Talk:Megali Idea

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Greece Portal This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Greece, an attempt to expand, improve and standardize the content and structure of articles related to Greece.
If you would like to participate, you can improve Megali Idea, or sign up and contribute in a wider array of articles like those on our to do list. If you have any questions, please consult the FAQ.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale. (comments)
High	This article has been rated as a High priority article
Additional information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked

	Turkey Portal This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Turkey, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Turkey-related topics. Please visit the the participants page if you would like to get involved. Happy editing!
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
	edit · history · watch · refresh To-do list for Megali Idea:
No to-do list assigned; you can help us in improving the articles in the same category

	It is requested that a photograph or photographs be included in this article to improve its quality. Wikipedians in the following regions may able to help: Greece Turkey
	The Free Image Search Tool (FIST) may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites.

It is requested that a map or maps be included in this article to improve its quality. Wikipedians in Greece or Turkey may be able to help!

[edit] POV

The article is a target for fanatic POVs. It is becoming anti-Greek propaganda. Phrases like "Greece did not manage to occupy Smyrna, Imbros, and Tenedos from Turkey" or "she also was not capable to occupy southern Albania" from user 213.100.205.98 are POVs, undocumented and horrible English language. --Spryom 10:57, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

The image in the top-right is not the Megali Idea. The true Megali idea would have included the Dodacanese/Rhodes/Megisti (currently Greek), southwestern Asia Minor, full control of Cyprus and the straits, and also northern Epirus, northern Macedonia, and Pontis. The image shown here is merely territory that the Treaty of Sevres declared to be "Greece".

[edit] NPOV

The whole article needs to be reworked. In my opinion there is only a weak link between recognition of borders with Albania and the Great Idea. In other words was the Great Idea the driving force behind belligerency and non-recognition of borders? Moreover, the whole term 'Great Idea' is associated in most historic accounts to the pre-World War I, Greek foreign policy. Is it justified to call every expansionist or revisionist attempt of Greek-Foreign Policy, irrespective of the ruling regime (republic-dictatorship) 'megaloideatic'? A propos Cyprus, it could be as well be called 'right-wing extremist policy'. Is there any special theory in international relations that provides that any maximalist tendency in Greek foreign-political objectives is to be characterised as 'megaloideatic'? To sum up, does hypothesizing about links between the Albanian borders and Megaloideatic beliefs, promote our understanding of modern greek foreign policy? I have contributed these questions in the discussion and would expect new entries and adaptations made in the article to reflect solid evidence or at least a sound argumentation on the issue, and not abstract or even corrupt clauses as it is now. Donnerstag 15:13, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, this article is terribly written and it is not yet NPOV. February 28 2007

[edit] Macedonia

Should the controversy on the name of Macedonia be mentioned?

Probably not, because more than 90% of Macedonia is wqithin Greece's borders. There is a separate page about the name controversey...

[edit] First Picture

The picture is wrong. The map is not the Megali Idea. The Megali Idea included nearly what once Byzantium posessed. The Map is about "Greece of two Continents and five Seas" a country which no more exists. User:panosfidis

Absolutely true. It must be possible to locate a better image. I've removed it for the time being since it is just misleading. Valentinian ^(talk) 12:11, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether or not this is public domain, but if you scoot on over to http://www.geocities.com/t_volunteer/greece/megali_idea.htm you will find a proper map of the Megli Idea. Ignore the text underneath it though, it's all racist propaganda!! Any wiki member should be able to upload it to this page, we hope.

Here's a map of Greater Greece and Greater Serbia. --Tēlex 13:20, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Your link doesn't lead to anything.....

This page seems to have an artist's impression of the concept: [1] (ignore the rest of the page, and click the link called "Paint of Megale idea" (second paragraph, second line from the bottom). Regarding a "map" the second image on this page might be better [2] (ignore the rest of the page, it is propaganda as well). Valentinian ^(talk) 10:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's another take on it, although admittedly the phrase "Megali Idea" is not used...

http://enotitanpride.tripod.com/ellada/

18 August 2006

I double-checked the link, and it must be this picture Telex tried to link to. Valentinian ^(talk) 09:08, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed image

The expansion of Greece from 1832 to 1947, showing territories awarded to Greece by the Treaty of Sèvres but lost in 1923 under the Treaty of Lausanne (click to enlarge).

I've removed this image because it didn't appear to be of the Megali Idea. Rather, it just looked like the history of Greece's borders. Keep in mind that the goal was to encompass all ethnic Greeks. This would mean the Pontus, Cyprus, and part of Sicily would have to be on the map, right? —Khoikhoi 22:48, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I have uploaded one of the images discussed earlier on the talk page. It doesn't include all of the Pontos region, but it is the best I can think of. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 23:18, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! —Khoikhoi 23:32, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

You can't really see that picture, can't we use something like this?--Tekleni 10:54, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I see your point, but the problem with that image is that Pontos is missing and North Epirus/South Albania isn't indicated very well. Secondly, I am a bit uneasy about the big Turkish lettering given the sensitivity of this topic (I have no idea about its contents, I speek neither Greek nor Turkish.) Khoikhoi, you have a point about Sicily (or even Magna Græcia), but I don't think it was that common to include them as well. But I think that we need to include Pontos somehow, since this region tried to secede during the 1920s mess. Perhaps, it would be better to draw a new image. The only problem with that solution is that any such drawing could turn into a never-ending edit war, so it would be really great (no pun intended) if we could find a good contemporary image - this probably means 1880s-1912. As I see it, the ideal picture would probably show Greece with the pre-1912 borders, and (shaded differently or whatever) Macedonia, Thrace (W and E), Epirus (including N Epirus), Crete, Rhodes and the other Aegean Islands, Cyprus, Constantinople/Istanbul, plus Western and North (eastern) Anatolia. But that is just my interpretation of the term. If somebody draws a map, it would naturally have to include the current frontiers of Greece as well. Cheers. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 11:29, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

So, we want a map explicitly including Magna Graecia and Northern Epirus. The only one I can think of is this one (I found it above, although as states, it does not specify that it is the Megali Idea). Additionally I think that one goes a bit too far.--Tekleni 11:37, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if my post was unclear. I think Magna Græcia is normally not included but that all of Epirus would probably be. I agree that the image you point to is pushing the definition too far. At times like these, I wish I knew how to read Greek ... Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 11:41, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think a map should include Souther Italy as there was never really any serious movement to incorporate Sicily and Southern Italy into Greece. These are almost no native Greeks in Sicily, and only a few tens of thousands in Calabria and Magna Grecia, and most of them are Catholic, not Orthodox.

There is the famous image which I think should be used, of Greece's 1922 borders, with Constantinople and Nicea, and with a picture of Venizelos. It is on the cover of Ionian Vision.

-Alexius Comenenus

Agree completely that we should exclude Southern Italy. You are right that the other image is more famous, sure, but AFAIK the image you're referring to shows both Nicea and Constantinople/Istanbul as part of a international zone, not as part of Greece (although the two red signatures are too close to each other that the artist probably thought this was a technicality.). I still hope it will be possible to find a good map dated before the Balkan Wars, since such a map would not have been influenced by later events (in 1912-13). It would also show more clearly the difference between the suggested Greek state and the state as it looked before the Balkan Wars. Such a map must exist somewhere. Btw, does anybody know who created the image used on the cover of "Ionian Vision" and what its copyright status is? Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 09:31, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Megali Idea according to me

Enlarge to see regions of the eastern borders

The Megali Idea would have classic Epirus, Alexander's Macedonia and Ancient Thrace as the northern most borders. This would be moving Modern Greece's border 0ver 60km towards the north and including European Turkey. In Asia Minor the eastern-most regions would include Bithynia, Phrygia, Pisidia, Lycaonia and Cilicia. Obviously Cyprus would be included, and also Pontus. Unsure if the region between Pontus and Bythinia would be included, but most likely. I have edited a Byzantine Empire image showing all this. Most of these regions had Greek minorities until the 1920s (and some regions even had majority Greek populations)--Maggas 09:18, 21 October 2006 (ACST)

[edit] Still stuck without an image

It looks like we're still stuck without an image. How about if we find an old ethnographical map of the Balkans and Anatolia (e.g. from Shephard's atlas), add the pre-1912 border of Greece and use an image description like "The Megali Idea was a politicial vision to include all regions of Greek settlement within the Greek state (shown in orange on this map. Compare with Greece's actual borders shown in blue)." Or something along those lines. This would get us out of problem about demarkating a border that never existed on the ground. I'm not sure how old the M.I. was in a political context, but the border shown on the map could also be Greece's first border from the 1830s. Would this sound acceptable? Valentinian ^{T / C} 11:28, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Influence on foreign policy?

"Respect for independence and territorial integrity of all neighbouring nations has been a cornerstone of the foreign policy of the Greek Republic. Respect for the territorial status quo was mentioned on a number of occasions by Greek authorities as a reason for Greece's refusal to participate in the 1999 NATO bombing of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."

How is this related to Megali Idea? True, this entire article seems to have been edited to the point of being completely worthless, but this specific paragraph seems to be completely out of place.Zambetis 13:18, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No references

Added the unreferenced template, since the only reference is to a deleted Wikipedia article.  DOONHAMER | BANTER  23:44, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map?

Elsewhere(on wikipedia!) one finds this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ParisPeace-Venizelos-Map.png

Is this relevant to Megali Idea?

[edit] Opposition to the Megali Idea

The section titled "Opposition to the Megali Idea" has a misleading title. The fact that Greeks in Pontos wanted to create an independent state was a practical solution at the time and if the Greeks had been successful in Asia Minor in 1919-1922 bordering Pontos then the two Hellenic states would have achieved their own "Enosis" (union). So the Pontians were not opposed to the Megali Idea at all. That title needs to be renamed or has to be made into another section called "Former or current Hellenic states" along with Cyprus, but it cannot stay the way it is.--Waterfall999 12:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map of the Megali Idea

The map needs to include all of modern day Greece and Cyprus, most of FYROM and Bulgaria and well as southern and coastal Albania, all of Thrace, most of modern Day Turkey excluding south-eastern and eastern Turkey, including Pontos, Cappadocia, Cilicia, Turkey's Hatay province (which includes Antioch), as well as coastal Romania, coastal Georgia, some of Crimea, and Alexandria. It would include Sebastea (Sivas) and Caesarea (Kayseri). So it would be easier to use a map of the Byzantine Empire and edit out Serbia and Bosnia. I'll see if i can make one.--Waterfall999 13:36, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong name

Megali Idea is not an English name for the policy in question but a Greek one (despite the pointless "Greek translation" at the beginning of this article. This is the English wikipedia and the name in the article needs to be translated into English. Deipnosophista (talk) 20:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Megali Idea is the term used, although the literal translation is indeed the "Great Idea", which is displayed at the top of the page. It was a Greek concept and therefore has a Greek name. Changing the name of the section would make as much sense as translating all foreign words used in English. No one would ever translate "Luftwaffe" as "Air Weapon" so why would we change "Megali Idea"? Mentalbasedoninstrumental (talk) 18:08, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edit Cyprus

I suggest severly editing down the Cyprus paragraph and re-phrasing it. Politis (talk) 17:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cleaning + Expanding

I have tried to clean the article by "massive" POV-s, moreover I tried to put some order the sections, but I am not sure how this article should be structured....

Here is my proposal:

• Fall of Byzantium/Constantinople
• Greece under the Ottoman Rule
• Greek War of Independence
• Nationalism in politics in 19th century (during that time Nationalism was strong in Europe)
• Cretan Revolt + First Greco-Turkish War 1897
• Realization of Megali Idea
  • Eleftherios Venizelos
  • Balkan Wars
  • WWI
• Decline of Megali Idea
  • Second Greco-Turkish War
  • Big Catastrophe (i.e. Destruction of Smyrna)
  • Exchange population
• Interwar period

... etc

So... any opinions/comments, suggestion or even references? A.Cython (talk) 01:41, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I have placed sections according to the above plan + made requests for expanding some of the sections... I will try add staff whenever I can!A.Cython (talk) 22:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)