Talk:Mengistu Haile Mariam

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Contents

[edit] Genocide

It should be mentioned that he was found guilty of "genocide" in absentia by the new Addis Abba regime, which is very hostile to him. He wasn't able to defend himself, and it was basically a kangaroo court. There was no genocide in Ethiopia. A genocide is defined as 'the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group'. That didn't happen in Ethiopia. No group was exterminated. A 1,000 or so people were killed, that's not a genocide. Let's be NPOV. Redflagflying 17:19, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

As a person who was resident in Addis Ababa at the time, I can assure you that the number of dead in the capital city alone was many times that number. Other cities such as Gondar, Dessie, Asmara, Dire Dawa, Akaki, all had blood baths as well. Mengistu may not have carried out ethnic or religious based genocide, but anyone who was suspected of belonging to a political grouping that was opposed to him was brutally hunted down and killed, his or her body left in the street in public display, and family members made to pay the price of the bullets to claim the bodies. It is not just the new "Addis Ababa regime" who is very hostile to this man, but many of the current government's opponents as well.
You're right in that he wasn't actually guilty of genocide - it was democide (he didn't target a particular ethnic group but rather political groups, hence the name "Red Terror."). The number is nowhere near as low as 1,000; it's more like 1 million to 1.5 million. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 09:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Most definitions of 'genocide' cover political and cultural groups, and certainly the legal definition under which he was convicted does. He was found guilty of genocide, whether or not you think that was fair, and whatever linguistic quibbles you may have ith that. Moreover, please let's not use the definition of NPOV to get into holocaust denial. Every reliable source lists the deaths for which Mengistu was responsible as at least "tens of thousands". I will add references to the article. -- TinaSparkle 12:03, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Who determines what is and what isn't a reliable source? You apparently. It's clear that media owned by millionaires will be hostile to those who seek to seize their wealth and redistribute it. I guess you'd like to ignore that. There's no "Holocaust denial" here. Even comparing the events in Ethiopia with the Holocaust shows how ridiculous your argument is. The Dergue government in Ethiopia fought to END tribalism. It didn't persecute anyone for their tribal affiliation or ethnicity. What it did do was fight people who were working (many times with outside support) to overthrow it. Guess what, no matter where you are in the world, if you take up guns against the government, you're subject to being killed. The U.S. government wiped out the Black Panthers, killing many. I don't see anything about "genocide" by them here. Why not? Why the double standard? There's no "linguistic quable". Let's deal with facts, and not take on a post-modernist outlook. The definition of "genocide" according to the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, is: "the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group." No national, racial, political or cultural group was exterminated in Ethiopia. The groups that opposed the Dergue are IN POWER NOW IN ADDIS ABBA, so how could they have been "exterminated"?? What happened in Ethiopia was a revolution, not a genocide. It's important to make a distinction. "A revolution is bloody. Revolution is hostile. Revolution knows no compromise. Revolution overturns and destroys everything that gets in its way." - Malcolm X Redflagflying 23:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
As someone who has seen too much commie-bashing and the rewriting of history in favour of the victors (who, in this case are certainly not the reds), I wanted to see if I could support Redflagflying. Unfortunately, even Chomsky doesn't have any kind words for Mengistu, calling him a "miserable tyrant and a gangster" (in Deterring Democracy, Ch.1). Sorry. Saamah 23:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Oh, and for those who are not aware, he was found guilt by 2 of 3 judges. So even the kangaroo court didn't entirely agree about "genocide". 33.3% knew it wasn't genocide. And these are people completely hostile to Mengistu and the Dergue. What does that say? Redflagflying 01:43, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Please calm down, Redflagflying. This has nothing to do with Malcolm X or the US govt. The reason there is nothing about the US govt's attitude to the Black Panthers here is because this is a page about Mengistu. I have no intention of challenging your opinions, bearing in mind that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a discussion forum. To deal with a couple of your relevant points:

  1. We may all determine what is and what isn't a reliable source. There's a Wikipedia page on it if you require clarification: see WP:RS.
  2. There is no need to get into the question of what genocide is defined as in a dictionary. The point that should be listed in the article is that Mengistu has been convicted of genocide under Ethiopian law. I am fairly confident in asserting that Ethiopian law does not take its definition of genocide from Random House. You may or may not believe that the conviction is just: that is your concern and has nothing to do with Wikipedia. If you have reliable sources which assert that the trial was unjust, by all means add that to the article, with references.
  3. I am advocating NPOV and reliable sources. This has nothing to do with a postmodernist approach: it is encyclopedic. NPOV and reliable sources are generally accepted principles of the Wikipedian community.
  4. I didn't compare Mengistu's genocide with "the Holocaust". I described it as a holocaust. Feel free to look this up in a dictionary, if you've still got one to hand: it simply means a massive slaughter. Even if you only believe that Mengistu is responsible for 1,000 deaths, I would count that as massive.

I would also respectfully recommend that you have a look at What Wikipedia is not, particularly the bits about original thought, soapboxes, and anarchy. -- TinaSparkle 20:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No title

There is nothing to support the allegation that Mengistu Haile Mariam's mother was a household servant. Indeed, there have been published accounts in the aftermath of the fall of the Derg regime, that Mengistu's mother may well have been the illegitimate daughter of a high ranking Crown Councilor and nobleman, Dejazmatch Kebede Tessema, allegedly born from a brief dalliance with a personal attending slave girl of Empress Zauditu. Allegations that Mengistu was the Dejazmatch's son have been publicly denied by both the nobleman's family, and by Mengistu himself, but allegations that he is the Dejazmatch's grandson have been pointedly avoided by all parties. What is especially interesting in this, is that Dejazmatch Kebede Tessema was generally believed to be an illegitimate son of Emperor Menelik II, although the Emperor never claimed him as such, nor did the Dejazmatch publicly claim to be his son. Rumors and innuendo (both published and unpublished) asside, there is no published or verbal basis for the allegation that Mengistu's mother was a domestic servant in any capacity. Dejazmatch Kebede Tessema, along with Ras Imiru, was the one of only two Crown Councilors to avoid execution or imprisonment, and continued to recieve their pensions, after the fall of the monarchy in 1974.

I have added a citation from Paul B. Henze, who was the US Ambassador to Ethiopia & was quite familiar with Mengistu. In one point in his Layers of Time, he comments that Mengistu's illustrious parentage was a popular rumor in Addis Ababa -- but I can't find the reference at this moment. (Although on p. 316, he refers to Kassa Kebbede, Dejazmach Kebede Tessema's son, as "Mengistu's putative half-brother", & in a footnote offers enough detail to show that the two were quite close as children. -- llywrch 23:43, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rank

Didn't Mengistu continue to be referred to as "Lieutenant Colonel" or some such even while exercising power as military dictator, a la Nasser and Qadafi? Ellsworth 01:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Mariam wasn't a "military dictator". Redflagflying 17:19, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History of rise to power

this article doesnt contain much about his rise to power or his plot in the murder of the King of Kings. DId he get married does he have children all of these things should be included. As it stands it is very "gappy" --86.132.117.250 22:45, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Haile Sellasie's murder

Isn't it just a rumor that Mengistu ordered Sellasie's death? That's what I've been reading for a while.

Given his dealings with others (Tafari Benti, Aman Mikael Andom and the other scores of leaders that died that day, etc.), I would be very surprised if he didn't order his death. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 06:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but it's still not proven. Would an 'allegedly' hurt? --67.170.128.204 05:30, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I've looked at this again: there's now a footnote to a piece in the International Herald Tribune, which has referred to the allegations that Mengistu might have murdered Selassie (the IHT goes so far as to say he might have done the job himself). I hope the form of words in the Wikipedia article is such that it is now obvious these are allegations rather than proven facts. -- TinaSparkle 13:42, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Eye witness reports from members of the Emperor's household who were present on the night of his death leave little doubt that Emperor Haile Selassie was murdered on the night of August 27, 1975. The court testimony of the Emperor's two valets given in court, as well as the testimony of the Emperor's physician Professor Asrat Woldeyes (incidentally a bitter foe of the Post-Mengistu regime and himself a prisoner of the EPRDF government at the time) confirm this.

[edit] requested photo for the article

[edit] NPOV, copyedit, etc

I've just done a NPOV and copyedit of this article, and cut down the extremely overlong family history section. The article remains seriously unbalanced and requires much more information (properly referenced) on Mengistu's career. His family background is of little interest to an encyclopedia entry beyond a very brief mention, and anyway it seems to be highly controversial and largely based on rumour. -- TinaSparkle 18:45, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] date of birth

According to Mengistu's BBC profile, he was born "in 1937 in Walayitta, Ethiopia", not in '41. Doldrums 17:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

also confirmed by Britannica, Columbia encyclopedia, MSN Encarta. Doldrums 17:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Then you should change it, no ? RaveenS 18:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
One of the English sources claiming he may have been born in 1941 is [1]. I suggest us to mention both dates. Cmapm 18:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
how about changing it to '37 (as "better" sourced) and retaining the '41 in a footnote or in brackets? Doldrums 20:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
You have my agreement :-))RaveenS 21:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I think, there's no matter, whether brackets or a footnote. As to contents of brackets/footnote, in my opinion there should be something like "May, 1941 in Addis Ababa" or "May 21 or May 27, 1941 in Addis Ababa". Cmapm 23:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Communism?

The article section on Mengitsu and communism doesn't really talk about how his practices were influenced by communism or even Leninism. The title ought to be changed or the section ought to reflect the title.

Mengistu and the Derg were not true communists. Not until the mid-1980s was a civilian government actually established. Even when the Workers Party assumed power its leadership was dominated by the military and police. Mengistu's government was a standard military government that dressed up as communist in order to draw assistance from the USSR and the socialist bloc. Jacob Peters

[edit] Dubious information

During this period, tens of thousands of Mengistu's political opponents disappeared. Mengistu has subsequently been tried and convicted for genocide for his role in these disappearances

This is unsubstantiated and lacks perspective. The Library of Congress study shows 5000 deaths between 1977-78. Moreover, these deaths occurred because forces sympathetic to the terrorist "Ethiopian People's Revolutionary Party" got a hold of weapons:

Many civilians he armed were EPRP sympathizers rather than supporters of MEISON or the Derg. Between early 1977 and late 1978, roughly 5,000 people were killed. In the process, the Derg became estranged from civilian groups, including MEISON. By early 1979, Abyot Seded stood alone as the only officially recognized political organization; the others were branded enemies of the revolution.

copy and paste: http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+et0145) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.110.138.95 (talk) 22:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC).

The Library of Congress is wrong on this point. The data points to far more than 5000 deaths; basically every other source I've read refers to tens of thousands being killed. EPRP was enemy number one to the Derg—it would make no sense for Mengistu to arm their civilian sympathizers. After EPRP was crushed was when the Derg turned on MEISON. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 01:09, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Yom, which sources are these? What figure does Amnesty International (or similar groups) provide? -- llywrch 23:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Amnesty International is a politically motivated group and has no credibility. The Library of Congress study is based on all major scholarly works. According to it, 5000 people were killed in 1977-78. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.105.31.123 (talk • contribs)

The best way to go about this in the article is to rewrite the section to indicate that there is a difference in data coming from different sources. Ie, say "While the LOC says this, Amnesty Intl says this..." and so on rather than us trying to figure out which data is more or less correct. We are not the judges. If there is a controversy around the data in question, then that controversy should be discussed in the article. --Strothra 00:59, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, your favorite agitprop from reactionary outlets like Front Page Magazine and the Heritage Foundation do not qualify as valid, scholarly sources. There is much misinformation passed around of Mengistu's alleged responsibility of famine. Yet, the very impartial Library of Congress study which derives its material from all relevant scholarly sources shows that famine had been a habitual problem for Ethiopia. Jacob Peters

[edit] Discover the networks

Discoverthenetworks is not a reliable source per WP:RS - it does not have Editorial oversight, Replicability, it is rarely Corroborated, and it is never granted Recognition by other reliable sources. Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The website is well sourced, chek out all the footnotes it gives to other sources; who made you God to summarily declare that all information that disagrees with your political stance is inadmissible? You have no authotiry to do so, and you have now reverted 4 times to whitewash a mass murderer. he may still be alive, but he is still a mass murderer that you are covering for, Jacob. These facts all came up at his trial, are well documented, and any attempts to whitewash them WILL BE RESISTED for the sake of those who died. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 14:50, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Can you provide a reliable source for the fact that is source unreliably? Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
The source already provided is reliable, and you have no authority to say it isn't. They have clearly done their homework, they are not just making random allegations, every word they say is sourced to primary sources so they are a secondary source. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Could we just source this one to the primary sources, please? Hipocrite - «Talk» 15:09, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I have not seen any reason for anyone to believe the information on this website is not reliable, other than "BECAUSE YOU SAY SO". That's not good enough. There has to be some reason why we should not trust this info besides the fact that it disagrees with you politically. Going across wikipedia summarily blanking out cited information and claimign it is "unreliable" for the sake of your political persuasion is not neutral, and in my opinion, this is reprehensible behaviour. Again, the website in question proves its reliability by stating exactly where they got all of their information, just like we do, a anyone can see by clicking on the page at http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2067. Your behaviour needs to be brought to the attention of higher authorities. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I'd really appreciate it if you stopped assuming bad faith with regards to my motives, thanks. I see no other verification of the highschooler claim. Could you find some? Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Here's one. How many more would you like? Or is the Jerusalem Times now "unreliable" too? http://www.ethioguide.com/aa-ethioguide/ethioguide/Look%20Back/Mengistu_africas_worst_Jeru_Post.htm
ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:19, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for providing a reliable source. Please request unprotection of the article. Do not insert content sourced to unreliable sources in the future, and, please, in the future, remember to remain Civil, avoid Wikilawyering, Wikistalking and Assume Good Faith. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:25, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Don't talk to me like you're my parent. All I know about you is your username personal attacks removed Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC). I don't need you to tell me what to do. And I still dispute your declaration from on high that this DTN website is unreliable, because that is purely politically motivated and you know it. Again, your behaviour in trying to erase it from this encyclopedia is reprehensible. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Calm talk, and a note on sources

Please, everyone, calm down. I have added a dove template at the top of this page. Bearing in mind the the controversial nature of this article, it must be sourced from formal published sources only. Wikipedia has a good article on how to determine this: WP:RS. Discover the Networks may be an interesting site but it doesn't meet these criteria. Sorry.

Often, this article is changed to give the impression that charges of genocide against Mengistu are unsubstantiated, without proper evidence. On other occasions, allegations are added against him, also without proper evidence. Please try to remember, whatever side of the debate you're on, that Wikipedia is not a soapbox. It is of no concern to us here whether anyone is good or bad, guilty or innocent.

If you can't keep a cool head about Mengistu, you should not be writing about him for an encyclopedia. A more appropriate place to air your views might be a blog or an Ethiopian discussion forum. -- TinaSparkle 17:18, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name?

How is "Mengistu" pronounced? Josh 22:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

With a hard G as in goose. The i is short as in hit. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 03:48, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Indeed so. But it's a good point, Josh. Can anyone do the IPA for Mengistu Haile Mariam, once the page is unblocked? I think it should be as follows but I'm still getting used to how to use the IPA, plus my pronunciation of Ethiopian names may be less than perfect. Someone should definitely double-check this before posting it: mɛnˈɡɪs.tuː ˈhaɪ.leɪ ˈmɑːɹɪ.æm -- TinaSparkle 13:04, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Close, but not exact. I do know how to pronounce it (I happen to be an Amharic teacher), but I don't have a 100% perfect knowledge of IPA. Some very minor things that seem to be wrong: 1) There is no accent on syllables in Amharic as there is in English. So it doesn't matter if one says men-GIS-tu or MEN-gis-tu or even men-gis-TU, all are acceptable because no attention is paid to this. (There are certain consonants that are stressed (or "geminated") as opposed to vowels, but none happen to be in his name...) 2) The e in Haile is the exactly same vowel sound as the e in Mengistu, it is actually halfway between the e in 'jest' and the u in 'just'. 3) The two a's in Mariam and the a in Haile are all the same vowel sound, long a as in father. 4) The r in Amharic is a flap almost like d, but I think the upside down r you have is a very weak r like French r. 5) 'Mariam' is actually 'Maryam', that is a consonant ya- as opposed to a vowel i as you have written. For that matter, Haile is actually Hayle, and there is even a very slight schwa between the y and l.
These are all very minor points, but on this basis I would amend your proposal to something like: mɛngəstuː hɑjəlɛ mɑːʀjɑm but again I am not sure what all of the IPA diacritics are... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 13:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Not minor points at all! Thanks very much for this - wonderful to have it from someone with a proper knowledge of Amharic. I was going on English-language news reports, which probably explains some of my mistakes. If you don't mind, I'll add your IPA rendering of the name to the article when it comes off full protection. Or you can do it yourself, of course. -- TinaSparkle 16:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I added the correct IPA. I'm not sure how it treats vowel length (i.e. how long is considered long), so I didn't include it, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be considered long. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 00:13, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trial

Amnesty International estimates that a total of half a million people were killed during the Red Terror of 1977 and 1978

This does not pertain to the trial. Mengistu was not charged for killing half a million people. He was charged for killing 2000 people. Had there been sufficient evidence showing that Mengistu was responsible for half a million people killed, then it surely would have been presented by the biased court.

Not necessarily. Mengistu's trial seems to have been modeled at least to some extent after Saddam Hussein's trial that immediately preceded it. In that trial, they had a basket full of 5,000 accusations against the man for all his evil deeds in Iraq. He was convicted of crimes against humanity on the strength of only the first of these, without even having to get into the biggest ones. That was an incident where he only had about 120 dissidents killed. Of course in the gassing of Halabja that he was also responsible for, some 7000 Iraqi Kurdish people perished, but as I said, the trial didn't even have to go that far. The very first incident considered, the incident at Dujail was enough to convict him. I don't really know the details of Mengistu's trial, but it may have been a similar case where he was charged with killing "only" 2000 people because that's all they needed to prove he is a mass murderer. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 03:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Foreign relations

There isn't much (anything, actually) in this article on Mengistu's foreign policies and foreign relationships. The U.S. was luke warm on him for a while, then turned hostile to him under Reagan, as I understand. Also he had some good allies among African leaders, and a few who did not particularly like him. Live Aid should also probably be worked in, given what a huge event that was--and all for Ethiopia during his leadership. Just some minor suggestions for additions. AfricaEditor 00:08, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you, AfricaEditor. I did add something about Live Aid here a few months back but it disappeared during a phase of POV wars, reflected on this talk page under "Genocide", at the top. It seems odd not to mention the significance of the famine that inspired Live Aid, bearing in mind the international prominence of that story. I am not sure what has been written in the press and in published works about Mengistu's leadership during that period, but I'm sure it would be pertinent to this article to have something about it. I'll look around. -- TinaSparkle 08:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 23:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Biography section

Reads like a fiction not like an encylopedic article about a dead person, that too a former leader of a country. Specualtaion without WP:RS sources that is in a language not neutral. Taprobanus (talk) 23:02, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removed claim

Taken from the article:

Around 1,500,000 Ethiopians were claimed to be the victims of the Derg genocide.<ref>[http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html 1,500,000 Ethiopians killed in the Derg genocide]</ref>

I had a look at the Scaruffi website, & all that it there is an unsourced list of politically-motivated mass murders with unattributed figures. I could find no reason to believe that the figure of 1.5 million victims was plausible, unless we include all of the dead from the 1984-5 famine, the military and civilian dead of the Ogaden War, the military and civilian dead of the Eritrean War of Independence, & the military and civilian dead of the Ethiopian Civil War -- & maybe not even then. No one doubts that many were unjustly killed under Mengistu's rule; but the estimates I have seen point point to a lower number -- about 150,000, a tenth of what this source claims without explanation. -- llywrch (talk) 20:10, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Change of sentence upon appeal

I was under the impression that appeals courts (at least in the United States) were not able to increase the sentencing penalties. I take it this is different in Ethiopia. If someone has more info on the Ethiopian legal system, the section about the appeals court decision would benefit from more contextualizing. (Are such sentencing changes common in Ethiopia?) Also, what was the reason for the increase in the sentence? (Why did the High Court think death was a more appropriate sentence than the life-in-prison verdict from the previous courts?)-- 128.104.112.147 (talk) 22:10, 27 May 2008 (UTC)