Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-09-02 Economy of Paris

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Wikipedia Mediation Cabal
State: Closed

Requested By: THEPROMENADER 14:47, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
Mediated By: Pheonix15



Contents

[edit] Request details

[edit] Who are the involved parties?

User:ThePromenader and User:Hardouin + Single-user accounts quite obviously those of Hardouin.

[edit] What's going on?

It's very simple. The references cited in the article use an officially-translated terminology, but the article uses a quite inventive other; the latter is the oft-reverted-to imposition of User:Hardouin.

[edit] What would you like to change about that?

Use the official translations present in the cited documentation. Do away with doubtful "study" sections (that I consider WP:OR) that insist on placing countries "above" others - in comparing regions that don't even exist in some of them - this has been discussed and accepted, but has returned. I would also like an end to the blanket reverting to "former versions" of a single user - User:Hardouin - by himself and (obviously suspect) sockpuppets alike.

[edit] Mediator notes

Seem's a fairly straightforward case--Pheonix15 18:27, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Administrative notes

[edit] Discussion

The fact of the matter is quite simple and in the very sources used to cite the article: "urban area" is the official translation of the aire urbaine,[1] and of course should be used to describe the same. The "metropolitan area" imposed so often on the article as a "translation" of this term (this in spite of the existing official translations) has nothing at all to do, in either measure or conception, with an aire urbaine - and this is the very reason that the very official INSEE (the organisation that created the aire urbaine) has never used it as a translation in any of their English documentation - they use "urban area". The fact that we should use official translations, for verifiability and later cross-referencing, is basic common sense. Cheers. THEPROMENADER 19:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Promenader insists that we translate the French term aire urbaine as "urban area" in English, which is a lazy and faulty translation. The definition of the aire urbaine is a built-up area and the municipalities surrounding it that are not physically attached to the central built-up area but where more than 40% of people commute to work in the central built-up area. This is exactly the definition of a metropolitan area, i.e. a large built-up metropolis and its adjacent zone of influence, usually defined as a commuter area. An urban area is a different thing, it is only a built-up area excluding the commuter area around it. In French an urban area is called unité urbaine. So if we translate aire urbaine as "urban area" in English, we're basically using the wrong term and misleading people.
Furthermore, the translation of aire urbaine as "metropolitan area" in English is quite established as you can see from the following sources:
  • in this paper from the Grenoble district of the French Ministry of Education, we find the following sentence in the introdution: "Thématique :Réaliser une carte sur les aires urbaines (" Metropolitan Area ") supérieures à 500.000 habitants de la périphérie des Etats Unis ." Note that this paper is destined to geography teachers in the high schools of the Grenoble region.
  • this academic paper from the University of Lyon which translates its French title "Modèles économétriques des configurations des aires urbaines françaises" as "Econometric models of spatial urban structure : the case of French metropolitan areas" in English
  • this study from the Political Science Institute of Bordeaux and the USC in LA is called "Towards an Americanization of French Metropolitan Areas ?" and deals with the "aires urbaines" as specifically stated in their introduction.
  • this case study about Lille by the labour department of the European Union specifically says this: "Population of the metropolitan area (aire urbaine) is 1,140,000."
  • this article from the Canadian Journal of Regional Science translates its French title "Forme urbaine et mobilité : une application à l'aire urbaine de Bordeaux" as "Urban Form and Travel Patterns. An application to the metropolitan area of Bordeaux" in English.
  • in this paper written by academics from France, Canada and Catalonia, we find this sentence on page 14: "Finally, we also allocate each municipality to its metropolitan area (‘Aire Urbaine’) when there is one or classify it as rural."
Hope this clarifies things for the would be mediators on this case. Hardouin 22:25, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Like I said elsewhere, most of the above are a selective pick of studies attempting to make some sort of "international comparison scheme" - and the purpose of this very selective list is to back a narrow POV - or "justify" the borrowing of another country's terminology for France's own; this is neither in the interest of reason or fact.

The official English translation of aire urbaine is "urban area", and proof of this can be found on the very organisation that created the aire urbaine, the INSEE, here. Lazy and faulty indeed. This same organisation, a peerless integral part of the French government, has never used "metropolitan area" as a translation for their aire urbaine in any of their English documentation, so I don't see how one Wikipedian can claim to know better than they. The correct and referencable official translation is readily available, so use it. THEPROMENADER 22:44, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Both sides make some reasonable points. Is there not a compromise solution that could include both translations? For example, you could write: "urban area (the original French term is translated by some scholars as 'metropolitan area')." This solution would preserve the official translation, while also acknowledging the relevance of the alternative translation.Verklempt 07:42, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the input. This is exactly what I attempted before, in putting "metropolitan area" in brackets after "urban area" at the first occurance in the article (as "urban area" in brackets after the term pôle urbaine used by French administration), but this was effaced several dozen times already. Please also be reminded that "urban area" has a different definition in almost every country it is used - we cannot just select our favourite version (from another country) and try to make an article on another country "conform" to that - France has its own very real and well-defined definition of this term.
The fact of the matter is that the very defined aire urbaine and vague "metropolitan area" have little to nothing in common (despite a few "essays" published here on that subject"), and this is exactly why the INSEE doesn't use it as a translation - the official translation is "urban area".
I don't mind using "metropolitan area" as an explanation, but not alone as a proper name and proper translation that it is definitely not. THEPROMENADER 08:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Verklempt. Thanks for looking into this. Perhaps you'll be able to reason ThePromenader. "Urban area" is not the official translation of aire urbaine. The only official language of INSEE is French, like any other French administration. If this was, say, the Canadian statistics office and they translate something from French into English, then yes you could say it is an official translation, but here it's important to understand that it's just one civil servant with a not so good level of English who attempted to translate the INSEE website into English. If you check the English version of their website, you'll see many errors and awkward ways of saying things in English.

Here the person who made the translation just made a lazy translation, because aire indeed literally means "area" and urbaine literally means "urban", but that's just what it is, a lazy translation, because an aire urbaine is really a "metropolitan area" in English, that's quite clear from the definition of it, and scholars with a better knowledge of English did not fall into that trap. It's a bit as if the civil servant had lazily translated librairie as "library" in English, even though a librairie is in fact a bookstore and not a library. You see what I mean? Here at Wikipedia we ought to inform people and not copy errors found on government websites with lousy translations. Hardouin 18:15, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

 ??? I really can't believe the goal of User:Hardouin. How can he deny that that "urban area" is the official translation, when the evidence is right there in front of you? Not only is the term "metropolitan area" not present as a translation on the very aire urbaine "definitions" page - where can you find the term "metropolitan area" in any of their English documentation as a translation of aire urbaine? Not once.
Are we to assume that, by the obviously placed translation in their own website, that they made a mistake? Are we to assume that, because the INSEE has never used "metropolitan area" as a translation of aire urbaine that they are - delusional? - and this, because their methodology counters the opinion of - one wikipidian? Does he really expect that we will listen to the wishful "reasoning" of one Wikipedian and not verify the facts as they are - and doubt even these at their official sources? User:Hardouin in two words: get real. THEPROMENADER 18:49, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Why not rid of both terminologies with a purposefully chosen words that avoids any possible confusion? Whether urban or metropolitan either are open to confusion with definitions that vary from country to another and from a language to another with certain areas ignored and others taken into acont depending on the definition (the ONS is an example of how an area can be arbitrarily ignored). Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 06:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mediation

Promenade, the first point I'd like to raise before we continue is your accusation that hardouin is using multiple meatpuppets. Please do not do this in future as it assumes bad faith.

Having read through the arguments you made above, It appears that metropolitan area is correct translation, however, the use of "urban area" really isn't a big deal. The compromise put forward by Verklempt appears to be a good idea; "Urban area (The original French term is translated by some scholars as 'metropolitan area') or possibly "Metropolitan area (The term is translated by some as 'urban area')"

I'd like to hear what the involved parties think about this--Pheonix15 18:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

As for the meatpuppet accusations - again, the coincidences are too many - one editor, one revert to another editor's version, only hours after the edit war began. Hardouin has admitted himself that he contacted many editors about his upcoming revert. I'm sorry, I would like to assume good faith, but for how long is this possible when I know that we both know the truth of the matter - we are both from the Paris region - and this story has been going on since two years now.
I really don't understand how you can conclude that "metropolitan area" is the correct translation of aire urbaine, when the offical translation exists, and that the very organisation that created the term has never used it as a translation in any of their English documentation - they use "urban area". Although the term's meanings differ from country to country, "urban area" is the official translation. Please verify for yourself. Cheers. THEPROMENADER 19:11, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, If you conclude that urban area is the correct translation, try to reach a compromise with hardouin over what should be used--Pheonix15 19:23, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
For the record - I also agree with User:Verklempt - put "metropolitan area" as an explanation after the official translation as to maintain verifiability yet provide clarity as to the ambiguous nature of the "urban area" term. I would even suggest using French aire urbaine as the correct term (in some places) with bracketed "metropolitan area" after - this would be quite clear yet correct for all situations and purposes. THEPROMENADER 19:32, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
It looks like we're well on our way to a compromise--Pheonix15 19:38, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Some input from hardouin would be appreciated--Pheonix15 19:40, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Having reviewed the article and its companion pieces, it is now clear to me that "metropolitan area" is the most accurate translation. In the article, the disputed term is often used to describe the metropolitan area, including municipalities external to the city limits. One piece of a compromise could be to write a short paragraph explaining that while "urban area" is the official translation, the term is often used to refer to the broader metropolitan region. Another part of the compromise could be to use "urban area" when speaking about matters within the city limits, while using "metropolitan area" when speaking about the broader metropolitan region.Verklempt 20:58, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Exactly how did you arrive to this conclusion? We are talking here about citing economics/employment sources here, so "sounds good" terms are not to be used, especially when the sources cited are explicit in their terminology. If they use a certain terminology, so should we. Our role after all is to publish verifiable information from cited sources - not create essays that ring (in this case, erronously) to the ear of those in countries foreign to the article. THEPROMENADER 21:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Consider the folloing passages: "Thus, out of the 5,089,179 people employed in the Paris urban area in 1999, only about 200,000 people (3.9% of the total) lived outside of it, which is not surprising since the boundaries of this statistical area is based on commuting patterns (see: aire urbaine). Well into the middle of the 20th century, the majority of jobs in the Paris urban area were concentrated in the city of Paris proper. However, after the Second World War the economic activity relocated to the suburbs, and the city has been steadily losing jobs to the benefit of the suburbs, in particular the Hauts-de-Seine (92) département, home of the new La Défense business district, to the west of the city proper. Today, the city of Paris is not properly speaking the economic centre of the Paris urban area since most of the offices are in fact located in the western half of the city proper and in the central portion of the Hauts-de-Seine département, forming a triangle between the Opéra, La Défense and the Val de Seine district. Hauts-de-Seine has become a sort of extension of central Paris, with 873,775 persons employed there in the end of 2005, more than half as many as in the city of Paris proper (1,653,551 persons employed in the city of Paris in the end of 2005).[9]"
This passage is continually distinguishing between the city proper and the surrounding region. The entire metropolitan region is described in the passage as the "Paris urban area." But in English, the definition of "metropolitan" is "Of or constituting a large city or urbanized area, including adjacent suburbs and towns." Clearly, in the passage I quoted, "urban area" is being used where American English speakers would say "metropolitan" instead. To substitute "urban area" for "metropolitan" is to potentially confuse American English speakers. The solution is to simply write an explanatory paragraph, as I suggested above.Verklempt 21:22, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Well, I'm sorry to say that, from your own point of view, with your local understanding, your interpretation may seem "reasonable" to your countrymen, but that is simply not enough to be a qualification as fact. The fact of the matter is that "urban area" itself has a different meaning in almost every country that uses the term - and the article is not there for American-English viewers only. If the INSEE has created some "confusion" for this latter group with their chosen translation for "aire urbaine", then it is not our role to "fix" (override) it by catering to one education or another - all we can do is take the source as it is, and do our best to add (whatever) to make it clear and understandable to all readers. It is very important to note that the INSEE chose not to use "metropolitan area" as a translation - there is very good reason for this, in the fact that the aire urbaine resembles little anything that (most) English-speakers understand to be a "metropolitan area"; this term is present nowhere in any of the INSEE English documentation as a translation for their statistic.
The compromise suggested earlier, as I stated earlier, it is both true to its sources and understandable by all. THEPROMENADER 21:43, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Verklempt does appear to have a point. Metropolitan area does make more sense, however, I am here to facilitate communication and help reach a compromise. "Metropolitan area (The term is translated by some as 'urban area')" makes sense and benifits all involved parties. Again, some input from hardouin would be appreciated--Pheonix15 21:37, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

You know, I'm really persuaded that using the original INSEE term "aire urbaine" followed by ("metropolitan area") ("... 95% of people employed in the Paris aire urbaine ("metropolitan area") resided in ...") would be the best solution for all. Nothing could be clearer. A second choice would be to use their translation - "urban area" - with the same sort of clarification. Thanks for your efforts. THEPROMENADER 21:49, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
If that's your opinion then we have closed this case without the participation of one side in a record time, a first for the cabal. ThePromenader, you truly seem to work towards the interests of the encyclopedia rather than your own--Pheonix15 22:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I was asked to provide input having lived in the region thus knowing first hand what the area is called. Although I could bore you with what I think would be a better term I think it's enough for me to say that ThePromenader is doing well without further input and is working not only to accomodate both parties but towards a compromise. As you were ThePromenader, good work. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 06:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)