Talk:Melungeon

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Melungeon is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.

Contents

[edit] older comments

Note: Please start new discussions at the bottom of the page (not the top). If you want to start a back-and-forth discussion PLEASE create an account so you can include the date and time of your posting - otherwise these get so confused that nobody knows what is new and what is old, and who is responding to what. - DavidWBrooks 01:39, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] how are they realted to Spanish and Portuguese?

Aren't they more relate to English and irish-Scottish since they are black, native american and european (mostly of british origins). What southern europeans have to do with them???

In earlier years, members of groups such as these would sometimes self-identify as Spanish or Portugese to escape discrimination that was directed at known African-American families. The article also documents some sources for Spanish/Portugese ancestors.--Parkwells (talk) 14:46, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Also, there were some Italian sea captains who settled in VA in the early 1700s. Two Tagliaferro brothers were sea captains who married and settled there, with many descendants. Later the name was anglicized to Taliaferro and Tolliver.--Parkwells (talk) 22:18, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
In his Many Thousands Gone (1998), Ira Berlin documented the arrival of Atlantic creole slaves in the North American colonies, some of whom had fathers who were Spanish or Portuguese from trading cities in Africa or Europe. Often the Atlantic creoles first worked in Barbados or other Caribbean locations.--Parkwells (talk) 21:06, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion archive

  • Archive 1 (5 September 2003 - 16 September 2006)

[edit] Box

Added box with photo, comparable to the Cajun or Breton people articles. Badagnani 19:04, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Who are the people in the photo, and what is their claim to Melungeon-ness? Did they self-ID as Melungeons? I strongly doubt that. Why not just put up a photo from one of the "Unions" meetings? At least those folks do self-ID.Verklempt 21:40, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
No response yet to this request for substantiation. I say the photo comes out, given the lack of verifiable provenance.Verklempt 20:59, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, the information is contained in the photo page itself, if you click through to it. I was thorough in my documentation: Arch Goins and family, Melungeons from Graysville, Tennessee. Archival family photograph from the 1920s, provided to http://www.geocities.com/melungeonorigin/maomg2.html by Barbara Goins. Badagnani 21:08, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure the people in that photo would be insulted to be called Melungeons. With no evidence that they self-IDed as Melungeon, it is the worst kind of revisionist history to label them as such retroactively.Verklempt 02:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

The previous argument against including any kind of photo in this article (in earlier discussion, maybe before you began editing here) was that we should not include photos of living persons because some editors believed that would be in bad taste. The suggestion was to find photos of people who are no longer living. What's happened, though (as you know), is that the same families of people who may have tried to hide their identities (as best they could in light of their physical appearance) have reclaimed and celebrated their heritage, one could say retroactively. I hope you won't argue that we shouldn't include a photo of living Melungeons or a photo of deceased Melungeons, for the same reason that it's something to be ashamed of. Because for many people today that isn't the case any more; in fact, that photo would not have been shared if Arch's descendant hadn't been interested in telling her family's story. You and I and some of the other editors may have traveled down to the mountains and seen what Melungeons look like, but most of our readers have not, and the photo is very helpful. If you can find a superior photo, that would be good, but for now this one should work to give people an idea of their appearance (as described in the article). Badagnani 03:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Badagnani; the family itself posted the photo and classified its own people as Melungeons on the geocities site. Therefore it's fine to use it.--Parkwells (talk) 17:06, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wise surname

Wise is a surname, in fact the surname of the person for whom the county is named. But I don't think he was actually from Wise County. Can the person adding the surname to the article explain where this information comes from? Badagnani 06:04, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Wise County was likely named after a descendant or relative of the Wise family that was influential in VA politics and long-settled on plantations in Accomack County. Henry Alexander Wise was governor of VA from 1856-1860, for instance, and preceded by numerous politician ancestors.--Parkwells (talk) 14:48, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
As I suspected, Wise County was named after Henry A. Wise, just elected Gov. of VA in 1856, when the county was established.[1] Because the Wise family had been so long established in VA, and also because the name is not unusual, there could have been many sources for the Wise family and ancestors noted in the Melungeons article.--Parkwells (talk) 16:01, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Was reading too fast. I don't know who added Wise as one of the Melungeon families.--Parkwells (talk) 22:24, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

Mul(atto) + Injun = Mulungeon ? -THB 07:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


The most widely accepted and best-supported etymological origins for "Melungeon" are the old English "Malingerer," meaning 'loafer', the French "Melangean," meaning 'mixed', "Malungo," an Afro-Portuguese term for 'comrade,' and "Melangeana," Italian for 'eggplant' which is in application slang for "black."

"Melungeon" is neologic, and historically the people so-called were mulattoes and free persons of color, as is well inicated in the historical record. What little reliable DNA and other genetic testing has been done is suggestive: mainly English and a little African.

The word Melungeon is not neologic. An English cognate has been discovered circa 1600, and documented in this article.Verklempt 01:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chestney?

Chestney needs to come out. It is certainly not one of the most common core names. In fact, I have never heard of it before at all.Verklempt 00:26, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Royer?

Why was "Royer" added as a surname? What is the source for that? Badagnani 09:35, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Don Quixote proof

In Cervantes' forward to "Don Quixote" he uses the literary device of pretending that his book is actually a manuscript by a Moorish scholar, Sidi Hamet Benengeli. This surname is pronounced "Benenhaley", which seems to be an old surname among Melungeons and similar groups. Proof there, surely, of some Arabic origin?

68.8.167.68 22:28, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

This is not the way to prove ancestry. The name does not appear on any of the lists referred to in this article. Anyway, the way to do research is to start with the most recent individuals and dates of births, marriages, deaths, etc., then work backward through documented records, so you can see the actual lineage and also name changes.--Parkwells (talk) 21:58, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Moonshine

Where's the balance in this article? It is totally in favor of all assertions made, with no opposing views. Wikipedia is not to endorse sides. Melungeon appears to be a miniscule underground political movement exaggerated to resemble the Meztiso population of Mexicans and other "Hispanics", all of which never reared its ugly head until the 1960s Hippies. Most of it seems to be the brainchild of one Brent Kennedy, Scotch-Irish to the bone by the way. So he thinks he is some "wise man" or "brave" in romance novels, instead of white trash like his hillbilly neighbors. Let him and his cult followers dream about becoming Mexicans and let Kenny Chesney sing about popping open a cold one in Mexico. Stop the speculations now. How influential was this subject until the internet was invented? Puhleeze. We're all Cherokee--bah. Let me become my forefathers' victims by stealing the identity of those fallen; truly wiping them out for good. I'm sure my ancestors' heroes like Andrew Jackson (another Scotch-Irishman BTW) would be proud. This is one big cycle of Southern ignorance, coverups and self-delusions. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Also, be reminded that Wikipedia is not for self-endorsement. Les Invisibles 06:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Melungeons were recognized by their neighbors over the past 100+ years or so, largely due to their physical appearance, as a group distinct from other settlers of purely European descent. The article relies on the available sources to determine the actual origin(s) of these people (and to discount some of the claims that turn out to have no evidence). Your post, on the other hand, consists solely of opinion, with no sources, and it's not clear that you have read the article itself in a careful, thoughtful manner. Please do so, then we'll have a more reasoned discussion. Badagnani 07:15, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Very few Americans whose have ancestry in the country for over a century are of "pure" racial blood. Most have a little Amerindian blood or African. Chiss Boy 13:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

This whole Melungeon thing is like trying to assign an ethnicity to multiracial offspring of unmarried parents in the urban ghettoes--except that the Melungeons are rural. These people, of vastly different poor origins, do not constitute their own ethnicity in sum total. Les Invisibles 07:20, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Please prove that Melungeon is an ethnicity. Les Invisibles 07:23, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Largely due to their not-quite-purely European appearance, they were described by their neighbors over a period of many decades, pejoratively, as "Melungeons," whether you like this or not. And the families so described often kept close ties with one another, largely of necessity, forming a community of sorts, somewhat independently of their neighbors of more purely European ancestry. It's all described in the article. Have you read it straight through? You should do that, then we'll talk. Badagnani 07:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Nearly all rural families keep close ties and form communities with one another. That proves nothing, especially given the extensive intermarriage between the hypothetical Melungeon ancestors and their neighbors. There are only two documented uses of the word Melungeon prior to the time the amateur hypothesists of the late 19th century began fabricating the myth. I have to largely agree with Mr. InvisibleVerklempt 22:20, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
"unmarried parents in the urban ghettoes (misspelled, btw; it's ghettos)." What's this in here for? Or are you just a racist? Chiss Boy 13:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

So the Hatfields and McCoys become nations unto themselves? You've got to realize how this looks to outsiders and the world at large; very foolish indeed. It reeks of exaggerated self-aggrandizement and a way for small hick towns to get on a Northern liberal college-view map about race, in which Southern liberal Whites felt ostracized for not agreeing with the dominant racial customs of their region. They watched in horror as the KKK tore apart those non-whites and felt disturbed to be expected to conform to the hatred. So, they create their own community that looks good to Northern liberal politicians. This doesn't look legit at all. You still have not responded to the charges about how it is possible for interracial children to constitute an ethnicity of their own, anymore than a micronation or online community to be seriously taken as a realistic political entity.

Also, I keep seeing this thing about appearance. I do not fit the "Anglo-Teutonic" racial stereotype, yet I am white. The Welsh are White, even if they look Middle Eastern. Are Middle Easterners somehow not Caucasian? This conflicts with the majority viewpoint, which is solidly anti-Nazi in its definition of race. How about Catherine Zeta-Jones, or the Spaniard Antonio Banderas? Would they fail a Nazi racial purity test? Hitler himself did not fit the archetype you believe is a qualification for whiteness. Les Invisibles 07:33, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Those are some good points. It's true that not all Europeans look alike. But the individuals who were referred to as Melungeons (specifically the group from East Tennessee) had a specific origin, and that is covered in the article. Fanciful stories enter into the picture, most probably without any evidence or truth, but that is part of the story. In many cases it is possible to document genealogy and genetics to determine the facts. Badagnani 07:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I do not believe the Hatfields and McCoys to represent an ethnic group distinct from their neighbors. The Melungeons, on the other hand, were "othered" by their neighbors, which is borne out by historical records. They did their best to fit in, inventing notions of their being "Portuguese" or from some other lands. The history exists and we cannot simply ignore it, but instead do our best to determine and present factual information about it. Badagnani 07:42, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Look at ethnicity. It is a very loose term. Antonio Banderas is Mexican, not Spanish. Chiss Boy 13:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

A rural ghetto does not constitute a separate ethnic identity. It is a subculture, like Greenwich Village. Why do certain individuals with no establishment of their own, get their own article? It's like Halle Berry or Barack Obama trying to get notoriety (or on the social register and using the One_drop_theory#Reverse_one-drop_rule) based solely on having a White mother and Black father, rather than her acting ability or his political astuteness. Come on, let's put this in proportion: Some small towns in the Southern rural areas of Appalachia, have a degree of racial intermixing that is similar to New York or Los Angeles...and the point of that is?!

So the Manson Family is a group of outcasts that thinks they are angels. Do we believe them, or ignore them, or consider them loonies, trapped in a fantasy and try subsequently to avoid them? Les Invisibles 07:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, there are numerous other so-called "triracial isolate" groups in various parts of the United States, some of which have their own articles. The Melungeons have for over 100 years been a noted, much written about, romanticized, hotly debated subject, and as such are notable. It is not a subject that just emerged in the last few years or due to the Internet, as you implied earlier. I don't believe the Manson Family would constitute an ethnic group or identity in the same way; bad example there. Yes, cities have lots of racial intermixing but in Appalachia, once the indigenous people had been cleared out, the strongly Middle Eastern-looking Melungeons were an anomaly, and caused a lot of speculation. Badagnani 07:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Explain how a few isolated communities in the sticks, happen to be their own collective identity...other than "the others" apart from the majority... Is Mariah Carey her own ethnicity, or part of an ethnicity? Ms. Carey is considered a blend of a couple different ethniticies. She is not part of an ethnic community, but part of more than one or having none specifically. The "rejects" do not constitute their own people. They never have and never will, because that's just human nature. Les Invisibles 07:57, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The "rejects," as you term them, can indeed form their own people. Look at the Roma, or the Ashkenazim. Both groups were discriminated in Europe, and formed their own identity. Chiss Boy 13:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

What does the Westford Knight or Kensington Runestone mean to you? Do you know how to call "Bullshit", when you see it? Do old stories told around a warm log fire entertain you, or cause you to research them with undying belief in old wives tales? Les Invisibles 08:02, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the article speaks quite clearly to the history. Have you read it straight through? If you had, you probably wouldn't be claiming that the Melungeons' history is comparable to that of an R&B singer whose heritage is well known. What you say just doesn't make sense. The Melungeons were, as the sources show, often regarded by their neighbors as something "other," and somewhat of a mystery regarding their origins. They probably would have wanted to fit into the Appalachian/American society as a whole but the racial attitudes and policies of the time did not allow it 100%. Badagnani 08:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm just telling you straight up: "I Want To Believe". I'll see you at the crash. I'm a mystery, at least until I open my mouth. Les Invisibles 08:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

No urban or rural myth should stand in for facts. I'm sure Sasquatch really lives in Sasketchewan. All the locals seem to believe it, perpetuating their neighborly fantasy. So the only possibly mixed-race folks in Appalachia are notable? How boring. Les Invisibles 08:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I know what: I'm blacker than black, so my neighbors must be crackaz fo' sho! HOW PRIMITIVE! Les Invisibles 08:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Southern Europeans are Blacks?

That is definitely reaching. Haven't any of you ever seen this map? It shows African heritage in Europe, especially in the Mediterranean countries. Wikipedia also lists haplogroup or haplotype A1 as being sub-Saharan African and found in Northern Britain. There's nothing special about the Melungeon claims in the slightest. Also, we all know the proclivity of isolated groups in the rural South. "Kissing cousins" is an infamous reputation. When groups hold a very internalized breeding practice, they concentrate their own genes in this small pool. Whatever strains they inherited become very obvious. Many people think that Mediaeval European interbreeding was limited, but it was not. Depending on the types of connections one had, they may have intermarried internationally. This all trickles down from the top. I know that through certain ancestors of mine in England, they descended from Spaniards, Italians and even Greeks. This is because nationalism and isolationism was a product of the Protestant Reformation, which cut the largely Nordic countries off from Southern Europe. Western Europe as a whole was already cut off from Eastern Europe, because of the Turks. The other important thing is though, the degree of intermarriage between "White Christians" and "Non-White Pagans". This happened in Spain for sure and was a contributing factor in the Spanish Inquisition. These all seem to be mental blocks about race, textured by religious distinctions way back when. Surely, the Turks are not "pure White", but the Moorish and otherwise native Mediterranean genetic composition from African and Arab shores is already within all Europeans by the time of Charlemagne. After all, we hearken to the Greeks, Romans and our religion is based upon Judaism. It would be a serious problem to contest the racial flow between the Nile and Aegean, as well as that between West Africa and the Pillars of Hercules. Besides, just because Whites have this blood in them, doesn't make them non-White. This article is extremely dated in its world view. Les Invisibles 05:47, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, it is said that genetic genealogy tests cannot especially differentiate between Mongolian and American Indian heritage. They could have picked it up from Russian, Ukranian or other East European ancestors in Medieval Europe. Time is never a factor in these tests, because they have no way of judging its place in relevance to specific genealogical additions. What we have here in this article, are a swarm of self-serving assumptions. Have you never heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy? Les Invisibles 05:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong, as in some cases they can indentify when populations split off from each other. That's how they have been able to identify movement of peoples.--Parkwells (talk) 22:26, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Mongoloid. Mongolian is a term describing things related to Mongolia. Chiss Boy 13:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


Have you never heard of the Vandals? Do not their story and racial experiences sound eerily similar to the preconcieved notions of the Melungeons? What a coincidence! Vandalia colony was a proposal for this exact region of Appalachia where the Melungeons supposedly live. This false people should be seen for who they really are, which is anybody but the long lost Vandal tribe. Look here...come one, come all: Charlotte_of_Mecklenburg-Strelitz#Evidence_of_African_ancestry. Another "coincidence". It's nonsense, I tell you once again! Les Invisibles 06:05, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

And once again, if people are isolated in some way for a duration of time, they can form their own group. All mankind has common descent, yet over time new cultures have popped up, and those people a bit more closely related to each other than to other people start to have unique physical traits. Chiss Boy 13:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Les Invisibles, you should either be banned from posting or just stop, b/c you have nothing positive or insightful to say. and you obviously don't even know what you're talking about. Have you never heard of BioGeographical Ancestry? obviously Time IS indeed a factor. some random Asian genetic influences from a 1000 years ago are not going to show up on such a test. the tests can be used as a timetable in addition paper-trail genealogy in pinpointing time and origin of ancestors. and how about you lay off of Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, ok?75.117.164.162 00:47, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Les Invisibles, look at this.

About the Metis people (Canada). Chiss Boy 14:00, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Pardon if I've done this incorrectly. The Cold Springs Harbor Laboratory has an on-line eugenics archive exhibit that contains information that would be of interest to those studying Melungeon history. http://www.eugenicsarchive.org/eugenics/list3.pl Overall this Wikipedia article was informative and was of value to me. LDRobertson 12:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Wikipedia policy prohibits original research by editors.Verklempt 15:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for article's author

Well done article. One suggestion: could you include the pronunciation of "Melungeon" somewhere in the first para? Is it a hard or a soft "g"? Thanks. 66.26.79.152 13:47, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[email removed to prevent spam, please see history]

[edit] Goins surname; Irish or German

http://www.ancestry.com/learn/facts/fact.aspx?&fid=10&fn=&ln=goins

Because we see that there is an "Arch Goins" (featured in the photograph), that means they are Scotch-Irish (Northern Irish). Archibald is a Scottish name and Goins is an Irish name. How enlightening...they are no different from their neighbors. Neustriano 16:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

It means only that some people in the paternal line had the name Goins and may have been of Scots-Irish origin, not that all were. Also many different individuals adopted popular given names from the chiefly English/Scots-Irish general population.--Parkwells (talk) 22:09, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Goins can be of English, German, Belgian, Irish and even a variation of French origin, based on NY Passenger Records. Ancestry.com gives Irish and German as two main origins (Oxford Dictionary of American Surnames). But that only identifies one generation of many.--Parkwells (talk) 22:28, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hashaw's Theory of Melungeon origin

Tim Hashaw, in his MALUNGU: The African Origin of the American Melungeons and in his book The Birth of Black America: The First African Americans and the Pursuit of Freedom at Jamestown (Carroll & Graf, 2007) argues that the original Melungeons were not the offspring of white southern plantation owners and black slaves, but were instead the offspring of slaves whose master's ship was attacked by two pirate vessels that eventually transported 60 or so Africans to Virginia. He claims that these Africans arrived in Jamestown in 1619. Is this theory worth presenting in the article? I'm just curious why it isn't mentioned here. Is Hashaw not considered a good source? Griot 22:14, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about the book you reference, but his documentation may be lacking. Paul Heinegg went back to original court records and deeds, and did 20 years of meticulous work to trace families in colonial VA and their descendants. As is noted in this article, and in his book and website, Heinegg discovered that most of the families of free people of color in colonial VA were in fact descended from unions/marriages between white women (indentured servant or free) and African men (indentured servant, free or slave), not white plantation owners and slave women. This reflected the fluid nature of relationships among the working classes before slavery's lines had hardened. He also was able to demonstrate how descendants of these families migrated to frontier regions in VA, NC and SC, as the article points out. People have to read this article.--Parkwells (talk) 14:26, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Further, Heinegg found that 80% of "other free people" in the 1790-1810 census of North Carolina were descended from African Americans who were free in Virginia in the colonial period. As noted on his website and in his book, and in this article, most of those free people of color were descended from marriages/unions between white women and African/African-American men, among the servant and working classes in VA.--Parkwells (talk) 22:02, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:12, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sentence in opening paragraph that keeps being reverted

Hello, All.

I'll try to clarify here, in much more depth than in edit summaries, the reasons I see for some changes that I made to a sentence in the article's introduction and some that I didn't make but would like to see made.

Old:

"Tri-racial" refers to populations of mixed (1) European, (2) sub-Saharan African, and (3) Native American ancestry, and "isolate" refers to "genetic isolate," that is, a group that has maintained to some degree a distinct ethnic identity, though is not necessarily isolated in a geographic or cultural sense.

Suggested new:

Tri-racial describes populations of mixed (1) European, (2) sub-Saharan African, and (3) Native American ancestry; isolate is short for genetic isolate (a group that has maintained a distinct genetic identity but is not necessarily isolated geographically or culturally).

1. It is in accordance with WP:MOS to use italics when mentioning words or short phrases as words or short phrases.

2. It is more concise, and less ambiguous, to write about what a term describes, rather than what it refers to. When we refer someone to the library, it's not at all the same as our describing that person or the library. While describes is a single word of two syllables, refers to exhibits a 100% increase in words and a 50% increase in syllables.

3. It is more concise simply to join the two independent clauses with a semicolon than to use a comma and and; even with and, the comma is better replaced by a semicolon because the independent clauses on each side of it also contain more than one of their own commas.

4. It is more accurate to say that isolate is short for genetic isolate than to say that it "refers to" it.

5. It is against WP:MOS to place the comma after "genetic isolate" inside the quotation marks.

6. While the ", that is, " construction may be common among some writers and stylists, it involves more assailable punctuation, in two ways: (1) it joins two independent sentences ("'isolate refers to 'genetic isolate,'" and "that is, a group that has [* * *]") with a comma; (2) it places a comma between the verb "is" and its complement ("a group that has [* * *]"). Replacement of this construction by a simple pair of parenthesis, and the removal of "that is", eliminate the run-on sentence and the questionable comma, while shortening the sentence, maintaining the meaning, and increasing clarity (especially for readers unfamiliar with the ", that is, " construction, who may view the "that" as a relative pronoun starting a relative clause, rather than a demonstrative pronoun introducing an independent clause).

7. The wording "to some degree" is unnecessary, because "some" here includes the entire range of maintenance, from anything microscopically above 0%, all the way up to 100%. Unless we are going to specify a degree or a narrower range of degrees, we may as well leave it out. Omission of "to some degree" is exactly as ambiguous as its inclusion, but removes extraneous words.

8. The more precise meaning of ethnic is akin to that of cultural. Use of ethnic as a synonym or euphemism for racial and/or cultural is imprecise and ambiguous and may be seen as political correctness; it is even commonly used as a synonym for non-white (in terms of race, genes), non–Anglo-American (in terms of genes and/or culture), non-Anglo (ditto), &c.

The point about Melungeons is that, while they may partake of, adopt, and (somewhat) even descend from, the culture, the ethnicity, of any human group on Earth, they are genetically distinct ("to some degree"): they have some genetic/racial distinctions that differentiate them from the more 'plainly' white population, from the more 'plainly' black population, and from the more 'plainly' Amerindian population.

With this more careful definition of ethnic, quite close in meaning to cultural, it's illogical to say that Melungeons have maintained a distinct ethnic (i.e., cultural) identity and that that maintenance is "not necessarily isolated" (i.e., not distinct) "in a [* * *] cultural sense" (i.e., is not an "ethnic identity").

This vocabulary distinction is well recognized in scientific literature, as well as publications of the United States Census Bureau, which specifically emphasizes, for example, that the ethnicity sometimes called Hispanic is independent of race and can occur among black persons, white persons, &c. (i.e., persons of any race (genetic group)).

Also, aware that some readers may imagine a broader concept of race than I intend in this paragraph, I specifically wrote the article sentence to use the word genetic, rather than racial, in a further effort to raise clarity.

9. The use of "though" is odd; "but" is less so and is shorter.

10. It is more concise to say "isolated geographically or culturally" than to say "isolated in a geographical or cultural sense".

Except the ethnic/genetic distinction, the changes I have made are not "major conceptual redefinitions". And even the ethnic/genetic change is one of increasing both accuracy and precision. With the less debatable meaning of ethnic, there is a glaring contradiction in saying that Melungeons are ethnically distinct but that they are not distinct culturally (i.e., ethnically).

Anyway, I've made the case to the only degree to which I intend to make it. These days, I haven't much time for such discussions at Wikipedia—so I leave it up to you other editors. Thanks, though, to anyone who read my points and considered them.

President Lethe 04:34, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Suggest a new article on "tri-racial isolate." It's too much detail for the Intro to this article, and totally unsourced.Verklempt 19:22, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

A single sentence defining the meaning of a critical part of the definition of Melungeon is "too much detail" for the intro to an article whose title is "Melungeon"? But this single sentence should become a separate article, requiring readers of the "Melungeon" article to follow a link to read a one-sentence article?

I'll put in the sentence as I rewrote it last night, with a few words to clarify that there is uncertainty about the three races, and a source to cite.

If this single sentence really overwhelms intro readers, it can be moved to a later part of the article.

President Lethe 03:38, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Although it is a vast improvement on the nihilistic article that preceded it, this one doesn't give any references more current than 2005. There have been a number of studies and conferences since then. There is even a new Melungeon DNA ethnotyping study. The subject of Melungeons is becoming less confused and controversial as several published academic (and not amateur or hobbyist-oriented) studies are being accepted. The latest scholarly publications are not noted here.

Not sure how to sign —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.222.225.46 (talk) 02:52, August 22, 2007 (UTC)

If you have new sources to add, please do so. The Melungeon DNA Project is referenced near the end of the article, and so far supports Heinegg and DeMarce's work - that this group is descended primarily from European and African ancestors. --Parkwells (talk) 22:05, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology (!)

"Mel'un Can" is spelled with an apostrophe in Turkish, and it does not derive directly from Arabic. Can (Djim, Alif, Nun) is a Persian word meaning soul. So the composite is Arabo-Persian, not totally Arabic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.212.100.31 (talk) 01:48, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Don't add material without sources

This article is well-documented. Please don't mess it up by adding anecdotal, unsourced information.--Parkwells (talk) 20:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Refs

Much better than before. Find a ref for the citation needed tag. You need more refs. You have many paragraphs with none and the rule of thumb for FA is every para needs at least one ref. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:16, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Seminoles as a triracial isolate group?

According to "Lies My Teacher Told Me Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong" by James W Loewen, "The Seminoles did not exist as a tribe or nation before the arrival of Europeans and Africans. They were a triracial isolate composed of Creek Indians, remnants of smaller tribes, runaway slaves, and whites who preferred to live in Indian society." page 151 2007 edition 69.23.106.111 (talk) 02:44, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tennessee Encyclopedia of History and Culture entry on Melungeons

I live in Tennessee and love obscure historical puzzles − whether they relate to my home state or not. So I'm surprised that I had never heard of Melungeons until last week when I stumbled upon an entry in my hardbound copy of the Tennessee Encyclopedia of History and Culture (full text available online!)while looking up something in the "Memphis" entry. It mentioned the Turkish legend, which just freaking blew my mind.
My non-NPOV: My first memories of life on this planet were in Turkey (US Army brat) and I just finished listening to Lars Brownworth's awesome series of Podcasts on the Byzantine/Roman Empire, which fell to the Ottomans just as the European-based voyages of discovery were beginning, and I'm a fan of Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle novels, so, tamam, I was definitely "wanting to believe" in the notion of chai-swilling Ottoman castaways being tripped over by unsuspecting backwoods Dick Van Dykes in 17th Century Appalachia.
But since my copy of the encyclopedia was printed, the longer online version of the Melungeon article was edited to remove references to speculation about Turkish words and dress (turbans and flowing robes) in Cherokee culture. [It was not the author's speculation; she was merely documenting it]. The online article's tone and conclusions generally match the current [April 23, 2008] Wikipedia article, while still giving the reader permission to be entertained by the romantic legendswithout feeling embarrassed about it. By the way, it includes bibliographic references not used by Wikipedia editors. Bridgman (talk) 15:49, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

The Turkish hypothesis is pure nonsense. It originates with Brent Kennedy, an extremely unreliable source.Verklempt (talk) 17:45, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Yep. In fact, I double-checked my hardcopy of the Tennessee Encyclopedia and found that the original article had not been edited, but in fact replaced with a completely different article from a different author. The original author was none other than Brent Kennedy. The new article [the online version linked above] was written by the Tenn. Historical Society's executive director (I'm guessing that, burned once, they didn't want an outside contributor to handle the rewrite)Bridgman (talk) 13:30, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it's fine to be entertained by romantic legends, but Paul Heineggs' careful documentation of facts is a wonderful story, too, about how people made their own choices in relationships and marriages, were smart enough to migrate to the frontier where they could mostly live in peace, and found a third way between the barriers of race that some erected.--Parkwells (talk) 17:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. Now I have to recall everyone I've infected with the bogus Ottoman story in the past week and set them straight.Bridgman (talk) 13:30, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
All people interested in this topic should really read Paul Heinegg's "Free AFrican Americans in VA, NC, SC, MD and DE", available as a book and online at www.freeafricanamericans.com. You need to see the careful marshaling of facts.--Parkwells (talk) 19:50, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Collins family in VA

The material interjected on the Collins family refers to a source on angelfire that discusses oral family tradition, that an ancestor was "probably Saponi Indian", not historic documentation in the form of records that a specific individual was of the Saponi, or any other, tribe. This is not historic documentation. The source goes on to say that the Collins "were living as Indians" in VA. That was just Heinegg's point, that these free families of color moved to the frontier and "identified as Indian" to evade some of the racial strictures of the day. The later documentation cited in the angelfire source shows that Collins people were in areas where Heinegg has also shown them. The reference to an 1890 interview is also relying on a family's oral tradition, but it is also consistent with their "choosing to identify as Indians", rather than being descended from them. It's not appropriate to have family oral history mixed in with the scholarly research of Heinegg and Marce. The Collins family could participate in Jack Goins' Melungeon DNA project and see if there is a direct line of patrilineal descent from Native American ancestors.--Parkwells (talk) 13:11, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I read the article again and see that one or more Melungeons with the surname Collins have completed the DNA testing and found that their ancestry was specifically European and sub-Saharan African, which is consistent with Heinegg's research, and the paragraph as it appeared before the insertions by a Collins descendant based on oral tradition. That's more reason to revert to the previous form.--Parkwells (talk) 13:27, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I was assuming the info was OK when I changed from the angelfire ref to {{cn}}. If it's disputed, it should probably be reverted back to the last version by Aramgar until a proper source is provided. --Onorem♠Dil 13:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Someone else is going to have to deal with this editor. He added back his material in the middle of the Heinegg-DeMarce section for the third time; he does not use this article's Talk page and apparently has not read our discussions here; and he has threatened me with "legal action" on my Talk page, also accusing me of "racism" since I have worked on other articles related to African Americans. I'll refer him back to this page, but have had enough of this.--Parkwells (talk) 19:23, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I moved the Thomas Collins material down to the Legends section, under the account of Everett first hypothesizing Saponi Indian descent, and the later refutation of this theory. Also noted a cite was still necessary. This section also refers to Dromgoole's work, and the angelfire article cited by the Collins descendant refers to Dromgoole's 1890 book. It was too confusing just to revert it (because of other edits), but now the section on Heinegg and DeMarce deals with their research alone. Also, everyone should note that the DNA Melungeon Project that Jack Goins is coordinating (last paragraph in this article) has done some testing of one or more people with Collins surname, and the evidence shows only European and sub-Saharan African descent. This is consistent with the research by Heinegg and DeMarce.--Parkwells (talk) 14:02, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

==Melungeon==These comments were on my user Talk page. Other editors will have to explain to this person. I'm not dealing with him any more.--Parkwells (talk) 19:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Your past revert to my Direct family lines of the Collins and Gibson families is unacceptable. I have added a reference link which lists many sources and was wrote by my good friend and Melungeon researcher JACK GOINS....this is clearly stated along with the email to Jack Goins on the reference link. If my reference is NOT allowed then all the other references that was taken from my good friend JACK GOINS has to be removed. This Collins and Gibson that is mentioned on the Melungeon wiki page is my direct blood line. Please respect that or do not edit it anymore. The first recorded record of the mentioned Collins line was that they was native americans....John Collins was a indian being sold for stealing pigs in Virgina (Saponi indian to be exact), that is word for word what the virgina court records state. My father looks 100 percent native american and that is exactly how all the other ancestors look following the William and John Collins line all the way back to louisa county VA. I have photos of both of these direct lines from today all the way back to the 1800's....all native american.....court records from the early 1700's all the way to current time list these 2 lines as native american...John and William collins was the brother to Thomas Collins......there has never been a single document or record which shows african heritage to John nor William's line....court records state they was native american and census records list them as mulatto or white....there was no single listing for native americans on census records so native americans was listed as mulatto or free person of color on census records.....anyone NOT white was listed on census records as free person of color. In fact the grandson of William Collins went to a native american school and became one of the most famous preachers in NC and SC..his name was Drury Dobbins. There is 11 guion miller applications from 1898 which all state drury Dobbins was native american.....the applications was filled by the Dobbins and hollifield families. Respect my family and stop attempting to steal my ancestor's native american heritage......other wise it is going to appear to be racism and I will be forced to have my lawyer contact the owner of Wikipedia and inform the Owner himself of this matter, I am pretty sure since you currently have a listing on your page about "african american" then that will help prove the fact that this is starting to look like racism. I know Jack Goins personally and he even says the references to his stuff has been misused on the Melungeon page to a point to only reflect African american and to not use any of his Native american research...this is proved by how you removed my reference source to Jack Goins' official records on my Collins and gibson family....you removed it stateing it is not sourced but yet you keep Jack Goins other sources on the page. Does not look good on your part and I'm sure my Lawyer (who is also from this Collins and Gibson line) would defiently be able to use it in court. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.38.213 (talk) 19:01, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

This anonymous editor's first legal threat made in edit summary to Melungeon article (10:09, 28 April 2008 24.30.38.213). Second legal threat made on user Parkwell's talk page (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Parkwells&oldid=209952706).Verklempt (talk) 22:19, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

The DNA tests if you talk to the people doing the DNA tests would know our DNA projects are to find which lines belong to which Collins lines. There is 4 collins lines that was in America. There was 2 John Collins. One is associated with the historic plantations of NC. Which this line has been proven by hisorical societies of NC to not be related to the Thomas, John, or William collins which came into Orange county, NC from Louisa and Orange counties VA. The plantations collins are from the Josiah line which this family had Collins family that was brought from Africa to their plantation which has been proven thru official records. It has also been proven thru VA court records which can be found at the National archives that the Thomas, William, and John collins of Louisa and Orange county was Indians. the Virginia court records for VA further states that John Collins was a "indian being bought at the court house for stealing hogs". It is also proven that Thomas Collins' line went into Newman's ridge Tenn, however John and william Collins left North Carolina. It has also been proven thru government records of the USA that William Collins of Louisa and Orange county Va's grandson Drury Dobbins received his schooling from the Indian schools. And thru old South Carolina news paper articles on Reverned Drury Dobbins during the 1800's that he was Native Amercan and was the grandson of William collins of Louisa and Orange county VA.

Also thru various articles from DNA experts is has been stated that ALL humans contain a Sub African DNA....it's widely known as the Adam and Eve theory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.38.213 (talk) 11:11, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

It has also been stated in over 100 books and ANY national archives employee or Census records expert will clearly tell you before starting any Census resarch that ANYONE not white would be listed as "free person of color" and ANYONE who was mixed with whites was listed as Mulatto. If a Asian was living in NC,VA,GA,SC ,etc etc then they would in FACT (it's a proven fact) be listed as "free person of color".

I have all my records in order, ALL my government records have the Government stamp, and all my other signed documents from Experts on the subject have been notarized along with sign affidavits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.38.213 (talk) 11:23, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

The material interjected on the Collins family refers to a source on angelfire that discusses oral family tradition, that an ancestor was "probably Saponi Indian", not historic documentation in the form of records that a specific individual was of the Saponi, or any other, tribe. This is not historic documentation. The source goes on to say that the Collins "were living as Indians" in VA. That was just Heinegg's point, that these free families of color moved to the frontier and "identified as Indian" to evade some of the racial strictures of the day. The later documentation cited in the angelfire source shows that Collins people were in areas where Heinegg has also shown them.::

Not only was Oral history on that site...but ALSO and the BASIS of the info on that site was Government documents....the smallest ammount on that site was oral....so is there some reason you decided to leave that part out of what you typed? hmmm. They was identified as indians to evade.....ok so your saying that virginia courts and other officials just decided to name people they had no blood realtion to as Indian so these families could evade...come on now...whats in the court records clearly shows "Indian" is what the court themselfs labeled them. "indians being sold for stealing hogs".......maybe your also not aware that indians was the first slaves in america...and during the 1700's it was common to find indians working on plantations and inside the houses of plantations as slaves. Thats another interesting point you forget to add huh. Wikipedia clearly states theories are not to be used when editing pages.....so why post a "theory" that has no documentation to back it up...and then remove Evidence which DOES have documentation to back it up. So until you come up with a government document that states John, Thomas, or William Collins of Louisa county and Orange county VA was African....then sorry your pushing theories and that is frowned upon by Wikipedia and is grounds for removal. And stateing John collins' descendants' dna did not show Indian...too bad you forgot to add that the John collins line that was tested was from the Josiah collins line which is from the Collins plantation of NC which has been proven by historical societies working with the Collins plantation to have NOT been the same John Collins which was in Orange county and Louisa county VA. Now since after looking at your talk page...I see mostly topics on AFRICAN AMERICAN stuff......so now you would look pretty silly if you was trying to sell a book on your theory which has no legally usable documentation to back it up...then up walks the family you wrote your book on...and that family looks 100 percent native american. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.38.213 (talk) 00:25, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Out of Africa Theory

Since I'm sure people here are getting confused about the truths of DNA, this should bring people up to speed on what the EXPERTS state about DNA tests which states ALL humans have Africa traces in their DNA. http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/02/21/africa-human-dna.html http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=4325494 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070509161829.htm http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news255.htm http://www.jqjacobs.net/anthro/paleo/genome.html http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~allpoms/genetics4.html

Y-chromosomal DNA Main articles: Human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroups and Haplogroup F (Y-DNA) The mutations defining macro-haplogroup CR (all Y haplogroups except A and B) predate the "Out of Africa" migration, its descendent macro-group DE being confined to Africa. The mutations that distinguish Haplogroup C from all other descendants of CR have occurred some 60,000 years ago, shortly after the first Out of Africa migration.

Haplogroup F originated some 45,000 years ago, either in North Africa (in which case it would point to a second wave of out-of-Africa migration) or in South Asia. More than 90% of males not native to Africa are descended in direct male line from the first bearer of haplogroup F. (North Africa being sub African). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent_single-origin_hypothesis#Y-chromosomal_DNA

There is what the Experts have to say on both Y DNA and M DNA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.38.213 (talk) 11:42, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comment from the above unsigned IP editor

I left a comment on the IP user page asking the editor to use this Talk page for any comments on the Melungeon issues, but the person has sent another message to my personal user page, which I've moved to this page below. The IP is for a general Comcast address (?)that may be used by more than one person.--Parkwells (talk) 11:59, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

  • =John Collins==

There was 2 john collins, One which was from the plantations of NC. The historical societies which are over these plantations have admitted this was a different john Collins.

The John Collins of louisa county and Orange county VA....has been PROVEN thru Virginia court records as being a Indian being sold for stealing pigs.

Please know the history before stating false accounts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.38.213 (talk) 10:49, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Free person of color on Census records

http://www.mitsawokett.com/Plecker.htm

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~CAP/POCA/POC_law.html

The term "Free Persons of Colour" first appeared during colonial times (1600-1800s). It was applied to a variety of ethnic people, to include Black, Native American, Portuguese, Sephardic Jews, Greeks, Romanians, Moors, Arabs, Asiatic Indians* and Pakistanis* (*who were here as early as the mid 1600s from England, usually as indentured servants), and varied others including mixed races. The common denominator was skin darker than Northern Europeans. The term "colored" generated from this catagorization, to mainly indicated those of African ancestry, but to include any person of darker complexion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored

[edit] Racism

Now that I have added the above topics to clearify the truths....now I'm going to add what the legal definition is on Racism.

the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life

A person should over look a in depth look at what racism is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

Apprently since my direct blood line ancestors are being attacked here..I thought it would be right for me to add this topic on Racism, since apprently a few people here are attempting to deny my families' native american blood. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.38.213 (talk) 12:37, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Slander/Libel

Now that all the above is understood....and since this page is attacking me personally by talking about my grandfathers and grand mothers....and how it is clear anything I add to my forefather's section tends to be deleted due to it mentioning our native american blood...this is directly attacking me, since this page is PUBLIC....well I think it is time for me to express what the law states on this.

A type of defamation. Slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community. Because slander is a tort (a civil wrong), the injured person can bring a lawsuit against the person who made the false statement. If the statement is made via broadcast media -- for example, over the radio or on TV -- it is considered libel, rather than slander, because the statement has the potential to reach a very wide audience. http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/Term/85BAB88B-0660-4AB6-A2F5C32E716A6D52/alpha/S/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.38.213 (talk) 12:42, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/libel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.38.213 (talk) 12:44, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WP:RS and copyright issues

First, I have no personal preference on the text being inserted/removed by the editors on this article, I'll let everyone else here resolve those issues. My only issue is the source used and how the external links are used per WP:EL. Specifically, the AngelFire source that is being inserted has three issues: first, it's self-published personal webpage. Second, claims to be written by Jack Goins, while he is a reliable source - his material is at jgoins.com. The AngelFire page is likely a copyright violation if copied from that source as there is no evidence that it was copied legally - the original should be found a jgoins.com and that used as the ref. Third, per WP:EL, external links should not be within the body of the article except when used within "ref" tags - while the source for the material could easily be inserted within ref tags once a version with clear copyright can be found - the links to images should not be reinserted within the body of the text. If the copyright holder permits it, the images could be uploaded to the Mediawiki commons; or if the source has a page showing all of the photos, they could be linked from the External Links section. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 14:29, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't have any position on the material being inserted, except that it should have a separate paragraph and sourcing apart from the Heinegg-DeMarce material, since he has a different conclusion. Perhaps you could work with the editor to show him how to do appropriate sourcing/citations.--Parkwells (talk) 15:33, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Resolution on Collins family issues

How about the following as a paragraph, to go after the one on Heinegg-DeMarce research in Origins section? Or wherever concerned editors decide as a satisfactory resolution? I think it should be separate as it relies on different sources and comes to different conclusions than do Heinegg and DeMarce. Heinegg, DeMarce and Goins do all agree on placing Collins ancestors in early Louisa Co, VA. I have created a citation directly from Jack Goins' copyrighted website, and used most of what the unsigned editor contended.--Parkwells (talk) 16:14, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Jack Goins and some Collins family descendants rely on family tradition and oral history that their forebear Thomas Collins was descended from Indians in Louisa County, Virginia, "probably Saponi". In addition, they note the identification of their ancestor John Collins as "Indian" by the Orange County Court, when he was one of a party charged in the mid-18th century. They believe John Collins was one of Thomas' sons or brothers. They note also that Native American-European people were classified as mulatto in some early records, as were European-African mixed-race people. Because of that they believe some accounts of their origins are flawed. They believe there likely was not any intermarriage of Collins family members with African Americans until after Collins' descendants migrated from Virginia to North Carolina.[1]
What purpose does this para serve? This article cannot address the genealogy of every crank who believes in Melungeon mythology. It's especially problematic when we present this mythology uncritically, without noting that it doesn't fit the data. There is no need to have any of the Collins stuff in there at all.Verklempt (talk) 20:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for finding a more appropriate source. For the ref tag, I suggest a minor format change to:<ref>{{cite web|url=http://jgoins.com/old_thomas_collins.htm|title=Old Thomas Collins of Flatt River|author=Goins, Jack|publisher=Jack Goins' Research|work=Melungeon and Appalachian|year=2006|accessdate=2008-05-04}}</ref>. It's just a more structured and more standardized formatting. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:38, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Saponi indians

Capt Tom named specifically a Sapony indian. http://aventfamily.org/taveltr.htm

"and if Capt. Tom was hanged they would carry their wives and children over the Roanoke River and then they would drive the white people and negros as far as James River, and he says that Tony Mack told him that if Pyah was hanged he and the Cotobers would come and take revenge of the English, and he says that Sapony Tom told him if his son Harry Erwin was hanged they would kill you and three or four more Gentlemen and then go off," The original document is held by the Virginia Historical Society, Richmond, VA and will give you a copy of the original. Unless you call the Virginia historical society liars.

"Alexander Machartoon, John Bowling, Manincassa, Capt Tom, Isaac, Harry, blind tom, Foolish Jack, Charles Griffin, John Collins, Little Jack, Indians being bought before the court for stealing Hogs. , Ordered that their Guns be taken away from them till they are ready to depart of this county, they having declared their intentions to depart this colony within a week." http://www.jgoins.com/old_thomas_collins.htm

Them are the official Government records....can be found at any national archives building. I have plenty more records as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.38.213 (talk) 22:44, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

To take this alittle further. The Bowling's are the well known descendants of Chief Powhatan of the Powhatan tribe, The Powhatan was the neighbor tribe to the Saponi, The Powhatan lived 4 counties to the right of Louisa county VA. It is also very well known that the recorded Saponi words did in fact have borrwed words from the Powhatan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.38.213 (talk) 22:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)