Talk:Menomonee River Valley, Milwaukee
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[edit] Menomonee Valley
(This discussion - through 18:56, 6 December 2006 - has been copied from a user talk page in order for other editors to be aware of it more easily.)
Hello, I'm curious why you choose to move the article for Menomonee Valley to Menomonee River Valley, Milwaukee? Menomonee Valley is the common and proper name for the valley, and as far as I can tell, there are no valleys competiting for the name space to warrant appending Milwaukee to it. Thanks 72.131.44.247 00:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- I realize the potential confusion, but the article is about a specific neighborhood in Milwaukee, rather than about the entire river's environs; articles related to the entire river should link to Menomonee River instead. Also, I noted that the Milwaukee Neighborhood Identification ProjectPDF gives the neighborhood name as Menomonee River Valley, rather than simply Menomonee Valley. MisfitToys 02:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- I must say that I strongly disagree with this move. Although I had added the article to the neighborhood category (because the land is plotted on the map along with other large plats such as Mitchell Airport) the valley is a distinct and independent land formation, and the article was written as such. Please see Category:Valleys of the United States. The majority of references to the valley that I have encountered all refer to it as the Menomonee Valley (including the associations listed in the external link section and ye 'ole Google test), with Menomonee River Valley being second runner up. The datum for the Neighborhood Identification Project is also quite arbitrary. A good example of this are the exploded boundaries of Bay View. 72.131.44.247 03:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- On the other hand, it must be noted that while there is a Conejo Valley and an Imperial Valley, there is no Conejo River or Imperial River; those valleys are unrelated to specific waterways sharing the same name, which is not the case here. The alternative is to have separate articles for the neighborhood and the entire valley, which I think would be even more confusing. I can't speak to whether Milwaukee's standards for the neighborhood boundaries were arbitrary, though they are clearly officially recognized. In any event, the Menomonee River article describes it as a river in Milwaukee, so including Milwaukee in the title here shouldn't be problematic. MisfitToys 03:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- I don't understand why not having a river associated with it would change its name on Wikipedia? There is no namespace clash or confusion that would warrant the move, especially one that appends 'Milwaukee' to it as would be needed to make room for a disambig page. The Menomonee Valley is noted on the Milwaukee Neighborhood Identification Project map only because it fills space (just as the afore mentioned airport and Jones Island)), and not because it is considered a neighborhood of sorts. It is a large geographical land formation. Thanks. 72.131.44.247 05:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- I think you misunderstood me; I simply meant to indicate that in most cases, there's no reason for a river's valley to have an article of its own, as linking to the article for the river is generally sufficient. (Ohio Valley, for instance, redirects to Ohio River.) That's why many of the articles in the category for valleys are for those with no single corresponding river (e.g. California Central Valley). Again, nearly all of the material in the article pertains to a small industrial section of the valley (in the news today due to an explosion), rather than the entire length, which includes residential areas as well in its more northern sections. The neighborhood certainly warrants an article (and would eventually have one anyway), as does the river itself; would it make sense to have three separate articles for (1) Menomonee River, (2) Menomonee Valley, and (3) Menomonee River Valley, Milwaukee (which is clearly the correct title for the neighborhood, in keeping with title formatting standards for neighborhoods)? As I indicated earlier, material relating to the valley outside the specific neighborhood should link to the article for the river itself. I'm puzzled as to why you believe the Neighborhood Identification Project didn't intend it to be regarded as an actual neighborhood, even though it's identified on the map in the same manner as all other neighborhoods; certainly they could have left blank areas (as some cities do) for regions which have no identification (neighborhoods need not be residential; there are also industrial neighborhoods). You might try going to Milwaukee's My Milwaukee Home page and entering the address 3001 W. Canal St. (or 1651 W. Pittsburgh Ave.); the resulting form identifies Menomonee River Valley as the neighborhood. I'm going to place this discussion on the article's talk page so that any interested parties can be more aware of it. MisfitToys 18:56, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- The Menomonee Valley is certainly notable enough to warrant a separate article from the river... as I have stated before it is a very large and distinct geological formation. People distinguish between the Menomonee River and the Menomonee Valley as separate entities. I honestly don't feel there should be a separate article for some residential neighborhood as there really isn't one. The entire valley is a heavily industrialized zone. Depending on where one might draw boundaries there may be a few houses along a border. This fact and other historical tidbits could easily be written in to the current article. Either way, I still don’t understand why the article was moved as if the title needed correcting from "Menomonee Valley" and disambiguating by appending the city name to it. Is there some WP guideline I am not familiar with that requires all articles for places designated as municipal neighborhoods to have this nomenclature? I also question why Jones Island was also moved in this manner. I am sure we can both agree that neither Silicon Valley or Ellis Island should have this treatment applied to them. If you really feel there should be a separate neighborhood article, then write one if you must, but I would hope that the current articles for the valley and Jones Island are moved back to where they were. Is there a WP community page I might list these articles on for consideration by other editors? ie: 'Articles for...' ? Thanks for your time! 72.131.44.247
- Well as you'll note, I didn't say the neighborhood was residential; quite the opposite. And I also stated that the article for the river itself is, and should be, separate. The river flows through Hoyt Park and Currie Park, as well as at least one golf course, so its entire valley must not be industrial. Again, naming conventions are that neighborhood articles should include the city name (see Category:Chicago neighborhoods, among others). Jones Island was moved for this reason, and also to help clarify that it is not an actual island (though it was one in the past). Of course, neither Silicon Valley nor Ellis Island are neighborhoods (and there's certainly no Silicon River). I'm really puzzled at this point; 90% of the article is about the specific industrial area (i.e. the neighborhood), with the exception of the intro's line about glacial meltwater and the short section about early settlers. It seems to me that the article is already about the neighborhood rather than the landform, so why do you think it's primarily about geology? MisfitToys 01:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
- The Menomonee Valley is certainly notable enough to warrant a separate article from the river... as I have stated before it is a very large and distinct geological formation. People distinguish between the Menomonee River and the Menomonee Valley as separate entities. I honestly don't feel there should be a separate article for some residential neighborhood as there really isn't one. The entire valley is a heavily industrialized zone. Depending on where one might draw boundaries there may be a few houses along a border. This fact and other historical tidbits could easily be written in to the current article. Either way, I still don’t understand why the article was moved as if the title needed correcting from "Menomonee Valley" and disambiguating by appending the city name to it. Is there some WP guideline I am not familiar with that requires all articles for places designated as municipal neighborhoods to have this nomenclature? I also question why Jones Island was also moved in this manner. I am sure we can both agree that neither Silicon Valley or Ellis Island should have this treatment applied to them. If you really feel there should be a separate neighborhood article, then write one if you must, but I would hope that the current articles for the valley and Jones Island are moved back to where they were. Is there a WP community page I might list these articles on for consideration by other editors? ie: 'Articles for...' ? Thanks for your time! 72.131.44.247
- I think you misunderstood me; I simply meant to indicate that in most cases, there's no reason for a river's valley to have an article of its own, as linking to the article for the river is generally sufficient. (Ohio Valley, for instance, redirects to Ohio River.) That's why many of the articles in the category for valleys are for those with no single corresponding river (e.g. California Central Valley). Again, nearly all of the material in the article pertains to a small industrial section of the valley (in the news today due to an explosion), rather than the entire length, which includes residential areas as well in its more northern sections. The neighborhood certainly warrants an article (and would eventually have one anyway), as does the river itself; would it make sense to have three separate articles for (1) Menomonee River, (2) Menomonee Valley, and (3) Menomonee River Valley, Milwaukee (which is clearly the correct title for the neighborhood, in keeping with title formatting standards for neighborhoods)? As I indicated earlier, material relating to the valley outside the specific neighborhood should link to the article for the river itself. I'm puzzled as to why you believe the Neighborhood Identification Project didn't intend it to be regarded as an actual neighborhood, even though it's identified on the map in the same manner as all other neighborhoods; certainly they could have left blank areas (as some cities do) for regions which have no identification (neighborhoods need not be residential; there are also industrial neighborhoods). You might try going to Milwaukee's My Milwaukee Home page and entering the address 3001 W. Canal St. (or 1651 W. Pittsburgh Ave.); the resulting form identifies Menomonee River Valley as the neighborhood. I'm going to place this discussion on the article's talk page so that any interested parties can be more aware of it. MisfitToys 18:56, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- I don't understand why not having a river associated with it would change its name on Wikipedia? There is no namespace clash or confusion that would warrant the move, especially one that appends 'Milwaukee' to it as would be needed to make room for a disambig page. The Menomonee Valley is noted on the Milwaukee Neighborhood Identification Project map only because it fills space (just as the afore mentioned airport and Jones Island)), and not because it is considered a neighborhood of sorts. It is a large geographical land formation. Thanks. 72.131.44.247 05:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- On the other hand, it must be noted that while there is a Conejo Valley and an Imperial Valley, there is no Conejo River or Imperial River; those valleys are unrelated to specific waterways sharing the same name, which is not the case here. The alternative is to have separate articles for the neighborhood and the entire valley, which I think would be even more confusing. I can't speak to whether Milwaukee's standards for the neighborhood boundaries were arbitrary, though they are clearly officially recognized. In any event, the Menomonee River article describes it as a river in Milwaukee, so including Milwaukee in the title here shouldn't be problematic. MisfitToys 03:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- I must say that I strongly disagree with this move. Although I had added the article to the neighborhood category (because the land is plotted on the map along with other large plats such as Mitchell Airport) the valley is a distinct and independent land formation, and the article was written as such. Please see Category:Valleys of the United States. The majority of references to the valley that I have encountered all refer to it as the Menomonee Valley (including the associations listed in the external link section and ye 'ole Google test), with Menomonee River Valley being second runner up. The datum for the Neighborhood Identification Project is also quite arbitrary. A good example of this are the exploded boundaries of Bay View. 72.131.44.247 03:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
The article is about a unique geological area, its history, and the role it played in the growth of a city due to its features and location, because that is how I wrote it based on historian John Gurda's paper. The same can be said for Jones Island, a land mass that sits at the mouth of one of the largest ports on Lake Michigan, and how it came to form the inner and outer harbor. The Menomonee Valley and Jones Island may be industrial "neighborhoods" (just as the airport is found on that map) but they are also much more than that. And rewriting the intro as you have since done won't change this. They are notorious enough to not have been renamed as such, certainly with out prior discussion. Even if they were just "neighborhoods" I see no reason to have needed to move them and re-brand the name of the valley on every article that links to it. Note how all of the news media have been referring to the recent accident at the Falk complex in the "Menomonee Valley" or down in "the valley." If it had been on some street corner in the Bronzeville neighborhood there would not be such a distinction made. I'll wait a few days to see if any other Milwaukeeans care to chime in, and then solicit input from the wider community. 72.131.44.247 17:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think the naming convention is really relevant here (and it's rather a silly convention, anyway, for neighborhood names which are unlikely to be repeated the way, say, "East Side" is. This is a real neighborhood, just not one with a large population nowadays. I strongly support reverting to the more natural form, the one people would naturally look for (I think there's a Wiki rule suggesting that; something about minimal surprise or something?), and that's plain old Menomonee Valley! --Orange Mike 17:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
