Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-07-05 WikiProject Final Fantasy
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[edit] Request details
[edit] Who are the involved parties?
Renmiri (me) and User A Man In Black
[edit] What's going on?
I am appalled at the actions of aMIB, someone who has been trusted with Admin powers at Wikipedia in aiding the bullying of editors in the Wikipedia Final Fantasy project. I had heard that old timers from the project were leaving in droves thanks to bullying and came back to the project to try to restore civility to it. What I found done to me yesterday July 4th 2007 was very disquieting. In a conflict of opinion over the appropriateness of having minor character pictures in an article use aMIB, aided by users Kariteh and others proceeded to tag over 20 images with spurious claims, all the while refusing my pleas to keep the discussion civil and in the project page, the appropriate page since all 20 images have the basic inherent problem: their presence in an article page belonging to the project was disputed.
aMIB himself tagged over 10 images before he finally acceded to my pleas to discuss it on the proper place. It is obvious to me that I was singled for punishment with petty games of "let's tag someone's contributions" for disagreeing with someone. Had it been just one over enthusiastic user I would have let it go, but I find his conduct very unbecoming for someone with Wikipedia Admin access
I can now see why other editors left. aMIB, Kariteh and others who acted similarly have had a very chilling effect on good natured discussion on this project and others. Some editors, including one with over five FA articles on their belt left rather than stay and be bullied into submission by this heavy handed thuggish tactics. I had already called aMIB in using straw man in what was supposed to be a civil discourse, but this 4th of July events made me take the next step and post a formal complaint
I added a picture (right) to illustrate the extremes Kariteh and aMIB went to pursue my contributions, in spite of the fact that the images destination was being discussed here on the project page, leaving absolutely no need to go after individual images. Renmiri 21:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
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I first became involved when I noticed Renmiri's particularly hysterical and somewhat uncivil tone in dealing with Kariteh in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Final Fantasy#Fair use. Since I noticed that the subject was dealing with non-free images in an article, I figured I'd toss in my two cents, with my comment beginning with "I have no idea what's going on..." Renmiri proceeded to tell me that this issue was "fought and won already," with a link to this discussion, which I felt in no way dealt with the problems I raised, then immediately changed the subject.
The dialogue, in the #Fair use thread, continued to degenerate, in my view largely because of Remiri constantly changing the subject, constantly referring to Kariteh's efforts to deal with these images as "political," "petty games" "childish," and so on. The comment beginning with "Try harder..." was my last comment, as I actually investigated the situation and discovered how many images with extremely poor rationales (and, indeed, little potential for a valid rationale) there were. I went down the list of Renmiri's image contributions, noting many orphaned images, the many unneeded images inline-linked from Characters of Final Fantasy X and X-2, as well as some other problematic images.
I tagged most of these images with DFU (disputed fair-use; a tag for an image the tagger feels has fair-use problems) and orfud (a speedy-after-a-week tag for orphaned non-free images). DFU requires a rationale, and my rationales, while largely similar, were customized for each image. For example, the artbook images had WP:FUC #2 concerns, whereas the screenshots did not.
Basically, my DFU rationale was that the the characters list had 30+ images between the transcluded images and inline images (failing WP:FUC #3a), that the images were mostly of minor characters and thus not needed for illustration (failing WP:FUC #8), and the linked images weren't actually used in the article (failing [[WP:FUC #7 and #9). Additionally, the artbook scans directly compete with Square selling artbooks (failing WP:FUC #2).
When Renmiri removed these tags with edit summaries that boiled down to "nuh uh!" I reverted, asking Renmiri to wait for an administrator to consider these images. Usually, I would have speedied them myself, but since emotions were running high I felt a fourth party's input (remember, I stepped in between Remiri and Kariteh) might be helpful.
Renmiri started this thread, and removed the DFU tags again, cutting and pasting this into each image description page. I tried restoring the DFU page and moving this explanation to the talk page, but when I realized that Renmiri had done this on roughly a dozen pages, I just started reverting with rollback. I discussed the matter further there, ending the day with my comment beginning "You keep saying that it's allowed, but it's not." That discussion continues.
Basically, there is no vendetta, and I'm not trying to stop Renmiri from speaking out on anything. (I'm not even sure what the dissent I'm supposedly trying to silence is!) To my knowledge, I haven't ever had any previous contact with Remiri. The example of me using a "straw man" is an unrelated discussion where I state Wikipedia's stated purpose for not allowing non-commercial-use-only images; this fact is common knowledge. As for CSM, it does suck that he was driven off, but it couldn't have been my fault as had taken a few months off of Wikipedia due to harassment from an anon troll at the time.
I can provide specific diffs for any of the above on request. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:53, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
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As aMIB has noted above, the issue of pictures in the article in question has come up before last year in this discussion and it is interesting to note, the issue was resolved on the project page without a single image getting tagged. This is the way I am used to dealing with edit disputes: debate, even heated discussion, but no vandalism to one's work. This is not the way the dispute was handled on July 4th and that is why I am requesting mediation. I was told by several users that aMIB was the one pushing them away, but I do not want to get into rumor territory. We have here a concrete case of him and a friend trying very forcefully to get their way, without having to discuss it on it's merits. I am not concerned if the pictures stay or go. What concerns me is the method used in this instance: in my view aMIB has found a way to go above and beyond Wiki Lawyering to silent dissent and I won't stand for it.
- Let's start with Kariteh. He disagreed with the need for pictures of minor characters on an FF article, but instead of discussing the idea on it's merits, proceeded to tag 38 images that I have contributed to Wikipedia as having "odd rationale". How odd ? Let's see a rationale for an image Kariteh loaded and has recently reviewed, and the images I loaded in 2006. I took the liberty of highlighting the differences in italics
| Kariteh's image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Cc-viper.jpg | My image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Elma.jpg |
Fair use rationale
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Rationale for the fair use of this image in the article Spira (Final Fantasy X)
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| Kariteh's comment about his FUC: not sure what's the problem | Kariteh's comment about my image: The rationale claims it's used for illustrating locations and the game's world, even though it's actually used in a Characters article
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It is easy for me to see that removing the line that refers to the location was all that was needed, but Kariteh opted to tag the images instead of fixing them. When confronted on why didn't he just fixed the rationale, Kariteh himself admitted he had tagged the images because of their use on the article.
I am appalled that instead of chastising Kariteh on his over zeal, aMIB opted to join the abuse and proceeded to tag the images in the article or other images, as aMIB admits above singling my images for a "fair use review" of sorts because he disagreed with an edit decision. That to me consists a blatant attempt to get his way on an edit dispute and silence dissent and is very unbecoming to a Wikipedia administrator Renmiri 17:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
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It was rather difficult for me to identify "Kariteh's zeal" with comments from Renmiri like "will you stop playing political games" and "please cease immediately with the strawman and petty attacks" and "it gets hard to have a civil discussion when you resort to those kind of disruptive tactics." I stepped in to review what I saw as the disputed images, and the easiest way to do that seemed to be to go down Renmiri's image contribs, which turned up a large number of problematic images. I came into this dispute to step between the two involved parties (it just as easily could have been Kariteh's image contribs, since they were both warring over the same images); it just turned out that almost all of the disputed images had problems with nearly half of WP:FUC.
Calling detailed citation of why WP:FUC disallows some very problematic and excessive images "Wikilawyering" is a fundamental misunderstanding of what WP:FUC and why we have it. Wikipedia fair use criteria protect Wikimedia from lawsuits and help preserve this project as a free encyclopedia. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:27, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
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Oh gee, look a that Talk:Characters_of_Final_Fantasy_X_and_X-2#Fair_use_cleanup yet another one comes out of the woodworks and deletes all images from the article where the dispute started. Let's see if this is a coincidence ?
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This article has been cleaned of fair use images, as they are not appropriate in list style articles, and not ever in anything nearing the quantity of them used here. That includes the tactic used here, creating "inline" links to many of the images, and then false links to fool the cleanup bots. Please don't do that again. Seraphimblade Talk to me 01:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
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I guess I have to thank aMIB and his gang for clearly illustrating their online posse methods. I couldn't have done it justice just trying to describe it haven't him, Kariteh and now Seraphimblade obliged and provided such an eloquent display of them for all to see Renmiri 05:50, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
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- PS: Forgot to add, contrary to Seraphimblade's assertion that I did false links to fool the cleanup bots the links were done following the advice of GMAXWEL, author of the cleanup bots [1]. I never attempted to fooled anyone but by the same token I will not accept attempts to fool me with Wiki Lawyering or it's new incarnation, the cyber bullying aMIB and his gang are pioneering here Renmiri 06:00, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] What would you like to change about that?
I find it hard to believe that this is conduct appropriate for a Wikipedia Admin and decided to take this first step here to see if aMIB can come to his senses and stops using red herrings and straw man like his assertion that We're competing directly with Square. or encouraging petty games of "let's tag someone's contributions".
- After aMIB's blatant admission above that he singled out my contributions for a review because he disagreed with an editing decision I'm at loss as to how this mediation will help. It was my hope that the mediation would help him reflect on his role in this particular discussion and realize how blatantly wrong were his actions. I assumed that he just got carried away and was ready to put this behind us had he shown an iota of regret. Alas, aMIB is unrepentant and says himself that my assertions were true: He singled out my contributions because of an editing dispute. I consider his conduct very unbecoming to a Wiki Admin and will enter an arbitration request against him if he does not back down from his assertion that this is a proper way to handle editing disputes. In my year and a half of Wikipedia, Wikibooks, Wikia and other Wiki media projects I have never encountered this kind of hubris and persecution, not even when disagreeing with Jimbo Whales himself at Wikibooks. Unlike aMIB, Jim Wales was very open to dissent and did not single out even a simple n00b who had a piddly little game guide on Wikibooks. I am certain that if Jim Wales sees what is being done to editors by aMIB when a dispute arises he will flabbergasted. Renmiri 19:29, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
If Renmiri wants me to stop describing artbook scans as blatant violations of WP:FUC #2 or not to tag problematic non-free images when they come to my attention, then, no, I'm not going to do that. If Renmiri wants me to stop acting as part of some sort of posse conspiring against him, okay, I can do that easily because no such conspiracy exists. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:09, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Her. I'm a mom of 3 and now a bully on a playground when I see one.
I am very passionate about game articles, they were my first foray in Wikipedia: My then 6 year old wanted very much a cake with a drawing of Pukutak for her birthday. As a doting mom I looked everywhere for anything on Pukutak and only found one google match: Wikipedia's Characters of Final Fantasy X page. Alas, there was no picture of it in the page! Being a tech savvy mom I managed to find a book on ebay that had the picture, and the cake was made and enjoyed by my family and my daughter's little friends. After the ordeal I decided to make it easier for the next mom on a "cake mission" and proceeded to upload images of the book to Wikipedia. Not to compete directly with Square as aMIB hysterically asserts, but to help another kid and another mom have a fun birthday party.
My passion for game articles here at Wikipedia is second only to my passion for Wikipedia. The place anyone can edit. The community created body of knowledge. And I see what aMIB did to me on this July 4th editing dispute as a threat to it. His roughshod bullying tactics have been pushing a lot of people out. When I opened this request for mediation, which has no real impact on someone's Wikipedia "career" my aim was basically to call for a time out and get a calmer 3rd party to help cool things down.
All I wanted with it was to make sure aMIB and whoever else joined the "posse" on July 4th to reflect on what they were doing and the impact it has on an editing dispute. On the impact using such rough tactics have on teamwork and every editor's stress level while working on Wikipedia. It spoils it. It takes away the joy of trying to make articles better and makes it a place where everyone is afraid of speaking up. Which, as far as I understand, it is the antithesis of what Wikipedia is supposed to be.
And hence this is my problem is with aMIB now. He saw nothing wrong with Kariteh tagging 38 images, and aMIB is not a n00b. He is an administrator, he should know better. He knows very well that orphan bots will delete an image in 7 days. He has seen thousands of editing disputes. He could have chosen to not get involved. He could have chosen to support Kariteh in the project page and turn a blind eye to the fact that you went after my images. Instead, he joined the attack and tagged 10 more. He tagged several of the images in the disputed article as orphan images which is a lie, their presence on the Character article was being disputed, i.e. they weren't orphaned yet. Tagging them as orphan will make the images be deleted and aMIB knows it. He even tagged images that are NOT on the characters page. He chose my work specifically, regardless of if it was on the disputed page or not. There is simply no way I can assume good faith in his case. He did it on purpose, to get his way. In fairness to aMIB, he doesn't deny it. In this page page he flat out admits going after images loaded by me, because he disagreed with the 2006 decision. Which makes my choice of the mediation moot.
I see what he did to me as wrong and the antithesis of how editing disputes should be handled. Yet aMIB is unrepentant. I have no choice but to press further. Because, when it comes down to it, the reason I cared so much about "my pictures" and the Characters article is because I care about Wikipedia. The wikipedia that I experienced in 2006. The wikipedia that has a concept of letting anyone edit a page, not just "the anointed few". The Wikipedia that has a rule about not bitting the n00b and another about not using Wiki:lawyering to shut up editors. This is the place I want my images and my edits on.
If Wikipedia ceased to be this place and now the kind of thing aMIB and others did to me is considered proper behavior in editing disputes, then I want no part of it. He and his posse can go ahead and tag every single image and article I ever touched for AfD and they will be doing me a favor. If Wikipedia has turned into a place where people get their worked singled out because of a simple disagreement, then it is not the place I want my work on. I will be grateful that aMIB is saving me the hours needed to take out my own work from this new place he is building. It isn't the place I want my work at all.
As for now, I refuse to believe things changed that much in less than a year, and I will keep on fighting aMIB until he admits what he did is very wrong and that there are limits to what can be done to editors on an editing dispute. Singling out someone's work is out of bounds. Piling on an editor ? Ditto! There is a very visible line between passion and boldness and bullying and aMIB crossed it. Until he admits his error I won't stop. No matter how many images I loaded he deletes. Until either he admits his error or someone at a higher level than aMIB tells me Wikipedia is now accepting and approving what he did as wiki policy then I won't stop. Because as I said before, when it comes down to it, the reason I care so much about my 38 images is because I care about the place I loaded them. And I will lose 38, 68, or 3,800 of my edits fighting for that place. The Wikipedia I encountered in 2006, where people weren't afraid to disagree with editors, not even when they were admins. The place were all parties involved in the dispute cared more about articles and content than who edited what Renmiri 04:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
PS: I have already agreed (yesterday) to the removal of all "my" images from the article in question. furthermore, I will do nothing to prevent their deletion by bots even though I know many of those were tagged because of aMIBs vendetta. It doesn't matter. This mediation , soon to be arbitration, isn't about the images at all. It is about aMIBs view of what constitutes appropriate behavior on an editing dispute. Until he changes his mind and seees the error of his ways, or I learn that his behavior is condoned by Wikipedia I will not stop fighting him. Renmiri 04:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- The history of the images Renmiri describes exactly the problem with the images, with regard to WP:FUC #2. She uploaded the images so someone wouldn't have to purchase the artbook to see them. That's an admirable reason in the abstract, but it's exactly what I mean when I say that we're competing with the market purpose of images in artbooks. People buy an artbook to appreciate the development and concept art of a game they are interested in. If Wikipedia has those pictures, there's no need to buy the artbook.
- I am aware of the effect that enforcing Wikipedia's fair-use rules has on good-faith editors. It really sucks that I have to delete good-faith contributions to Wikipedia for no reason other than a fairly esoteric set of poorly-advertised rules. This is why I've gone out of my way to make sure as many of such images as possible, not because I want to piss people off, but because the best way to prevent this from happening is to clean up the mess left by poor enforcement of these rules so that people won't ever have to ask, "Why are you just picking on me?"
- I've done my best to explain to Renmiri the problem with these articles according to Wikipedia's fair-use criteria. I admit I've had a little difficulty identifying any responses, entangled as they are in accusations of bullying/political games/conspiracy/etc. and in philosophical arguments against WP:FUC's standards in general. I believe I've largely failed to explain the reasoning behind my actions, which I am unhappy about. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:55, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Discussion between parties and mediator
[edit] What type of compromise are you willing to come to?
In order to help you guys at all, it would be helpful to know what type of compromise each of you are willing to come to. While you think about that, give me the chance to fully read over the case and all of the edits involved, and then I'll give you my opinion. Cheers, P3net (Talk|Contribs) 17:38, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what to suggest. As I said, I myself stepped in to informally mediate and investigate when Renmiri turned his rancor on me, so I'm pretty much at a loss. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 18:01, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
- Err... I just typed a couple of passionately written paragraphs about that above, not realizing they would fit here better. I'll just go for the bottom line: I care about images and articles I worked on but I care a lot more for Wikipedia's ideals, namely that anyone can be an editor, that n00bs should be encouraged and that using Wiki-lawyering and other cheap shots to quell dissent are WRONG. I see the targeting of my work that aMIB did to me due to an editing dispute as 100 times worse than Wiki-lawyering. This mediation was an attempt to get him to rethink his ways and since he is unrepentant - so far - it has failed miserably. Yet I am going to be out of the country from July 9th thru July 21st. I am going to be packing tomorrow so I won't be here. This will give aMIB a good two weeks to reflect on what he is done. If during this time he repents and admits he crossed a line that shouldn't be crossed, I will agree to close the case and we will all live happily ever after. If not, then he will give me no other choice than open an arbitration request. In any case, I won't be having any reliable net connection until July 22nd so I apologize in advance for leaving any response unanswered. Renmiri 05:05, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Administrative notes
Well, the mediator has disappeared completely. What is the status of this case? Wizardman 21:23, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
- Renmiri doesn't edit any more, and I barely edit. It can safely be closed as moot. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- Very wel then, it's closed. Wizardman 19:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
