the fact that Stephen Hawkins, "one of the most brilliant scientists ever", is a member of MENSA but so is Asia Carrera, one of the hottest porn star ever. I mean... what is the point of this organisation if it can't make the difference between a genuine genius and people who may be gifted but who have done (and will probably will do) nothing intellectually interresting for mankind? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.120.242.69 (talk • contribs) 20:19, 11 July 2007
I'm not sure if Stephen Hawking is a member - I saw a documentary about him some time ago - it may have been made by BBC - which said that he took the test after an accident falling down stairs because he was worried he'd injured his brain, but made no mention of him joining. The entry on Hawking has a similar account. (Second paragraph of section on his illness.) Autarch 18:07, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I do not know any joke about Mensa. It there any good one? Or are they only produced by lower IQ personnel who failed the test?

I'm a Mensan, too - I'll state that up front. If anyone can document intelligent criticism of Mensa which contributes to an understanding of the group and its place in society, please feel free to add it. I'm sure it exists. Please keep personal opinions out, though, because they are non-NPOV.

I see Wikipedia getting the same treatment as Mensa sometimes. I just read today's CNN/Reuters article on how Wikipedia is "reeling" after its rapidly changing coverage of the information surrounding Kenneth Lay's death. From my perspective as a WikiInsider, I don't think Wikipedia is reeling in any sense. I feel much the same about that article's criticism of Wikipedia as I do about most of the criticism I've seen of Mensa. Those who criticize Wikipedia or Mensa from the outside often don't get the idea of what these groups are about.

Longtime members of Mensa don't band together to be snotty or to impress anyone, but because we share interests, traits and backgrounds that differ from society as a whole. We seek our peers - humans do that instinctively. The Mensa organization does try to impress people. Organizations that don't impress people aren't very effective and they don't tend to last long. Mensa needs to present a good, polished face to the public both for recruitment purposes, and so it doesn't get branded as 'secretive'. It isn't that the organization is trying to brag or lord over people, but it does have to state clearly what its requirements are. Trying to impress does have the opposite effect on some people and often does cause Mensa to get branded as elitist, but seeking out kindred spirits is why many active members belong to Mensa. We have our problems, but it saddens us to see people consider our organization to be a 'joke'. Please try to temper your thoughts of our organization with understanding and kindness. Thanks. Catbar (Brian Rock) 02:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism Redux

You want some criticism of Mensa? Well for a start it is a shamelessly elitist organisation, sanctimoniously lauding itself as being free from political, racial or religious distinction, while at the same time distinguishing itself by the similarly distasteful prejudice of (supposed) intellectual superiority. And as if that isn't enough - the benchmark for membership is grounded in the misguided belief that IQ actually says something about the individual other than his or her ability to solve anagrams and goofy little logic puzzles. Apparently Lancelot Ware was exasperated by the members' preoccupation with puzzle-solving. But is that remotely surprising? If he wished to see Mensans solving some of the world's issues, then perhaps the selection process should be geared to attract those with an interest in sophisticated real-world problems, rather than trivial brain-teasers. Until then, Mensa will be the sole reserve of the intellectually insecure, and the odd mild case of Asperger's. (...and relax...) Beeromatic 15:00, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Why worry about an organization you have so little regard for? Why spend any time on it at all? Just forget Mensa exists and have a good life. Catbar (Brian Rock) 05:34, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the concern, but I'm not all that worried actually. I just have a healthy contempt of elitism. Beeromatic 12:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I am not really sure if it's elitism really? Because Mensa is just a society for people that shares a similiar trait. Please show your source regarding Mensa's claim of "distasteful prejudice of (supposed) intellectual superiority"? in order to join mensa, you just have to fit a criteria. Mensa never state whether it was a good thing or bad thing to fit the criteria. I think for many member, fitting the criteria probably has some painful memories as a child. Mensa never claim superiority over anyone. You perceived that Mensa did, but does not necessarily make it true. Would you consider, say, the Chinese Student Association (CSA) in a North American university a "shamelessly elitist organisation"? Cause... you do have to be a person of Chinese origin to be able to join... I can join because I am a Chinese...you probably can't join because you are not a Chinese... The CSA I was in was great because it's a place where I can meet and social with people that has similiar interest with me. The CSA is not being elitist, nor am I. In order to join Mensa, you just have to be a person that is able to "solve anagrams and goofy little logic puzzles". It's a society where people that enjoy solving anagrams and goofy little logic puzzles can social and meet people with similiar interest. Phatpanda114 22:41, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
the very fact that Mensa charges people to join its establishment should ring some alarm bells. Nowhere in the page does it mention that this is a subscription service. Effectively people pay to be told they are clever. This must also cast doubt on the veracity of claims that applicants must be within the top two percentiles to qualify. I have seen many "tests" in national papers where readers are told that if they can solve the puzzle they are eligible to join Mensa. For anyone with even the most rudimentary grasp of algebra these puzzles are very easy.68.71.35.93 05:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
American Mensa posts the qualifying scores of the most common standardized intelligence test on its web site. If all you want is to think you're clever by qualifying for Mensa, you can do that without sending them a penny. Of course, you don't need Mensa's permission to think you're clever. Jwolfe 08:33, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Why should a membership fee "ring some alarm bells"? Even the Boy Scouts and the Freemasons have annual membership dues ... TANSTAAFL! ... show me social organization that doesn't charge for membership, and I'll show you an organization that doesn't have a Web site or a monthly magazine that's printed in color. (This is just common sense, people!) --141.156.240.102 15:57, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, I suppose if you really wanted to muckrake on Mensa, you could bring up George Trepal the "Mensa Killer." He was apparently a member of Mensa and also a psycopath. For some unknown reason he decided the plain family nextdoor were unfit to live and poisoned them. They died horribly as the poison was not swift. The "American Justice" documentary on him makes a big deal out of the fact he was in Mensa, that he had an incredibly arrogant and elitist outlook and had to be carefully caught, even using a "honey trap" of a woman supposedly in Mensa. He got death row for the murders. If he was trully a member of Mensa in good standing, it really doesnt say too much against Mensa, all groups have their murdering psychopaths. Its like condemning violent videogames for school shooters. The A&E documentary did seem to be pandering to the idea of the "elitist Mensan out to kill the proles" though.Yanqui9 17:23, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I believe it was in Characters and Viewpoints by Orson Scott Card it was suggested that one of the ways to indicate to the reader that a character is a villain is to have them have an obviously higher level of intelligence, the whole mad scientist/Dr. No schtick. There's a common social prejudice against intelligence. One of the reasons people choose to socialize with people in Mensa is to escape that prejudice. Avt tor 22:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Is such a prejudice more related to a particular culture than universal? Autarch 17:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I've certainly read criticism of Mensa. Most of it is pretty lighthearted and focuses on the lack of social skills among members ;-). I dislike puzzle books, but otherwise can't seem to find a reason to dislike Mensa. It just unnerves me when a wikipedia entry doesn't have any criticism at all.

[edit] Mensa SIGs (Special Interest Groups)

The article doesn't seem to be specific enough about Special Interest Groups - I was under the impression they are organised at the level of National Mensas. (I'm an ex-Mensan deliberating whether to join up again after a few years.) Autarch 18:39, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I just touched up SIGs. There are more unofficial and international SIGs than I can count now. Check out Yahoo! Groups, and search for Mensa. We also have a few multinational SIGs where participants come from Mensa Germany, Austria, or Switzerland. samwaltz 19:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Logo

The logo is mentioned in the article, would it be possible to get a copy of the logo and place it at the top of the page? That ought to qualify as fair use. Kerowyn 00:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] British Mensa and Digestive Biscuits

I once attempted to ask the British Mensa what, exactly, the purpose of a digestive biscuit was. More importantly, what are they, what flavors, if any, are they available in, and why are they seemingly so popular with Brits? I filled out much of the question submission form, until I realized that giving up my telephone number and house address would be necessary. So please, if anyone does know what a digestive biscuit is, would you please email your answer to dog_luver3719@yahoo.com. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.181.198.98 (talk • contribs) .

I'm not sure just what that has to do with Mensa, or with Wikipedia for that matter. *Dan T.* 03:33, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't see the Mensa connection either, but Wikipedia does have an article about digestive biscuits. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.142.215.52 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] IQ doesn't change with age?

It states in the article as a flatout fact that IQ does not change with age. I thought this was controversial. There is a lot of debate over what IQ even is. --Bluejay Young 22:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I read in Intelligence: a very short introduction by Ian Deary that you are compared with your age peers - thus it's constant within your group of peers, as I understand it. Autarch 16:46, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Instead of debating this here, can we just ignore the topic, and recommend that readers go to the I.Q. page? Along the lines of in the top 2% of I.Q., although there is still little consensus as to what I.Q. is, how it can be accurately measured, or whether it is retained over time.' That really is a matter to be discussed there, and then there would be no necessity of repeating the argument elsewhere. samwaltz 18:36, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Family Guy

I'm pretty sure that Peter Griffin does not take a mensa test but is applying for a MacArthor Fellows Grant. link title

[edit] Cut from the article

I moved the following paragraph from the article: it's important and needs to be read, but here, on the talk page:

(Please note that Sharon Stone has denied on numerous occasions being a member and US Mensa has been unable to verify that she ever was a member. Please do not add her back to the list of famous Mensans. Take her word for it (and US Mensa's word) that she was not a member.) (added by User:Postcard Cathy)

For what it's worth, this is my understanding as well--Sharon Stone isn't a member. Antandrus (talk) 14:58, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] -ize/-ise

Was changing "standardize" and "organization" to "standardise" and "organisation" really necessary? Yes, the group was formed in the UK, however 50K members are in the US, whereas 25K members are in the UK. As such, either usage seems appropriate. samwaltz 15:07, 10 July 2006 (UTC)