Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-02-11 Parkour

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Wikipedia Mediation Cabal
State: Open
Requested By: S.dedalus (talk) 22:55, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Other Parties: S.dedalus, Carlosguitar, Undaunted, Feraess, Billscottbob, 87.61.141.109,
Mediated By: Vassyana (talk · contribs)
Comments: Discussion taking place. Suggestions given. Questions asked.



Contents

[edit] Request details

[edit] Who are the involved parties?

[edit] What's going on?

There is a heated dispute over whether a criticism section should be included in this article, whether criticism should be merged into the text of the article, and if so how much. I originally wrote a criticism section [1] (Please scroll down, I created the section in multiple saves) but this was reverted by User:Carlosguitar. I have not attempted to restore it yet because I do not want to start an edit war. The dispute continues on the talk page however. The dispute can be found there under #Safety and response to criticism section and also partly in #Categorizing as a individual sport —Preceding unsigned comment added by S.dedalus (talk • contribs)

Nothing was reverted. I removed the undue weight that you did and summarized the use of unreliable sources talking about supposed unsafeness and dangerous on parkour. I am striking your comment. Carlosguitar (ready and willing) 09:12, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
You removed the section and added a token sentence to an inappropriate place in the article. If you like the word "removed" better that’s fine. --S.dedalus (talk) 04:27, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What would you like to change about that?

I would like to find a compromise that satisfies all parties and maintains a NPOV in the article.—Preceding unsigned comment added by S.dedalus (talk • contribs)

[edit] Mediator notes

[edit] Administrative notes

A few things to keep in mind while considering this article:

  1. We should avoid commenting about other editors, focusing on the content.
  2. We are required to provide sources for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged.
  3. We are expected to cite those sources, including page number when applicable.
  4. Sources used should be broadly considered to be reputable and reliable sources of information.
  5. We should not focus on "balanced" presentation, but rather report what reliable sources have stated in proper proportion. (If most sources are "balanced", the "majority view" of the article should be "balanced". If most sources are critical, the main view presented should be critical. And so on.)
  6. Information reported in only one reference, or in an extremely limited number of sources (relatively speaking), should probably not be included in the article.
  7. Broadly reported information (whether negative, positive, balanced or neutral) should be included in an article.

[edit] Suggestions

  1. Build a modest collection of sources about the topic.
  2. Avoid discussing or debating issues.
  3. For the topic, discuss only what the sources collected discuss.
  4. If the reliability or reputation of a source is disputed, please explain the reasoning calmly, politely and in as short a fashion as possible.
  5. Bear in mind that separate criticism sections are generally discouraged. It is encouraged for critical information to be included in the main body of the article, where appropriate. (For example, if multiple sources discuss the danger of a particular environment or of particular moves, it would be best to include such information where the article discusses such environments/moves.)

[edit] Questions

  • Is there any agreement about a "legality" section? What should and should not be in such a section? What sources are available to support such a section?
  • Is there any agreement about how to include health issues and concerns? How should that material be handled? What sources are available to support such information?
  • Is there any agreement about how to categorize the pastime? What sources are available to support categorizing the pastime? How should conflicting reports be handled?

[edit] Discussion

[edit] The Dispute About Parkour

Parkour is defined in Websters New Millennium Dictionary of English as follows: parkour

Part of Speech: noun Definition: a recreational pursuit in which participants traverse urban structures by running, jumping, vaulting, rolling, etc. Example: A young man who practices parkour is a traceur; a young woman who does this is a traceuse. Etymology: 2002 Usage: also parkourists (n.) Webster's New Millennium™ Dictionary of English, Preview Edition (v 0.9.7) [2] to verify Copyright © 2003-2008 Lexico Publishing Group, LLC


The debate, as I understand it, is between those who think of it as a sport, those who think it just an athletic endeavor, and still others who find it a nuisance.

If all sides are to be presented then there should at least be a list of pros and cons, consequences for the community, and a note toward the obvious hazard involved to discourage anyone who is not under mentor ship or otherwise highly trained.--Izivkovi (talk) 19:14, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Izivkovi, there was a dispute about the nature of a sport and how that would pertain to the categorization of this article. However at the suggestion of a neutral third opinion I dropped this issue, at least for the time being. The dispute at the moment is about the inclusion of a criticism section. Thanks for the help though. --S.dedalus (talk) 06:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I am a participant in a Parkour league. It is most certainly a sport. Park Crawler (talk) 03:48, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Please cite reliable sources for your claim. By the way, parkour should be represented on a worldwise view, not by a local community view. Carlosguitar (ready and willing) 12:14, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Umm. . . that doesn’t mean you decide what goes in the article Carlosguitar. --S.dedalus (talk) 04:25, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Since when I said "what goes to the article is decided by me"? Do you understand what is verifiability, original research, synthesizing material and undue weight or not? Carlosguitar (ready and willing) 04:54, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Please don’t be condescending. Other users are perfectly free to state their views regardless of sources. --S.dedalus (talk) 05:34, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Since when I said that "users are not free to state their views"? That is still about verifiability, and if a statement is unverifiable after research it is considered original research, and I think you misunderstand it. Carlosguitar (ready and willing) 05:46, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Whether or not we use the word “sport” in the article is primarily a matter of semantics. It is commendable that users such as Park Crawler help build consensus through discussion. Sources are not commonly required to prove that a single word should go in an article. --S.dedalus (talk) 05:56, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Do not talk about "a single word should go in an article" when we were always discussing about definition and categorization of parkour as a sport. You are wrong if you believe that it is only a matter of semantic and sports are non-competitive. Yes there is a lot of difference by defining parkour as recreational pursuit, verified by Webster's New Millennium than parkour is a sport, an original research. As I said before, start getting consensus on Talk:Sport to change the "wrong definition" of sports. Carlosguitar (ready and willing) 06:28, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comment on Mediator notes > Suggestions, No. 5

I realize this. However I believe that 1.) Criticism of parkour is widespread enough to justify a separate section, 2.) While I would be satisfied with a NPOV representation of the criticism and response merged into other sections of the article I do not believe “Movements” is an appropriate place for this information nor do I find another suitable location elsewhere in the article, and 3.) I believe criticism in mainstream media is pervasive enough to warrant a more detailed discussion within the article. --S.dedalus (talk) 06:45, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

  • Without endorsing one view or the other, they are general guidelines to work within. Such treatment as I mention in the suggestion is encouraged, not required. We are just as equally encouraged to use some common sense in our determinations. Vassyana (talk) 06:49, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
  • A criticism section makes false impression that parkour is more dangerous than traditional sports. There is no proof or even evidence that the rate of injury or deaths on parkour is more high than traditional sports. In 1979, Richard B. Chambers supervised six sports (american football, soccer, basketball, baseball, swimming, and gymnastics) and concluded that the risk factor in football was twice as high (1.72) as its nearest competitors, basketball (0.88) and gymnastics (0.85). [3] The risk-factor on parkour is unknown. [4] If American football is so dangerous why there is nothing in its main article? It seems to be another case of undue weight. Carlosguitar (ready and willing) 07:23, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
For on one thing, American football is a competitive mainstream sport; totally different from parkour. What consensus is on that article has nothing to do with consensus on this article. Secondly the American football article DOES talk about injuries.
Despite protective equipment and rule changes to emphasize safety, injuries remain very common in football. It is increasingly rare, for example, for NFL quarterbacks or running backs (who take the most direct hits) to make it through an entire season without missing some time to injury. Additionally, 28 football players, mostly high schoolers, died from direct football injuries in the years 2000-05 and an additional 68 died indirectly from dehydration or other examples of "non-physical" dangers, according to the National Center for Catastrophic Sport Injury Research.[11] Concussions are common, with about 41,000 suffered every year among high school players according to the Brain Injury Association of Arizona.
And
The danger of football and the equipment required to reduce it make regulation football impractical for casual play. Flag football and touch football are less violent variants of the game popular among recreational players.
Finally in the parkour article we must discuss the well documented media attitude and the concerns of some notable critics. I am NOT proposing any sort of risk assessment for the sport. It’s your opinion that parkour is not more dangerous than other sports, Carlosguitar. Many other very notable institutions hold a conflicting viewpoint however, and per NPOV we are required to write about other notable viewpoints regardless of whether we agree with them or not or whether evidence currently exists to support those view points. --S.dedalus (talk) 20:59, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
As can you see there is no criticism section on American football and the information is summarized same as on parkour. Yes American is totally different from parkour, it is a recognized sport while parkour is not, there is blatant competition which increase the risk of injury while parkour is a non-competitive activity. The point is not about consensus on American football it is about WP:UNDUE which is used for any article. Again the article does not talk about the benefices of parkour, so there is no problem with neutrality. Soccer was featured without any statement about safety and risk factor. It is not only a matter of opinion, it is about verifiability. You must WP:PROVEIT if "Parkour has got to be the second most criticized activity/sport after skate boarding" and "Parkour often draws criticism for motivating untrained children to attempt unwise drops or vaults". Please do not mix legal issues with risk issues, I am not against inclusion of legal issues, I am against your attempt to represent the risk of parkour by undoing weight with unreliable source based on anecdotal evidence. No we are not required if there is undue weight and sources are unreliable. Yes, there will be a health issues section with properly studies about parkour as User:Undaunted and me requested. If some day parkour become competitive it will be categorized and defined as a sport without doubts. Carlosguitar (ready and willing) 02:46, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Please read my original post above. I am not necessarily asking for a criticism section, merely an unbiased representation of the facts. You weren’t talking about a criticism section in your last post: “If American football is so dangerous why there is nothing in its main article?” As you can see editors DID decide to include information about football’s risks. In any case we can do something different in Parkour. How exactly do you consider sources such as the BBC and a peer reviewed medical journal unreliable and anecdotal evidence? I will prepare an abstract of the available sources. There are many. --S.dedalus (talk) 05:48, 14 March 2008 (UTC) Edit to add. That sentence you quote “Parkour often draws criticism etc.” was from the talk page, not my criticism section. I am perfectly free to voice any personal opinions I please there. What do you mean “legal issues”? Trespassing allegations and such? --S.dedalus (talk) 06:31, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Again they are currently represented in the movements section, and two editors want only a health issues with properly studies about parkour. There is no fact here, there is only opinions, beliefs and anecdotal evidences, they are all unreliable to talk about the "facts" of parkour, which is done with careful studies. No you made clear that want a huge criticism when you said that "Criticism of parkour is widespread enough to justify a separate section". I will not repeat what said on Talk:Parkour, but two editors explain how peer reviewed medical journal is misleading and unreliable. You are free to say anything, but you cannot use original research and synthesis of material trying to address the issues with WP:UNDUE. Legal issues are related to training in private and public places, where some people are criticized by damaging these places, but generally these people are not considered traceurs. Carlosguitar (ready and willing) 08:47, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Actually I think I can decide what I want and don’t want. I have stated many times that I am willing to compromise, but you must meet me halfway. On the her hand three editors have stated their support for a criticism section. If we could for instance add criticism in a similar manor to the football article that might be a solution. The sources listed bellow include three scientific studies. Could you give me a source to justify your statement that people who damage property are not traceurs? --S.dedalus (talk) 20:14, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Seventeen reasons why we need a criticism (and response to criticism) section

Sources
Ref. No. Link Source Description
1 [5] BBC Rooftop-jumping youths arrested (police warn of dangers, legality)
2 [6] Times Online addresses safety concerns, describes parkour as “extreme sport”
3 [7] Colombia Missourian “It is dangerous, but danger is everywhere,”
4 [8] thisisgloucestershire.co.uk FOUR teenagers from Stroud have been arrested on suspicion of causing criminal damage. . . police warn of danger
5 [9] Cambridge News Rooftop jumpers risking death
6 [10] Daily Vidette U. Illinois student dies after fall from broadcast tower, suspected parkour stunt,
7 [11] Idsnews Student banned from parkour, school warns of liability, also legality, dangers
8 [12] Journal of Orthopaedics Case study of injury sustained from parkour, warns of danger
9 [13] Time magazine parkour injuries reported to United Educators Insurance, schools fear lawsuits
10 [14] The Journal of Foot and Ankle Surgery Parkour: A New Extreme Sport and a Case Study.
11 [15] Neuropsychiatrie de l'Enfance et de l'Adolescence (journal) scientific study finds a positive link between parkour and narcissism
12 [16] DVDfeed describes parkour (apropos of video game) as “semi-suicidal French sport”
13 [17] thisisgloucestershire.co.uk firefighters warn of parkour and free running dangers
14 [18] The Times of India expert traceur falls and nearly dies during movie shoot
15 [19] Sleaford Standard “people taking part in Parkour are damaging property”
16 [20] Sleaford Standard “Police say the craze, which has increased in popularity in Wrexham, is dangerous and it is only a matter of time before someone is seriously hurt. . .” "The game of jumping from buildings and structures is extremely dangerous. . .” etc.
17 [21] Gazette Internet Edition Fire and Rescue Service warns of dangers

--S.dedalus (talk) 07:19, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I have requested comment by WP:SPORT participants. --S.dedalus (talk) 07:32, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia is not place for advices, how-to, disclaimers, essay, etc. The propriety place is Wikibooks. Especially for sources 13, 17.
  • Extreme sport is a original research term, often used as POV and without any scientific basis. List of extreme sports and Category:Extreme Sports were deleted.
  • Talking about children or adults who were injured or died is WP:UNDUE, since this happen on almost any activity. We still need careful studies to talk about factual danger.
  • "Parkour is the Art of Moverment. Not the Art of Movement by jumping off buildings." by User:Amishbhadeshia. Due to accessibility, strength and mental training needed, absolutely the minority of practitioners go to buildings.
  • Well researched articles like The Washington Post and The New Yorker, not even talk about "dangerous parkour" and if they talk, they made clear that injuries on parkour are rare as Mark Toorock and the director of the American Sports Medicine Institute states "We have not seen any injuries from parkour or freerunning that I know of. It's not even something that has come to our attention at this point." on The Washington Post.
  • On the contrary to soccer and American football, where there is always a risk to become seriously injured by rival players at any match. Parkour is a dicipline or art that is based on control. Rarely traceurs does what they cannot control, that is way the rate of injuries is equal or minor than soccer or American Footbal. Mark Toorock explains it on The Washington Post.
  • #6 This source made clear that "very rarely you might try to move up a building as quickly as possible, but climbing something that tall is a completely different thing," and "Police are looking into a possible connection between Fu's death and parkour, Christensen said, but he added that his affiliation does not necessarily show cause of death." It is not possible to know the cause of death and members of I-Parkour Facebook states that going to tall places is not considered part of parkour.
  • #7 You need to talk about it on University of Illinois not on parkour. It is clear explained on WP:UNDUE. This source also contains lots of inaccuracy and unfounded claims. "Le Parkour involves a series of complicated moves" walking, running, climbing or even vaulting are never considered "complicated moves". What basis to claim that parkour is dangerous activity? One thing is ban a person by damaging and trespassing private propriety another thing totally is ban someone by doing "dangerous things".
  • #9 Same about source 7. I also quote User:Undaunted who is Tyson Cecka of report: "I was in that TIME article and trust me, it was not well researched".
  • #8 and #10. They are not careful studies only isolated reports of person who got injured doing parkour or free running. A careful study is a long-term study with multiple traceurs and scientific method where report if the legs, heels and ankle of these traceurs got more strong or damaged during the time of study such as Skateboarding: More Dangerous Than Roller Skating or In-line Skating. As I said before, people get injured on anything. If you want to write that a person was injuried doing parkour or free running, you need to do it on his/her bibliography not by undue weight of parkour.
  • #11. I read the summary of source and did not see any criticism. Why is it related to criticism?
  • #12. It is a source that talks about a video game, totality unreliable, biased and unfounded to talk about danger of parkour. Obviously children are attempting to suicide when doing parkour at playgrounds.
  • #14. The question is: was Dean doing parkour or stunt for a film? It is clear that he was doing stunts and most of stunts are not considered parkour. A example is Jackie Chan who is a stuntman and do not carrier traceur in his description.

Carlosguitar (ready and willing) 23:48, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Thanks for your analysis of the sources, Carlosguitar. I’m still review your post and will reply shortly. My question is, do you have a problem with creating a “Legality” section? I see no other place in the article where this information on this could go. --S.dedalus (talk) 07:18, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

No problem, I already said to you not mix health issues with legal issues. But if you are going to write it, make clean that people who damage proprietaries are not considered traceurs. Carlosguitar (ready and willing) 00:21, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I will make that clear if you provide a source for that statement. --S.dedalus (talk) 23:15, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
It is quite simple, traceurs do not damage or destroy the proprieties because they need of them to practice and train. Amish Bhadeshia and Andreas Kalteis, explain it well. Unfortunately there are vandals in everyplace. By the way Dedalus, you should read carefully the words by Amish Bhadeshia. Carlosguitar (ready and willing) 10:06, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Touching base

What areas of disagreement remain? Have any further sources been found? Vassyana (talk) 06:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

It depend on what Dedalus wants. I also want to make some points:
  • Parkour is not an activity of jumping or climbing buildings. If there is some concerns about buildings it must be summarized to not create the undue weight that parkour is art of jumping the buildings.
  • The majority of traceurs, adults and children do parkour on the ground. That is how parkour article must be represented.
  • If parkour becomes competitive, it will be something like Sasuke Obstacle Curse, also know as Viking: The Ultimate Obstacle Course. Therefore categorizing parkour as a sport is original research.
  • The Lantern article address some misconceptions on parkour such as "it is commonly miscategorized as a sport" and "common thought that parkour is an extreme sport is far from the truth".
Carlosguitar (Yes Executor?) 07:52, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
In the next few days I will write up a short section on legality, including high profile trespassing arrests (source no. 1 and 4), accusations of property damage (source no. 7 and 15), and Carlosguitar’s suggested refuting sources for that above. I also think at least one more sentence could be added about concerns of danger in the “Movement” section. If these terms are acceptable to all, then I’m satisfied that the article will meet NPOV criteria. I still disagree with the removal of the individual sport category (individual sports are not true sports), but in the interests of harmony I’m willing to concede this point, at least until a time when a more lasting consensus can be met. --S.dedalus (talk) 22:40, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Sounds good. Would you mind doing it in a subpage here (such as /draft001)? I look forward to your draft. I would ask that you both bear in mind, while we work through this process, that regardless of what is "true" about parkour that we must present the topic as it is presented in reliable sources and that there's plenty of space available to present all significant published views on the activity. Cheers! Vassyana (talk) 23:29, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I’ve written a VERY early draft of the legality section in that subpage. I’m really busy in the real world right now, but I’ll try to improve the section this week. (I particularly need to add proper references.) --S.dedalus (talk) 04:52, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
No worries. There's no deadline. :) Thanks for touching base. Vassyana (talk) 06:16, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Touching base again

Could people provide a bit feedback about the draft section? Why is it a good proposal? Why is it not? How can it be improved? Vassyana (talk) 07:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

One problem with section written by Dedalus is the potential of adding every new or previous cases of vandalism and police conflict, causing the section to become very large and unbalanced. Another problem is that the section really does not talk about legality, which are the legal places to practice? Is parkour recognized by any organization? It is more a news report of vandalism and police conflict. I think that it is possible to improve the section. Carlosguitar (Yes Executor?) 07:58, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I think it would be useful to be more specific in the draft section about what it is that is considered illegal. None of the sources mentioned have suggested that parkour itself is illegal, nor have any I've ever seen, but at the moment the draft reads as though it is parkour itself that has questionable legality. Also, I don't think the point of view attributed to parkour practitioners in the final paragraph is a response to the issue of legality and so needs removing and a suitable response adding. I think it would be better to reduce the size of this section, given that it is not directly related to parkour itself, and instead of spending a lot of space re-writing the sources in the article simply use them as references to support much shorter statements.
"Parkour practitioners have been criticised in the past for trespassing on private property and the possibility of practitioners causing criminal damage (ref 3), however there is agreement from both officials(ref 4) and the parkour community (refs 6,7) that this sort of behaviour is not to be encouraged.
There is also the concern that practitioners are needlessly endangering themselves as well as property by practicing at height, with both police forces and parkour figures calling for practitioners to stay off the rooftops (ref 4).
However, these issues do not appear to apply to the majority of practitioners whose relationship with authorities is generally a positive one (ref 5)."
I feel this reflects the sources used in the existing draft, and the facts, more accurately. Feraess (talk) 15:36, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi Feraess, thanks for participating, I added your section to /draft001#Legality section 2, it is better, but needs some fixes. What do you mean with "parkour figures calling for practitioners"? I think parkour figures is redundant to police forces. I will try to find more sources related to legality, but I do not know if I will able to find them. Carlosguitar (Yes Executor?) 09:41, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't think 'parkour figures' is redundant, because saying that it is the view of parkour community is a completely different point from saying that it is the view of people in the police force. You need to mention the practitioners' view, because otherwise it gives the impression that safety is being ignored by parkour practitioners, which is neither correct nor an accurate reflection of the sources. If you can think of a better way of saying it then feel free to make suggestions but this section needs to represent the issue and sources accurately.Feraess (talk) 12:32, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I feel adamantly that the part about universities and insurance concerns should be included in the final section. --S.dedalus (talk) 00:42, 11 June 2008 (UTC)