User talk:Melromero

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Contents 1 Welcome 2 Agustín Eyzaguirre Arechavala 3 Pinochet 4 Lady Antonia Fraser 5 Request for edit summary 6 War of the Pacific 7 Category sorting 8 Your edit to Disaster of Tucapel 9 Jorge Peña Hen 10 North and South Peru 11 A short Esperanzial update 12 Image:Roberto Viaux.jpg 13 August Esperanza Newsletter 14 Image tagging for Image:Lorca carlos.jpg 15 Biography Newsletter September 2006 16 Welcome! 17 September Esperanza Newsletter 18 Colaboration 19 Image tagging for Image:TomasBurgos.jpg 20 Chile under Pinochet 21 Quintana 22 Image tagging for Image:MENDOZA01.jpg 23 November Esperanza Newsletter 24 WikiProject Former Countries 25 Image tagging for Image:Leteliercar.jpg 26 Chilean people 27 Chilean edits 28 Image tagging for Image:Valentinavargas.jpg 29 Arturo Frei 30 Helping out with the Unassessed Wikipedia Biographies 31 Possibly unfree Image:WesselHorst.jpg 32 Wikiproject Biography March 2007 Newsletter 33 E. C. R. Lorac 34 Invitation to WikiProject Chile 35 DYK 36 The WikiProject Biography Newsletter: Issue II - April 2007 37 Unspecified source for Image:Allende07.jpg 38 Chile city naming convention poll 39 Image:Image:ASantacruz01.jpg 40 landau vs. white 41 License tagging for Image:ManuelRojas1.jpg 42 WikiProject Biography Summer 2007 Assessment Drive 43 Non-free use disputed for Image:Augusto Pinochet Main.jpg 44 Non-free use disputed for Image:Salvador Allende template.jpg 45 Templates and nonfree images 46 Orphaned non-free image (Image:Salvador Allende template.jpg) 47 Image tagging for Image:CaravanDeath.jpg 48 Fair use disputed for Image:PinochetKissinger.jpg 49 Orphaned non-free media (Image:Senado.jpg) 50 Year of launch 51 CNS prefix for Chilean ships? 52 Fair use image problems 53 Image:Augusto Pinochet Main.jpg listed for deletion 54 Image tagging for Image:SFlach.jpg 55 WikiProject Biography Newsletter 5 56 Orphaned non-free media (Image:Dead Chile.jpg) 57 Orphaned non-free media (Image:SFlach.jpg) 58 Francisco Javier Cardinal Errázuriz 59 Did you know (nom) 60 DYK October 20 61 Improper sort keys 62 Replaceable fair use Image:Valentinavargas.jpg 63 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Allende-Castro.jpg 64 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Chile Junta001.jpg 65 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Chile Junta002.jpg 66 Waldo Silva 67 Michelle Bachelet 68 Channel that anger 69 Michelle Bachelet: Negociation 70 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Leteliercar.jpg 71 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Prats03.jpg 72 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Tancazo.jpg 73 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Tanquetazo02.jpg 74 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Robert van gulik.jpg 75 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:DeLaFuente01.jpg 76 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Dartnell.jpg 77 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Grove01.jpg 78 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Grove02.jpg 79 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Junta1973.jpg 80 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:ALarraguibel.jpg 81 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:MENDOZA01.jpg 82 Possibly unfree Image:Carlos_Prats.jpg 83 Image:MonedaBombing.jpg 84 Award 1977 85 About the Covadonga article

[edit] Welcome

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[edit] Agustín Eyzaguirre Arechavala

Hi. You said

The "y" is used in this name in all the history books that include his full name, if not, he is only identified by his paternal last name

I don't know about history books, but the Spanish Wikipedia uses es:Agustín Manuel de Eyzaguirre Arechavala. Diccionario Enciclopédico Santillana uses Eyzaguirre Arechavala, Agustín.

See also Revista Icarito.

• In this case, I recommend you to consult some more authoritative history books than a simple school compilation by a popular newspaper. The "y" particle appears mentioned in among other books the "Historia de Chile" by Francisco Antonio Encina, the "Historia de Chile" by Benjamin Vicuña Mackenna, the "Colección de Documentos para la Historia de Chile" by José Toribio Medina, the "Resumen de la Historia de Chile" by Leopoldo Castedo, and others. The particle "de" is another issue. Most last names related to a "Mayorazgo" indicated so by using the particle "de", in order to point out the family or economic relation. The "y" was used in similar way. I reviewed the use of the "de Eysaguirre" (the use of the "z" was not consistent through the citations) and it seems that the person in question didn't use it, but the issue is still not settled yet. If you have different information I would be very glad to hear it. Mel Romero 20:41, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pinochet

Melromero thanks for your work cleaning up the Pinochet article. It is much tighter now. You have done a very good job.

[edit] Lady Antonia Fraser

Regarding the article on Antonia Fraser, of which you were the first and principal poster: Would you happen to know what she received her degree at Lady Margaret in? Was it history (which might seem obvious) or something else? Thanks! --Michael K. Smith 18:40, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Request for edit summary

Thanks, I will, though what I have been doing so far is just re categorizing the information about Chilean people, without making any substantive changes to the content.Mel Romero 08:04, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

• Hi. I am a bot, and I am writing to you with a request. I would like to ask you, if possible, to use edit summaries a bit more often when you contribute. The reason an edit summary is important is because it allows your fellow contributors to understand what you changed; you can think of it as the "Subject:" line in an email. For your information, your current edit summary usage is 2% for major edits and 6% for minor edits. (Based on the last 150 major and 150 minor edits in the article namespace.)This is just a suggestion, and I hope that I did not appear impolite. You do not need to reply to this message, but if you would like to give me feedback, you can do so at the feedback page. Thank you, and happy edits, Mathbot 08:00, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] War of the Pacific

Hello there! I was just reviewing several articles that are related to this topic, and it would be great if we can share a couple of words and exchange some information before dedicating ourselves to edit in this articles. In this way, by coordinating our efforts, we can improve the quality of the articles and make them free of any POV; that is, that the articles can be read properly and that they are clearly balanced, presenting the common ideas or history that Peruvians, Bolivians and Chileans can have about this war. Cheers! And leave a comment in my talk page any time. Messhermit 12:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

You can get in touch with me in any way that you want. Messhermit 03:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

It would be better if we talk a little bit before creating the articles. That is, sometimes in history, both sides can have a different approach to a single event. Cheers!. Messhermit 12:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category sorting

Hi there. Why have you changed the category sorting pipes on various articles? For example, you changed [[Category:1868 births|Alessandri, Arturo]] to [[Category:1868 births|A]]. The full name is needed in order for the entries to be sorted properly on the category page. Unless there's a reason for these changes, they should be reverted. —Whouk (talk) 11:34, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I've now corrected these article. The relevant help page is Help:Category#Order of the lists; setting sort keys. Thanks. —Whouk (talk) 13:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'll take your reply point by point as I didn't follow it all...

a) If you use the full name of the person, specially when, like in the case of Chilean names, there's a composite last name (meaning, using father and mother's last names, in that order), the lists won't be in alphabetical order. I have tried it several ways, and just putting the first initial of the last name you want the person listed under seems to solve the problem

Could you give me an example of what you mean? For someone like Alberto Blest Gana, the only different between sorting on "Blest Gana" rather than "B" is that instead of appearing at the top of the "B" category he appears between, say, someone called Black and someone called Boone - which is where he should appear.

b) when you reversed the changes made, you eliminated many people from the lists (they were new categories) which will need quite a lot of work to put back together, and also, you disarranged quite a few names from their correct position

I removed some from the category Category:Chilean people, but that was because it was a duplication. If someone is in Category:Chilean generals, they don't need to be in the "people" category too as the generals category is a sub-category of Category:Chilean people by occupation. What do you mean by "disarranged quite a few names from their correct position"? Can you give me an example? —Whouk (talk) 07:43, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, look for example at the two Errazuriz presidents (father and son) - Errazuriz Echaurren should be BEFORE Errazuriz Zañartu since both have the same first name, but using the system that you advocate happens exactly the oppossite. Then check all the other Errazuriz in that list, and you will see what I mean.

I see what you mean. The error here, however, is that one of them has Errazuriz with an accent and the other doesn't. I have added the accent and now they sort correctly. (Incidentally, please wikilink to the articles you're writing about.)

Ok, just a couple of examples for your sake - 1) Francisco de la Lastra should be listed under "L" not under "D", according to common usage for names employing the "de" or "del" or "de la" particle.

That's fine. But the way to fix that is to change the sort from "|de la Lastra, Francisco" to "|Lastra, Francisco de la" (as I have now done), not to reduce it to an L on its own.

3) sub-categories should be just that, special caracteristics, but the possessors should also be listed under "Chilean people" in general, because if not it would be very difficult for people who know are looking for someone but don't their profession to find them, the categorizing should make it easier, not more complex. At least everyone in that list has been arranged that way, if we were to follow the other suggestion, then the list of Chilean people would be empty save for the sub-categories.

And that would be fine, IMHO. See Wikipedia:Categorization#Some general guidelines. Tom Cruise, for example, appears in Category:American film actors, and therefore doesn't appear in Category:American actors or Category:American people. —Whouk (talk) 08:14, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your edit to Disaster of Tucapel

Your recent edit to Disaster of Tucapel was reverted by an automated bot that attempts to recognize and repair vandalism to Wikipedia articles. If the bot reverted a legitimate edit, please accept my humble creator's apologies – if you bring it to the attention of the bot's owner, we may be able to improve its behavior. Click here for frequently asked questions about the bot and this warning. // Tawkerbot2 09:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jorge Peña Hen

Hi. I see that you've added him to a category (no problem there!), BUT you've changed the "n" to "ñ" in the first part of his surname in all the categories. If you look at the history you'll see that I originally had the ñ in the cats. Another user changed it to n and explained why - it messes up the indexing. I've changed one of the cats (Opera composers) back and if you look there you'll see that a) he files correctly between Pashkevitz and Pergolesi and b) the ñ is present (as if by magic - apparently it comes from the article title). Your alteration made him file after Petrella. If you look at the cats that I've not altered back you'll see that he is misfiled. Example: Chilean people, where he should appear after Pavlovic and not at the end of the Pe's after Pezoa Veliz.

I hope this makes sense.--GuillaumeTell 17:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] North and South Peru

Very nice job with the articles on the Nor- and Sud-Peruvian Republics. However, I took the liberty of renaming the articles using the noun form instead of using adjectives. In that process I also rephrased the introduction to each article to avoid repetition, but if you feel that additional forms of the name should be mentioned, do indeed re-add them. Cheers! -- Domino theory 20:30, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A short Esperanzial update

As you may have gathered, discussions have been raging for about a week on the Esperanza talk page as to the future direction of Esperanza. Some of these are still ongoing and warrant more input (such as the idea to scrap the members list altogether). However, some decisions have been made and the charter has hence been amended. See what happened. Basically, the whole leadership has had a reshuffle, so please review the new, improved charter.

As a result, we are electing 4 people this month. They will replace JoanneB and Pschemp and form a new tranche A, serving until December. Elections will begin on 2006-07-02 and last until 2006-07-09. If you wish to run for a Council position, add your name to the list before 2006-07-02. For more details, see Wikipedia:Esperanza/June 2006 elections.

Thanks and kind, Esperanzial regards, —Celestianpower ^háblame 16:00, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Roberto Viaux.jpg

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[edit] August Esperanza Newsletter

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The last AC meeting (full log) In order to make sure all users who join Esperanza are welcomed, a list of volunteers who are willing to welcome new Esperanzians is at Wikipedia:Esperanza/Members#Esperanza_welcomers. Please add yourself if you are interested; we want to make sure all new Esperanza members are welcomed! The In development section of the proposals page has been created. Proposals page: Some proposals have been moved to the aforementioned "In development" section, some have been left as a proposal, and others have been archived. For those proposals that were a good idea but didn't necessarily constitute a program, General Esperanzial Actions has been created. Two small pieces of charter reform will be decided on in a straw poll at Wikipedia talk:Esperanza/Governance. One involves filling the position of any councillors who may leave, the other involves reforming the charter. Until cooperation with the Kindness Campaign is better defined, it remains as a proposed program. There is a page for discussing the front page redesign. Signed... Natalya, Banes, Celestianpower, EWS23, FireFox, Freakofnurture, and Titoxd 05:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Image tagging for Image:Lorca carlos.jpg

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[edit] Biography Newsletter September 2006

The September 2006 issue of the Biography WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. plange 23:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome!

[edit] September Esperanza Newsletter

Program Feature: Barnstar Brigade Here in Wikipedia there are hundreds of wikipedians whose work and efforts go unappreciated. One occasionally comes across editors who have thousands of good edits, but because they may not get around as much as others, their contributions and hard work often go unnoticed. As Esperanzians we can help to make people feel appreciated, be it by some kind words or the awarding of a Barnstar. This is where the Barnstar Brigade comes in. The object of this program is to seek out the people which deserve a Barnstar, and help them feel appreciated. With your help, we can recognize more dedicated editors! What's New? September elections are upon us! Anyone wishing to be a part of the Advisory Council may list themselves as a candidate from 18 September until 24 September, with the voting taking place from 25 September to 30 September. Those who wish to help with the election staff should also list themselves! Appreciation Week, a program currently in development, now has its own subpage! Share your good ideas on how to make it awesome there! The Esperanza front page has been redesigned! Many thanks to all who worked hard on it. Many thanks to MiszaBot, courtesy of Misza13, for delivering the newsletter.

The last AC meeting (full log) The proposals page has been updated, with some proposals being archived. Since the program in development Appretiaion week is getting lots of good ideas, it now has its own subpage. The September 2006 Council elections will open for nominations on 18 September 2006. The voting will run from 25 September 2006 until 30 September 2006. If you wish to be a candidate or a member of the elections staff, please list yourself! The new Esperanza front page design has but put up - many thanks to all who worked on it! TangoTango has written a script for a bot that will list new members of Esperanza, which will help those who welcome new Esperanzains greatly! Signed... Natalya, Banes, Celestianpower, EWS23, FireFox, Freakofnurture, and Titoxd 04:04, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Colaboration

Hello, Melromero! Love your page! I'm going to be working on expanding the stubs for Chilean & Argentine biographies as well as translating articles into English. I'm a very new wikipedian. Since you seem to be the reigning authority for our mutual interests, I was wondering if you have any advice pertaining to the espanol wikipedia & doing translations. I look forward to working with you. Please feel free to respond on my Talk Page. Thanks, Phos 18:02, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I guess I missed your commentary. Sure, I would be really pleased to work with you. Please feel free to contact me whenever you want. Cheers! Mel Romero 13:31, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image tagging for Image:TomasBurgos.jpg

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The image uploaded was NOT unsourced. It was taken by one of the sons of the person portrayed (as tradition will have it), handed down within its family, and submitted by the actual owner of the image, who happens to be the grandson, and who has released the rights. What other information is there? Mel Romero 11:27, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chile under Pinochet

Your recent work at Chile under Pinochet looks good, but it's a little hard to tell what you changed, because you both moved things around and made other edits, and gave no edit summaries. Could you possibly drop by the talk page of that article and either summarize any substantive changes you made or indicate that there were no substantive changes? Thanks in advance. - Jmabel | Talk 18:04, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

• I have answered as requested in the talk page of Chile under Pinochet. I hope that clears up the doubts. If there are more, please feel free to ask. Mel Romero 03:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quintana

Hola Mel. Me parece sumamente interesante que hables de que yo agrego cosas al artículo que no están basadas en hechos. Quiero recordarte que fui yo quien creó el artículo, y fui yo el que agregó las referencias que aparecen al final del artículo. Tú, sin embargo, has agregado información sin incluir ninguna referencia. Además te quejas de que borro lo que agregas, cuando simplemente trato de arreglar tu pobre inglés y de dejar el artículo en un estado más leible y enciclopédico. ☆ CieloEstrellado 04:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Fine. I see I will have to expound on the changes, so you won't keep on including misleading information: a) The official version refers to the version presented by the MILITARY PATROL, not by the "dictatorship" as you, in your biased editing, insist. That version is based on their official declarations during the investigation, and is reflected in the official documents of the trial. The government never presented any explanation at the time, simply refering the case as a "investigation in progress" (check the newspaper archives of the time for the official government declarations) b) the local people who found the bodies abandoned on the irrigation ditch DID NOT take them to the local hospital, as you insist on including. They simply notified the police (Carabineros), who in turn, took them to a local hospital (Posta Central), from where they were later derivated to a more specialized hospital. If you don't want to believe the official "dictatorship" documents about that, at least read the declarations of the mother and uncle of Rodrigo Rojas, both contained in their webpages, and readily accessible from the corresponding links. c) I see no purpose in deleting the information about what the injured were doing in the place or what implements were they carrying. Including that information doesn't make them deserving of what happened to them, or the military patrol less guilty. But it gives a sense of fairness in portraying the spirit of the times. I could continue, but I think those 3 examples are enough to prove my point. As for making the entry more readable, and to presume of being able to improve on my english, well, I see those charges as ad hominem, only designed to bolster your weak scholarship, and truly they don't bear any relevance to the matter at hand... Mel Romero 06:06, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image tagging for Image:MENDOZA01.jpg

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Corrected, thanks! Mel Romero 12:16, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] November Esperanza Newsletter

Program Feature: Admin Coaching (needs coaches!) Admin Coaching needs coaches!!! If you are an administrator, or even a generally experienced user, do consider signing up to be a coach. Admin Coaching, now being coordinated by HighwayCello, is a program for people who want help learning some of the more subtle aspects of Wikipedia policy and culture. People are matched with experienced users who are willing to offer coaching. The program is designed for people who have figured out the basics of editing articles; they're not newcomers any more, but they might want some help in learning new roles. In this way, Esperanza would help keep hope alive for Wikipedia because we would always be grooming the next generation of admins. What's New? The Tutorial Drive is a new Esperanza program! In an effort to make complicated processes on Wikipedia easier for everyone, Esperanza working to create and compile a list of tutorials about processes here on Wikipedia. Consider writing one! A discussion on how Esperanza relates to the encyclopedia has been started; please add your thoughts. Many thanks to MiszaBot, courtesy of Misza13, for delivering the newsletter.

The last AC meeting (full log) The list of proposed programs has been updated, with some proposals being archived. There is now a new program: the Tutorial Drive! Consider writing a tutorial on something you are good at doing on Wikipedia. The suggestion of adding a cohesive look to all the Esperanza pages is being considered; join the discussion if you are interested! In order to make a useful interlanguage welcome template, those involved in translation projects will be asked what English Wikipedia policies are most important and confusing to editors coming from other language Wikipedias. A discussion of Esperanza's role in Wikipedia is being held, with all thoughts of all Esperanzians wanted! Shreshth91 informed everyone that he will be leaving the Esperanza council as life is rather busy; his spot will be filled by the runner up from the last election, HighwayCello. Signed... Natalya, Banes, Celestianpower, EWS23, FireFox, The Halo, Shreshth91 and HighwayCello 20:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] WikiProject Former Countries

I would like to invite you back to WikiProject Former countries. You were previously a member of its former incarnation WP Historical States. The objective of this project is still to improve the content and accessibility of articles on former countries. A taskforce for the states of the Holy Roman Empire has also been started and the child project on Prussia has also been revived. This restart is still in its early days but it would be great to have you back. - 52 Pickup 18:49, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image tagging for Image:Leteliercar.jpg

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Corrected... thanks! Mel Romero 12:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chilean people

Hello there! I am trying to categoize the Chilean people category and I came across the fact that you added category:Chilean people to many, many articles. There is no need to do this if the article is already in a higher category, like Chilean generals. Adding the base category, like Chilean people, hurts the Chilean categorize and make editing Chile-related articles more difficult. Thanks--Thomas.macmillan 03:55, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chilean edits

Hello, Melromero, since you have made several edits to articles about Chile, you may be interested in looking at the Wikipedia:Chile-related regional notice board to pick up on other topics that need attention, or to express needs which you perceive pertaining to Chile. JAXHERE | ^Talk 02:41, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image tagging for Image:Valentinavargas.jpg

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Corrected! ... thanks! Mel Romero 12:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arturo Frei

Hey. I just happened upon the Arturo Frei article, and it looks like the Spanish text in the article is taken from here. My guess is you were putting it into your own words while translating it, but got stopped in the middle of doing so. I could remove the text I think is copyvio, but I wanted to ask you first—maybe you just forgot about the article. Thanks. :) --Galaxiaad 05:07, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I guess I missed this commentary. Will try to get down to it as soon as possible. Mel Romero 13:29, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Helping out with the Unassessed Wikipedia Biographies

Seeing that you are an active member of the WikiBiography Project, I was wondering if you would help lend a hand in helping us clear out the amount of [unassessed articles] tagged with {{WPBiography}}. Many of them are of stub and start class, but a few are of B or A caliber. Getting a simple assessment rating can help us start moving many of these biographies to a higher quality article. Thank you! --Ozgod 21:25, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

will try to start doing it on a regular basis... Mel Romero 13:32, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possibly unfree Image:WesselHorst.jpg

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[edit] Wikiproject Biography March 2007 Newsletter

The March 2007 issue of the Biography WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. Mocko13 22:16, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] E. C. R. Lorac

I see you started this article. It is listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Abandoned Articles since it has no edits for nearly 2 years. Do you have any ideas about improving it? Some biographical details and a photograph would be good. --Bduke 07:48, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I guess I haven't found more info... will try to take it up again... Mel Romero 13:17, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Invitation to WikiProject Chile

I see that you have made a lot of contributions realted to Chile, maybe you would like to join a WikiProject about Chile. I you are interested please sign HERE. Dentren | ^Talk 17:13, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks... Done! Mel Romero 13:33, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DYK

On April 16, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Pedro Vuskovic, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

Thanks Mel for your article. Do feel free to self nominate in future. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The WikiProject Biography Newsletter: Issue II - April 2007

The April 2007 issue of the WikiProject Biography newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you BetacommandBot 19:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unspecified source for Image:Allende07.jpg

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Nice image, but where does it comes from?... Tazmaniacs 15:42, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Image (currently) belongs to the National Archives of Chile. It was included under the rule that allows "historical images" to be included. I have already updated the sources and copyright status. Thanks for pointing it out. Mel Romero 12:59, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chile city naming convention poll

You are invited to participate in a poll at Wikipedia talk:Chile-related regional notice board#settlement article naming poll. Please express your opinion there. Jespinos 17:22, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Done, thanks! Mel Romero 11:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Image:ASantacruz01.jpg

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• N.B. All images, regardless of copyright status require source information - i.e. where the digital image came from - this applies equally to images that are in the public domain because of their age. Madmedea 22:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] landau vs. white

See United States Ambassador to Chile Nomination of George W. Landau. Landau became only ambassador in Chile in 1977. Intangible2.0 18:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I stand corrected, my sincere apologies for the error. Mel Romero 01:24, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

No problem. Intangible2.0 23:26, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] License tagging for Image:ManuelRojas1.jpg

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[edit] WikiProject Biography Summer 2007 Assessment Drive

[edit] Non-free use disputed for Image:Augusto Pinochet Main.jpg

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[edit] Non-free use disputed for Image:Salvador Allende template.jpg

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[edit] Templates and nonfree images

I agree the image on the template Template:1973 Chilean coup d'état can be used as a fair use image. But our policy on nonfree images (WP:NONFREE) doesn't allow us to use the images on navigational templates. The fair use images can only be used in a focused, limited manner, because Wikipedia aims to be a free encyclopedia whenever possible. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:13, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Orphaned non-free image (Image:Salvador Allende template.jpg)

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[edit] Image tagging for Image:CaravanDeath.jpg

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[edit] Fair use disputed for Image:PinochetKissinger.jpg

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[edit] Orphaned non-free media (Image:Senado.jpg)

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[edit] Year of launch

Hi, I see you've moved CNS Almirante Lynch (1913), citing that it is the correct year of commissioning. In fact, we disambiguate ships by their year of launch (when their pennant number is not known), not their year of commissioning, (as per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ships). In this case, the article should be at CNS Almirante Lynch (1912) and would need to be moved back. Cheers, Benea 12:20, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok! Sorry for the mistake... just trying to understand how... Mel Romero 12:22, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

No problem, I think it's difficult to move back over a redirect. I've asked an admin I know to have a look, so hopefully he should be able to sort it out. Kind regards, Benea 12:27, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Done... but if the rule is as you mention, you should change the CNS Almirante Condell (1914) to 1912 also. Mel Romero 12:34, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Mel, please do not move pages by simply copying and pasting the content from one page to another. This loses the page history and requires an admin to clean up. The proper way to move pages is with the "move" button. TomTheHand 13:36, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CNS prefix for Chilean ships?

Does the Chilean Navy actually use the CNS prefix? It's never used in that context on their web site. Do you have any sources showing that the Chilean Navy uses it? Most navies do not use a prefix. TomTheHand 18:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Only use prefix to numeral in some case (prefix of ship type). Expemple: DDG-15 (destroyer), FF, FFG...--190.44.12.181 22:20, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Mel, is the above comment from you? If not, could you please respond? TomTheHand 13:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use image problems

I notice you have uploaded the image Image:Augusto Pinochet Main.jpg with the {{current tag name}} fair use image tag. However, this tag seems unrelated to the content of the image, and as a result it may qualify for speedy deletion. Image:Augusto Pinochet Main.jpg has been tagged for deletion, and may have been deleted by the time you see this message.

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[edit] Image:Augusto Pinochet Main.jpg listed for deletion

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[edit] Image tagging for Image:SFlach.jpg

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[edit] WikiProject Biography Newsletter 5

The Biography WikiProject Newsletter Volume IV, no. 4 - September 2007
Project News The three-month long Summer Assessment Drive, organized by Psychless, was a huge success! It ran from June 1 – September 1, and reduced the backlog of unassessed articles from 113,385 to 56,237. In all, over 100,000 articles were assessed. Over 60 people contributed in some way. A barnstar has been created for exceptional work on Wikipedia biographies and for assisting the project. The Biography Barnstar is listed with the other WikiProject awards and can be awarded easily with a template. See the template page for more details. Member News Congratulations to the editors who worked on the newest featured biographies: Augustus; William Shakespeare; Adriaen van der Donck; Alfred Russel Wallace; Alison Krauss; Anne Frank; Anne of Denmark; Asser; Bart King; Bill O'Reilly; Bobby Robson; Bradley Joseph; CM Punk; Ceawlin of Wessex; Colley Cibber; Cædwalla of Wessex; Dominik Hašek; Elizabeth Needham; Frank Macfarlane Burnet; Georg Cantor; Gregory of Nazianzus; Gunnhild Mother of Kings; Gwen Stefani; Hannah Primrose, Countess of Rosebery; Harriet Arbuthnot; Harry S. Truman; Henry, Bishop of Uppsala; Héctor Lavoe; Ine of Wessex; Ion Heliade Rădulescu; Jack Sheppard; Jackie Chan; Jay Chou; John Martin Scripps; John Mayer; Joseph Francis Shea; Joshua A. Norton; Kate Bush; Kazi Nazrul Islam; Kevin Pietersen; Martin Brodeur; Mary Martha Sherwood; Mary of Teck; Maximus the Confessor; Miranda Otto; Muhammad Ali Jinnah; P. K. van der Byl; Penda of Mercia; Pham Ngoc Thao; Rabindranath Tagore; Ramón Emeterio Betances; Red Barn Murder; Richard Hakluyt; Richard Hawes; Robert Garran; Roman Vishniac; Ronald Niel Stuart; Ronald Reagan; Roy Welensky; Rudolph Cartier; Samuel Adams; Samuel Beckett; Sarah Churchill, Duchess of Marlborough; Sarah Trimmer; Sargon of Akkad; Shen Kuo; Sophie Blanchard; Stereolab; Sydney Newman; Sylvanus Morley; Tim Duncan; Timeline of Mary Wollstonecraft; Uncle Tupelo; Waisale Serevi; Wallis, Duchess of Windsor; Walter Model; William Bruce; William Goebel; Yagan; Zhou Tong; Æthelbald of Mercia; Æthelbald of Mercia New Members Congratulations to our 225 new members	From the Editors The newsletter is back! Many things have gone on during the past few months, but many things have not. While the assessment drive helped revitalize the assessment department of the project, many other departments have received no attention. Most notably: peer review and our "workgroups". A day long IRC meeting has been planned for October 13th, with the major focus being which areas of the project are "dead", what should our goals be as a project, and how to "revive" the dead areas of our project. Contribute to the discussion on the the new channel (see below) We decided to deliver this newsletter to all project members this month but only those with their names down here will get it delivered in the future. This is your newsletter and you can be involved in the creation of the next issue. Any and all contributions are welcome. Simply let yourself be known to any of the undersigned or post news on the next issue's talk page New irc channel Lastly, a new WikiProject Biography channel has been set up on the freenode network: #wikipedia-en-bio Our thanks to Phoenix 15 for setting it up. Contributors to this Issue Psychless (talk · contribs) Phoenix 15 (talk · contribs)
Complete To Do List Write Expand stubs: British • American • Japanese • Indian • Pakistan • Australian • French • Canadian • Chinese • Polish • Russian • Turkish • People by nationality... Auto racing biography • Basketball biography • English football biography • Ice hockey biography • Track and field athletics • Sportspeople... British nobility • Military personnel • Canadian politicians • Australian politicians • British politicians • More politicians... Academics • Actors • Artists • Business biography • Mathematicians • Musicians • Television biography • Writers Collaborate: Ali Create: Articles requested for more than a year - Biographies requested Add infoboxes Review Peer Review: Insane Clown Posse • Jane Elizabeth Hodgson • Paul Koehler • Charlemagne Tower • John Zorn • James C. Duff • Skip Holtz • Dredg • G. Edward Griffin • Tenacious D • Jordanus de Nemore • Johan Arnold Smellekamp • Eros Ramazzotti A-class Review: Gregory R. Ball • Milla Jovovich • Gordon Bell (American football) • Jack Clancy • Elmer Gedeon • Dick Rifenburg Assess: Assessment requests • Assess an article Assessment Progress Biography articles Importance Top None Total Quality FA 21 480 501 A 2 18 20 GA 26 960 986 B 149 14360 14509 Start 2 110196 110198 Stub 335313 335313 List 110 110 Assessed 200 461437 461637 Unassessed 57096 57096 Total 200 518533 518733
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[edit] Orphaned non-free media (Image:Dead Chile.jpg)

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[edit] Orphaned non-free media (Image:SFlach.jpg)

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[edit] Francisco Javier Cardinal Errázuriz

Hello. Why did you revert my move? The naming convention states:

In the titles of articles, cardinals generally go by their full name (both first name and surname) alone, without the title "Cardinal", as "Ascanio Sforza", not "Cardinal Ascanio Sforza", nor "Ascanio Cardinal Sforza".

He is currently the only person listed on List of cardinals whose article title contains the word "Cardinal". That's inconsistent. Mushroom (Talk) 16:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, Francisco Javier Errázuriz Ossa (22,300 Google results) is way more common than Francisco Javier Cardinal Errázuriz (536 Google results). And you didn't fix the double redirects (see here). Mushroom (Talk) 17:28, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

There are several reasons. The most important the naming convention is to list them according to the first name, followed by the title and the last names, as you can see in the list of Category:Chilean cardinals. Mel Romero 00:38, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

No, that's not the naming convention. The naming convention is at WP:NCWC and it's the only one that is valid. Most articles about cardinals follow that convention, and I'm fixing all the ones that do not. By the way, that is not the correct way to revert a page move. Please read WP:Move. Mushroom (Talk) 00:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

That is the convention USED in English by all the major English Newspapers and Publications. You can check any style guide on the market. I stand by that. Mel Romero 02:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

The naming convention for cardinals was thoroughly discussed and agreed upon at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Western clergy)#Cardinals. If you disagree with it, feel free to propose a change. Mushroom (Talk) 13:46, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Did you know (nom)

• ...that Blanca Errázuriz was acquited of the murder of John de Saulles who she had recently divorced using the testimony of Rudolf Valentino? double articles by user:Melromero nomed by (will present two seperate if requuested). Do you approve? I see you have written two very interesting articles. Would you be happy to see them in one DYK as written or should I rewrite as two? Are you happy to have them nominated anyway? Victuallers 21:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm extremely flattered that you find them interesting. Please, rewrite to your heart's content, and if they get nominated, I'll be more than happy... ecstatic! Mel Romero 01:16, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DYK October 20

On 20 October 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Blanca Errázuriz, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Andrew c ^[talk] 22:16, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Improper sort keys

Please stop adding improper DEFAULTSORT keys, such as the ones I have just fixed at Pedro Félix Vicuña and several other articles you have recently edited. Gene Nygaard 00:12, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Replaceable fair use Image:Valentinavargas.jpg

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[edit] Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Allende-Castro.jpg

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[edit] Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Chile Junta001.jpg

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[edit] Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Chile Junta002.jpg

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If it is determined that the image does not qualify under fair use, it will be deleted within a couple of days according to our criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 20:39, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Waldo Silva

Hola!... Al momento de embarcarse a Iquique, Waldo Silva era el Vicepresidente del Senado, Vicente Reyes era el Presidente del Senado. Este último no quizo firmar el acta de deposición de Balmaceda y se quedó en Santiago...

El Manual del Senado no contiene la lista oficial de los miembros del Congreso. Ella la puedes encontrar en los "Anales de la República: textos constitucionales de Chile y registro de los ciudadanos que han integrado los poderes ejecutivo y legislativo desde 1810" de Luis Valencia (1951), obra publicada por acuerdo de las Comisiones de Policía Interna del Senado y de la Cámara de Diputados (y cuya segunda edición es de 1986). En sus orígenes esta última obra era una "cuarta" versión, corregida y ampliada, del Manuel del Senado (pero que extendió su cometido inicial y de allí la variación del nombre), que en sus tres ediciones anteriores (1923, 1929, 1942) comete varios errores... De hecho, el listado en es:Presidente del Senado de Chile y en President of the Senate of Chile son inexactos, pues se basan en el Manual del Senado (1942)....

Te transcribo los datos oficiales de la Cámara de Senadores del XXII Congreso Nacional (1888-1891)

Cámara de Senadores

Presidentes y Vicepresidentes

15 de mayo de 1888
Don Domingo Santa María, Presidente provisorio.

4 de junio de 1888
Don Domingo Santa María, Presidente.
Don Jose Ignacio Vergara, Vicepresidente.

22 de octubre de junio de 1889
Don Adolfo Valderrama, Presidente.
Don Eduardo Cuevas, Vicepresidente.

5 de junio de 1889
Don Vicente Reyes, Presidente.(1)

7 de junio de 1889
Don Eduardo Cuevas, Vicepresidente.

16 de diciembre de 1889
Don Ramón Donoso Vergara, Vicepresidente.

4 de julio de 1890
Don Waldo Silva Algüe, Vicepresidente.

--
(1) En esta oportunidad no pudo obtenerse la mayoría absoluta para elegir Vicepresidente.

—Tomo II, p 311, Anales de la República, de Luis Valencia Avaria, 2ª edición

Saludos, ----Yakoo (talk) 21:22, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

PD: Disculpa por escribir en español ;)

Gracias por aceptar mi palabra... Los Anales de la República es una obra excelente y muy recomendada por historiadores e investigadores nacionales para estos temas... Espero, a mediano plazo, incorporar el listado de Presidentes del Senado, con los datos contenidos en dicha obra (como se ha hecho en Presidente de Chile, respecto a los gobernantes; por si acaso, los ministros de Estados hasta 1984 también figuran en los Anales de la República)...

Saludos desde Coquimbo ----Yakoo (talk) 01:27, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Michelle Bachelet

My reasons why I reverted your edits to the Michelle Bachelet article.

You added:

and kidnapped Cristian Edwards, the scion of a wealthy family that was kept in captivity for some months before being released upon payment of a millionaire ransom.

I don't think a second example of the activities carried out by the FPMR is necessary. I don't think it adds anything to the article. Trying to assassinate Pinochet is big enough to characterize the group, their motives and what they were capable of.

You added:

There were several reports of her involvement in the kidnapping and attempted murder but nothing has ever been proven.

Can you please provide a source for that statement? I heard rumors too, during the campaign, but nothing more than rumors from extreme supporters of the dictatorship and nothing factual coming from a journalist. It would be irresponsible and POV to keep this if you can't provide a source and prove it was really relevant during the campaign.

You removed:

(she had reduced waiting lists by 90%)

I don't understand why you removed this bit. Without it it looks as though it was fair that she resigned, even though she had almost solved the problem. We cannot omit this information. It's a necessary context, because people thought that it was unfair that she resigned having almost solved the problem. This is one the reasons she became popular. It's too important to keep it.

You added:

she allowed for the free distribution of the morning-after pill for girls over 16 without their parent's consent, but public outcry forced the government to revert the measure.

In the source I consulted ([1]) it says she allowed it for vicitims of sexual abuse and doesn't mention anything about girls over 16. But if you can provide a source I will agree to keep it.

☆ CieloEstrellado 02:16, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Fine. I will explain myself since you have taken the time to write to me. Let's go point by point:

a)You added and kidnapped Cristian Edwards, the scion of a wealthy family that was kept in captivity for some months before being released upon payment of a millionaire ransom. I don't think a second example of the activities carried out by the FPMR is necessary. I don't think it adds anything to the article. Trying to assassinate Pinochet is big enough to characterize the group, their motives and what they were capable of.

Both examples are relevant. One represents a failure of the MIR (trying to assassinate Pinochet) and the other represents a success (the Edwards' kidnapping). It is a way to balance the actions of this terrorist organization.

b)You added There were several reports of her involvement in the kidnapping and attempted murder but nothing has ever been proven. Can you please provide a source for that statement? I heard rumors too, during the campaign, but nothing more than rumors from extreme supporters of the dictatorship and nothing factual coming from a journalist. It would be irresponsible and POV to keep this if you can't provide a source and prove it was really relevant during the campaign.

As indicated by my edit, I am pointing out the rumors that were banded during the time (and not only by supporters of the dictatorship as you say). There were several investigation leads pointing out to the fact that she was the "female doctor" that provided medical checks to Edwards while he was being held captive. Since Edwards couldn't identify this doctor because he was blindfolded while in her presence, and since all the participants had escaped from prison and were on the lam, nothing could be proven, but the facts are there. That is why is included in the edit as "reports" and not as "facts".

c)You removed (she had reduced waiting lists by 90%) I don't understand why you removed this bit. Without it it looks as though it was fair that she resigned, even though she had almost solved the problem. We cannot omit this information. It's a necessary context, because people thought that it was unfair that she resigned having almost solved the problem. This is one the reasons she became popular. It's too important to keep it.

I removed this bit simply because it is not true. Nothing else. No bias or anything. The best proof of her incompetence is that she was shortly afterwards moved to the ministry of defense (a highly visible position in Chile but one without any real power), and was replaced by person better versed on medical matters, who a year into the position apologized publicly for the worsening conditions of the public waiting lists in the health system. Her popularity has nothing to do with results as much as with personal charm.

d)You added she allowed for the free distribution of the morning-after pill for girls over 16 without their parent's consent, but public outcry forced the government to revert the measure. In the source I consulted ([2]) it says she allowed it for vicitims of sexual abuse and doesn't mention anything about girls over 16. But if you can provide a source I will agree to keep it.

Since you seem to have a problem believing the open media in Chile (I don't blame you for that, it's pretty bad and POV), try reading a source sympathetic to her, such a La Nacion newspaper archive files. There look for the articles about the fact published at the time. I will be a real eye opener for you. I would do it but for the fact that I really don't have the time to search for it... so I'm relying on the fact that I was in situ at the time and my memory still holds true.

--Mel Romero (talk) 02:40, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

a) Both examples are relevant. One represents a failure of the MIR (trying to assassinate Pinochet) and the other represents a success (the Edwards' kidnapping). It is a way to balance the actions of this terrorist organization.

MIR? It was the FPMR. Anyway, I still don't think it's relevant to the article to point out the "successes" of the group. It's only relevant to mention this if you later add the "female doctor" bit, which you haven't sourced.

b) As indicated by my edit, I am pointing out the rumors that were banded during the time (and not only by supporters of the dictatorship as you say). There were several investigation leads pointing out to the fact that she was the "female doctor" that provided medical checks to Edwards while he was being held captive. Since Edwards couldn't identify this doctor because he was blindfolded while in her presence, and since all the participants had escaped from prison and were on the lam, nothing could be proven, but the facts are there. That is why is included in the edit as "reports" and not as "facts".

Sources, please. I will not do the job for you.

c) I removed this bit simply because it is not true. Nothing else. No bias or anything. The best proof of her incompetence is that she was shortly afterwards moved to the ministry of defense (a highly visible position in Chile but one without any real power), and was replaced by person better versed on medical matters, who a year into the position apologized publicly for the worsening conditions of the public waiting lists in the health system.

I can see you don't like her, but this is an encyclopedia, and we need to cite whatever we might include. Whether she was moved to the Defense ministry for her incompetence in Health or because Lagos wanted to up her visibility, is something that needs to be cited. And I don't remember Artaza publicly apologizing for that, so you need to provide a source.

Her popularity has nothing to do with results as much as with personal charm.

Can you provide a source for that, because, honestly, I'm not interested in your personal opinion of her.

d) Since you seem to have a problem believing the open media in Chile (I don't blame you for that, it's pretty bad and POV)

I don't know what led you to believe that.

try reading a source sympathetic to her, such a La Nacion newspaper archive files. There look for the articles about the fact published at the time. I will be a real eye opener for you. I would do it but for the fact that I really don't have the time to search for it... so I'm relying on the fact that I was in situ at the time and my memory still holds true.

You need to provide the sources yourself. I'm not doing the job for you.

☆ CieloEstrellado 03:09, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Fine. I agree with you that the comments (even when marked as comments) may be open to mis-interpretation unless backed by solid bits. Nonetheless, since I really don't have the time for searching for the sources, I will play along with you. Hence I will remove ALL unsourced POV statements, and reduce the biography only to those sourced bits. I think that will be more correct and in line with Wikipedia's objectives. Cheers! --Mel Romero (talk) 03:20, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Please, take a look at WP:POINT. Anyway, everything you removed is sourced. Maybe I didn't put the ref tag after every single sentence, but the source is mentioned at the end of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CieloEstrellado (talk • contribs) 09:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Nothing that I did remove is sourced. And most of what I did remove is just qualifiers, POVs (a great job?, an obstructionist right-wing opposition?) or just plain false information. As you indicated in your previous comments, if you want to add something, just sourced it: "You need to provide the sources yourself. I'm not doing the job for you." If not it will be removed. Rules are the same for everybody, not just for the comments you seem to agree with. Cheers! --Mel Romero (talk) 09:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

a. Her ancestry is sourced here, so can you explain why you are removing it? Perhaps you don't find the detail necessary? I think it serves the article quite well.

b. You removed (she had reduced waiting lists by 90%), which is sourced here. I've already explained why I think it is necessary to keep it.

c. You added with the promise to resign if not able to meet the target. I cannot find a reputable source indicating that she made that promise or that Lagos threatened her with that option. Was this an implicit threat or a explicit one, from Lagos, I mean?

d. You deleted for vicitims of sexual abuse. This is sourced here.

e. You added only. That is POV. 46% is way above what the other candidates obtained. It wasn't enough for an outright win, but that doesn't qualify an only tag. In countries like Argentina, 45% is enough to win a first round election. So, it isn't a small percentage.

f. You removed and the first woman who was not the wife of a previous head of state or political leader to reach the presidency of a Latin American nation in a direct election. This is sourced at List of elected or appointed female heads of state and in every Wikipedia entry of the females referenced. Perhaps you need a direct citation? I could do that.

g. You changed dictator to president. Nobody in the English world calls Pinochet a president. Only pinochetistas like yourself do.

h. You removed (fueled by an extensive and critical media coverage and an aggressive right-wing opposition) and obstructionist. I'll find sources for that.

i. You added <center> tags to the cabinet listing. I think that looks bad.

By the way, here's Artaza saying wonders about Bachelet as Health Minister.

Cheers. ☆ CieloEstrellado 12:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I can see you've been a busy bee during my absence. Good for you, but it still cuts no ice. Unless you stop adding POVs, qualifiers, unsourced statements and the like, I'm terribly sorry but I will have to keep on removing them. Also, a quick check on the history of this page under discussion and on your own talk page shows that it's not only me who doesn't agree with your style of editing, but seems to be a constant. I'm surprised there are so many "Pinochetists" out there... or is that just the epithet you apply to anybody who does not agree with you? More to the point

a.Her ancestry is sourced here, so can you explain why you are removing it? Perhaps you don't find the detail necessary? I think it serves the article quite well. This is not a genealogy page. We mention what her ancestry was (French and Greek, and even if it's not mentioned Spanish.) If you want to talk about her grandparents, then create a page ABOUT them. That information does not belong there nor is relevant unless you believe that there are good genes and bad genes (Hitler did believe that, by the way, so there's historical references for that theory.)

b.You removed (she had reduced waiting lists by 90%), which is sourced here. I've already explained why I think it is necessary to keep it. The page you mention as a source is not credible. In fact, I would be bold enough to call their assertions outright disinformation (i.e. lies). If you want a real source, why don't you try the Chilean Ministry of Health's official statistics? Though, being such a cynical person as I am I wouldn't trust them very much either.

c.You added with the promise to resign if not able to meet the target. I cannot find a reputable source indicating that she made that promise or that Lagos threatened her with that option. Was this an implicit threat or a explicit one, from Lagos, I mean? Are you sure you live or were living in Chile at the time? It was an electoral promise. Lagos repeated it at his first press conference, and kept on talking about it for the first 3 months. Of course nobody was surprised that he didn't solve the problem or fire the minister, but hey, that's what electoral promises always amount to...

d.You deleted for vicitims of sexual abuse. This is sourced here. Ok. Point taken. The policy did say for victims of sexual abuse. I am not arguing that. The problem with the policy was that anyone over the age of 14 could get the pill by claiming sexual abuse EVEN if there was no proof of said abuse AND the policy also stated that there was no need to seek parental consent or even notify the parents or police that such abuse was claimed. In other words, the "victimization" excuse could be used to cover any sexual encounter (even if freely entered into) and by-pass parental control. That is what caused such tremendous ruckus.

e.You added only. That is POV. 46% is way above what the other candidates obtained. It wasn't enough for an outright win, but that doesn't qualify an only tag. In countries like Argentina, 45% is enough to win a first round election. So, it isn't a small percentage. First, read the Argentine rules (the difference with the second place when less than 45% must be of over 10 percent points), so if the same difference had happened in Argentina as it happened in Chile between Bachelet and Piñera, a second round would have occurred nonetheless. Second, the "only" is pertinent, since she obtained the least amount of votes in a first round of any Concertacion Presidential Candidate. As with any adjective, it's only referential and not absolute. If you want to take it out, be my guest.

f.You removed and the first woman who was not the wife of a previous head of state or political leader to reach the presidency of a Latin American nation in a direct election. This is sourced at List of elected or appointed female heads of state and in every Wikipedia entry of the females referenced. Perhaps you need a direct citation? I could do that. Again, this is a tepid reference. Maybe Isabel de Peron wasn't elected because of herself but because of her husband, but Lidia Gueiler was (even if she was only interim). Panama and Nicaragua also had had women presidents. So, what? Bachelet's also the first woman who is a natural blonde to reach the presidency of a Latin American nation in a direct election. Does that qualify a mention?

g.You changed dictator to president. Nobody in the English world calls Pinochet a president. Only pinochetistas like yourself do. Aha... this is where you show your true colors. So, anybody who doesn't agree with your POVs is the enemy? Too bad, because no matter what YOU think, I will continue cleaning up your slants. People who bandy around pointless and rude terms like you are the ones that give editing a bad name.

h.You removed (fueled by an extensive and critical media coverage and an aggressive right-wing opposition) and obstructionist. I'll find sources for that. You will find sources for those "adjectives"? Of course you can find lots of sources for them, but that doesn't make them true or allowed here. Read the policy at WP:POINT.

i.You added <center> tags to the cabinet listing. I think that looks bad. Fair enough, but since I am the one taking the time and trouble to slowly work my way through all the lists of ministers in Chile, adding the occasional biography of the unknown politician, I guess I'm allowed to implement whatever look I feel it pleases me.

By the way, here's Artaza saying wonders about Bachelet as Health Minister. Sure, and I'm sure you can also find a quote from the Zaldivar brothers before they were sacked. It all depends on the opportunity when they were made and the ambitions of the speaker. That doesn't make them objective. Cheers. --Mel Romero (talk) 00:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really sure if this is really productive, as you seem to rely too much on personal attacking to make your arguments. Check out WP:NPA. But I will respond to some of your comments.

a. This is not a genealogy page. We mention what her ancestry was (French and Greek, and even if it's not mentioned Spanish.) If you want to talk about her grandparents, then create a page ABOUT them. That information does not belong there nor is relevant unless you believe that there are good genes and bad genes (Hitler did believe that, by the way, so there's historical references for that theory.)

This isn't about genes, it's about background, and those are the relatives that the sources consulted considered more relevant.

b. The page you mention as a source is not credible. In fact, I would be bold enough to call their assertions outright disinformation (i.e. lies). If you want a real source, why don't you try the Chilean Ministry of Health's official statistics? Though, being such a cynical person as I am I wouldn't trust them very much either.

Why don't YOU provide some sources once and for all?

c. Are you sure you live or were living in Chile at the time? It was an electoral promise. Lagos repeated it at his first press conference, and kept on talking about it for the first 3 months. Of course nobody was surprised that he didn't solve the problem or fire the minister, but hey, that's what electoral promises always amount to...

You are still unable to provide sources to back your statements.

d. Ok. Point taken. The policy did say for victims of sexual abuse. I am not arguing that. The problem with the policy was that anyone over the age of 14 could get the pill by claiming sexual abuse EVEN if there was no proof of said abuse AND the policy also stated that there was no need to seek parental consent or even notify the parents or police that such abuse was claimed. In other words, the "victimization" excuse could be used to cover any sexual encounter (even if freely entered into) and by-pass parental control. That is what caused such tremendous ruckus.

So? What's your point exactly? We cannot question a policy by ourselves. We can say it was questioned by such and such, but you haven't provides sources.

e. First, read the Argentine rules (the difference with the second place when less than 45% must be of over 10 percent points), so if the same difference had happened in Argentina as it happened in Chile between Bachelet and Piñera, a second round would have occurred nonetheless. Second, the "only" is pertinent, since she obtained the least amount of votes in a first round of any Concertacion Presidential Candidate. As with any adjective, it's only referential and not absolute. If you want to take it out, be my guest.

The difference between Bachelet and Piñera was over 20% in the first round! Bachelet got 45.96% and Piñera 25.41%. In Argentina Bachelet would have been instantly elected president.

f. Again, this is a tepid reference. Maybe Isabel de Peron wasn't elected because of herself but because of her husband, but Lidia Gueiler was (even if she was only interim). Panama and Nicaragua also had had women presidents. So, what? Bachelet's also the first woman who is a natural blonde to reach the presidency of a Latin American nation in a direct election. Does that qualify a mention?

Britannica even mentions it on its opening paragraph! She was the first woman president of Chile and the first popularly elected South American woman president whose political career was established independent of her husband.[3]

g. Aha... this is where you show your true colors. So, anybody who doesn't agree with your POVs is the enemy? Too bad, because no matter what YOU think, I will continue cleaning up your slants. People who bandy around pointless and rude terms like you are the ones that give editing a bad name.

I'm really sorry for you, but that's what the overwhelming majority in the English world calls him.

i. Fair enough, but since I am the one taking the time and trouble to slowly work my way through all the lists of ministers in Chile, adding the occasional biography of the unknown politician, I guess I'm allowed to implement whatever look I feel it pleases me.

And I'm equally allowed to not like it.

Cheers! ☆ CieloEstrellado 06:12, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Channel that anger

Look, if you dislike Ms. Bachelet so much, then why don't you channel that anger by writing a well sourced Criticism section instead of peppering the whole article with negative and unsourced remarks? Remember that you must abide to WP:LIVING, WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. Good luck! ☆ CieloEstrellado 05:52, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

peppering the whole article with negative and unsourced remarks? I have not added a single iota to the article. I have just taken out POVs, qualifiers and unsourced statements. If you think that cleaning an article shows anger, then you shouldn't try your hand at editing. Also, I will stop answering your remarks, I can see that is a waste of time trying to explain something to somebody who just doesn't want to hear. And by the way, you cannot prove a point by adding spurious references, like the ones you added to try to bolster the obstructionist opposition bit. The article is about facts, not POVs, even if said POVs are the personal opinions of whomever is described in the article. Cheers. --Mel Romero (talk) 06:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I have not added a single iota to the article. That is false, as you can see by reading my first message under the "Michelle Bachelet" discussion above. ☆ CieloEstrellado 10:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

You're wrong. This is possible to do if you give proper attribution within the article's text. Check out WP:NPOV#Attributing and substantiating biased statements. ☆ CieloEstrellado 09:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Instead of wasting everyone's time (including your own) by trying to substantiate biased POVs, why don't you just spend the same time and effort cleaning and tightening the text and adding real, meaningful sources? --Mel Romero (talk) 10:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see the same from you. You've been spending plenty of your time in this article basically taking out sourced text and replacing with unsourced text. Why don't you use some of that effort in actually finding sources to substantiate your changes? I have not seen this from you. ☆ CieloEstrellado 10:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Michelle Bachelet: Negociation

You say that in this article there are POV statements, qualifiers and unsourced statements. Looking at the diffs I see that you have removed many things from the article. Can you specify which parts that you removed were POV statements, which parts were qualifiers and which parts were unsourced statements so we can start to negociate a solution? You can quote the removed text below, if you wish, to facilitate discussion. Thanks. ☆ CieloEstrellado 10:06, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Necessary changes:

• birth_place= Santiago, Chile - we should remove redundant flag icon per WP:MOSFLAG
• which sets her apart in a predominantly conservative and Catholic country. - Not sourced, and to express a personal POV, totally untrue. In Chile, according to official statistics from the Chilean Civil Registry, 45% of all births happen to unwed mothers. So, what sets her apart then?
• served as Health Minister and Defense Minister - this is a redundancy, should be ...served as Health and Defense Minister...
• Her paternal great-great-grandfather, Joseph Bachelet Lapierre, was a French wine merchant from Chassagne-Montrachet who emigrated to Chile with his Parisian wife in 1860 hired as a wine-making expert by the Subercaseaux vineyards. Bachelet Lapierre's son, Germán—Michelle Bachelet's great-grandfather—, was born in Chile and married to a French-Swiss woman. Of Greek ancestors, her maternal grandfather, Máximo Jeria Chacón, was the first person to receive a degree in agronomic engineering in Chile and founded several agronomy schools in the country. - totally irrelevant to THIS biography. Should be removed by WP:BLPSTYLE
• She graduated as an M.D. in 1982 as one of the best students in her class. - Sources? One of the best? goes against WP:ASF
• and the first woman who was not the wife of a previous head of state or political leader to reach the presidency of a Latin American nation in a direct election - should be removed by WP:BLPSTYLE. She is not the first woman elected in Latin America (or South America either), Isabel Perón and Lidia Gueiler were before, even if not directly. Chamorro and Moscoso were directly elected, even as if alleged "riding the coat-tails" of their respective husbands (I don't agree with that... found it demeaning to those presidents the consideration that they couldn't have been elected on their own right.) If so, Bachelet rode on the coat-tails of his father, so the case would be similar. The article should indicate ONLY that she is the first female president of Chile.
• Electoral Qualifier Tribunal - the translation is incorrect. "Qualifier" in English is another word to describe an adjective, and to boot, it indicates a passive action never an active one, so it never can be the equivalent of "Calificador". Electoral Tribunal should suffice as translation.
• the death of former dictator Augusto Pinochet - like it or not, Pinochet was a President. The issue has been argued ad nauseam in the Pinochet talk page and the NPOV term to use is president.
• forcing her to negotiate with a right-wing opposition she sees as being obstructionist. - totally POV, and against WP:SELFPUB. You cannot use the subject's opinions as sources. Just remove the "obstructionist" qualifier and the spurious sources.

Controversial items:

• On March 11, 2000 Bachelet —a virtual unknown at the time— was appointed Minister of Health by President Ricardo Lagos. She began with an in-depth reform of the public healthcare system that led to the AUGE plan a few years later. She was also given the task of eliminating waiting lists in the saturated public hospital system within the first 100 days of Lagos's government. Unable to meet this goal (she had reduced waiting lists by 90%), she offered her resignation, which was promptly rejected by the President. More controversially, she allowed for the free distribution of the morning-after pill for vicitims of sexual abuse. - a) She didn't began the reform of the health service, she just organized the study groups that eventually formulated the proposal, long after she was gone. b) the 90% is totally false, should be removed. c) she didn't offer her resignation. The resignation had been a requested long BEFORE, when Lagos said that the obligation of the minister of health was to solve the problem in 100 days or resign. d) the "sexual abuse" clause was just an attempt to by-pass the constitutional ban on abortions and parental controls.
• Her participation in terrorist groups - nothing has been proven as to her direct involvement in violent acts, but just last weekend there was a long article in "La Tercera" newspaper about her participation in the resistance to Pinochet in 1973-1974 years. There's a lot that should be mentioned and it isn't.

There is more, but I really don't have the time to do more or even attempt to source all. I think those changes should be enough to make the page more readable. --Mel Romero (talk) 08:49, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] Image:MonedaBombing.jpg

Hello, could you please add a source for Image:MonedaBombing.jpg? I want to upload it to Russian wiki but I can't as the source info is needed for fair use ratio. // vh16^ru talk 17:41, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Award 1977

Hi Melromero,

I (tried to) translate(d) the de:Schiedsgericht im Beagle-Konflikt using Babelfish and improved some things. But the result is still not ready for publishing. Could you take a look and correct the text?. Feel free to change, delete or add text, or ask questions if the text is unintelligible.

Thanks for your time, --Keysanger (talk) 12:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] About the Covadonga article

Hi Melromero, look, the version of the Covadonga defeating the Independencia appears mainly (and only) in Chilean sources, your affirmation "all sources" is incorrect, because the facts are simple and clear: The Covadonga tried to escape, the Independencia unable score a hit with her artillery try to ram the schooner according to the orders dictated by the Peruvian Supreme Director of the War, MArianio Ignacio Prado, and the frigate collide with a rock, without intervention of the Covadonga, in fact some newspapers of that time called Condell "El Heroe de la Casualidad" (A Lucky Hero...) and the reports of More, Grau and the memories of Andres A. Caceres, and inclusive Chilean NAvy website affirms that was luck and not the power of the schooner who sealed the fate of the Peruvian frigate... (Besides, the mentioned website affirms than the Independencia surrenders, and that is also false, the frigate never low his colours, the flag was derribed by shots of the Chilean naval fusiliers, but this was soon rised again by an young sailor named Federico Navarrete).

Wikipedia is not a place of absurd nationalism, the Covadonga never have a chance to defeat the Independencia, it was luck, not power, who gave the victory to the Chilean Navy. Greetings and i hope you understand, if you speak spanish we can continued this talk in that language --Cloudaoc (talk) 01:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi there. The point is not well taken. I agree that this is not a place for nationalisms. The fact that I'm Chilean does not mean that I'm defending a moot point. The fact is that if you take the time to read the Peruvian (and some Bolivian) historiographers, you'll find that the concensus is that the Independencia was "lured" into the shallow waters where it eventually struck bottom and sunk. More (I did his article, by the way, since I'm an admirer of him), is not a reliable witness in the matter. His report was drawn to excuse himself mostly. Grau was not present and had to rely on More's word for his report. Caceres was not even there, but in Arica. I think you should check Basadre's version, or better still there was a series of articles published in book form by the Naval Circle of Peru in the 80's that are based on previously unpublished testimonies from survivors (I own quite a few, but since I'm far away from my sources right now, I'm only quoting you from memory...) The sources seem to agree that Condell had one of the former Iquique "practicos" on board (the "practico" as you may well know, was the man in charge of acquainting himself with the underwater seabed near a major port, in order to navigate the ships that came in and out in order to prevent their getting stuck in unknown waters). If that is true (no two source agrees on the name of the "practico", which seems odd...), then the destruction of the Independencia was not a "lucky moment".

When I refer to all sources, I refer mostly to all "credible" sources, specially primary sources, or Peruvian or Bolivian historiographers (like Querejazu, who has written what for me is the best account of the war.) I don't take into account any website or (sad to say) most Chilean accounts, since they are notoriously unreliable. Mel Romero (talk) 01:31, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick answer, but your sources are incorrect and in some cases, incomplete, Caceres it was there, as part of the Iquique garrison, an his division set his encampment near Punta Gruesa, an he was one of many eyewitnesses ,about the Bolivan sources i don't know how good this could be about this specific battle in the war (they don't act in the Naval Campaign), I know the Basadre version, and is true than Condell know very well the waters near Iquique, but the "practico" aboard the Covadonga was an English man named "Stanley", a former "practico" in Iquique (and as you, I'm only quoting my sources from memory), and the Peruvians also know the dangers of the coast of Iquique, but the orders of Prado was clear: If the artillery fail, use the ram. Condell don't try to "lure" More, he just took the best decision he can made under that circumstances: Escape to the South at full speed and very close to the coast, using the advantage of the reduced drought of his schooner.

There is no consensus in the sources, in fact this is one of the most controversial actions in the war, but the text of the article says: "the Covadonga defeated the immensely superior Independencia..." and that is false, the ship is lost, yes, the encounter in Iquique result in a pyrric victory for the Peruvian Navy, yes; Condell was the man of the Day in that moment, yes, but the affirmation about the "lure" is just an conjecture, not a fact; is just one-sided interpretation of the facts. And why is necessary to say: "immensely"? I m only trying to tell facts as it happen, i m not judging or interpreting the facts.

And the facts are: The Covadonga try to escape, the Independencia use its ram (as ordered the Supreme Director) as her artillery was useless and collided with the rock, then the Covadonga return and attack the frigate until the Huascar appears in the horizon, an then, escapes...

That´s all... I hope you understand, and seek new sources, i have in my collection the reports of the battle (both sides), i have the memories of Caceres, the series "Historia Maritima del Peru" is a great and accurated source, and some friends who are historians and have much more information and sources than I. I hope do you agree to put a true neutral point-of-view in this important article. Greetings --Cloudaoc (talk) 02:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, let's see... using your own words "And the facts are: The Covadonga try to escape, the Independencia use its ram (as ordered the Supreme Director) as her artillery was useless and collided with the rock, then the Covadonga return and attack the frigate until the Huascar appears in the horizon, an then, escapes..." The questions inmediately spring to mind: why was the Independencia artillery so useless (the ship has just come out of dry dock, and had been completely renovated at great cost) that it could not take on a smaller, poorly armed ship? How was that it could not overtake the slower ship? (remember that one of the reasons that Covadonga didn't follow the Chilean Navy to the north was the fact that it was so slow). Many other questions all point that somehow the Covadonga managed to render the Independencia's superior power useless, forcing More to take on risks that in the end caused the destruction of his ship. You yourself provide the name of the "practico", and of course, the orders from Prado (who was definitely not a sailor) could not have forced a seasoned sailor like More into blind obedience to the point of risking the life of his crew and his ship when his naval experience adviced otherwise. That all sounds like one side did things better than the other. If you want to take out the adjectives, that's fine by me, but you really cannot change the facts. It would be like saying that the sinking of the Esmeralda was a Chilean victory because it's destruction raised the troop's morale. We need to be objective here. Mel Romero (talk) 02:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, about the artillery of the Independencia, this was useless because the poor training of the crew, not because the artillery itself was useless (in fact, the stern gun of the Independencia dismount after the first shoot, and the bow gun cannot be reloaded because it was unarmored and the precise shots of the Chilean naval fusiliers prevent it); thats why Prado ordered the use of the ram, an that orders was a product of a meeting between the senior officers of the Peruvian Navy and the General Prado in Arica (in the Aduana building, to be precisely) a few day before the battle, in that meeting the Admiral Montero (with Grau, More, and others) approve the use of the ram, but was More who committed the mistake to use it so near the coast and in uncharted waters (not all the rocks was been identified by that time), and your analogy about the Esmeralda is a fallacy, More committed a huge mistake, why he took that decision in that moment is the really big and unanswerable question...

But this is not about the decision of More, is about the facts of the battle, and you my friend are not being so neutral as you affirm in first place, please don't get angry, i`m not tryng to change the facts, the result of the battle is correct: A decisive Chilean Victory (for the so called Naval Battle of Punta Gruesa), i cannot deny that, is the pure truth... But affirm than Condell managed to "lure" More to a improvised trap in Punta Gruesa is just a supposition, a conjecture, not a fact. I hope you noticed than I´m well informed about the battle in particular and the war in general, mainly the naval campaign. I suggest to you check again your sources and get new ones, the Bolivian historian than you previously mentioned is not know in Peru, and i seriously doubt about the accuraccy of his research, specially in the points related to the Naval Campaign. Sorry, but the article "as is". with the affirmation of the victory of the Covadonga is not neutral and not acceptable, because is based in a mere supposition.

The battle was a Chilean victory, yes; but a victory of the Covadonga, no, that`s false; it was a victory product of luck and the bad desicion of More, but we are not judging More or the facts, we are tryng just to explain the facts as happen, not as we want. Greetings.--Cloudaoc (talk) 02:49, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

You may have some valid points, but I'm still not convinced that your approach is the correct one. If More only "followed orders" why was he court-martialled and convicted then? I could go on and on, but as you say, the point is to remain objective (and not get angry...) As for Querejazu, you should really read him, he's by far the best historian of the period (specially on the causes, both direct or diplomatic, of the war and its aftermath). Much better (surprisingly) than Peruvian or Chilean researchers. It's a shame that's he so poorly known outside Bolivia, and in fact one (if not the only one) who actually reasearched also in the European primary sources (which are more objective and offer a much more varied vision of the principal participants.) I'm also well informed about the period, but sadly my sources are on the other side of the globe so cannot trust anything more than my memory, that's why I don't discuss the events more in detail (memory is a poor and notoriously vague ally.) I don't agree with either the supposition that one side won "because of luck" or the other lost "because of misfortune". That's a poor service to truth. Maybe we can agree on a middle ground? Mel Romero (talk) 03:33, 20 May 2008 (UTC)