Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-03-11 Ohio State University

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Wikipedia Mediation Cabal

Article: Ohio State University (and other related articles) State: Closed Requested By: Rcade Other Parties: ChicJanowicz Mediated By: Eagle 101 Comments: asking to close

Contents 1 Mediation Case: 2007-03-11 Ohio State University 1.1 Request Information 1.2 Mediator response 1.3 Administrative notes 1.4 Compromise offers 1.5 Discussion 1.5.1 Restate 1.5.2 Article Text 1.5.3 Title and the, and WP:MOS 1.5.4 Talk page of WP:MOS (WT:MOS) 1.5.5 Has everything been made clear

[edit] Mediation Case: 2007-03-11 Ohio State University

[edit] Request Information

Request made by: Rcade 14:08, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Where is the issue taking place?

Numerous pages of people with ties to Ohio State University.

Who's involved?

User:ChicJanowicz and myself.

What's going on?

Chic edits actively on Ohio State University-related subjects (I think he's an alumnus). He's putting "the" before the name of the school on first reference because that's what the school calls itself, but that's against Wikipedia's naming convention for university names. When I edited a couple dozen references to follow the convention, he used "rvv" to revert them. It's not vandalism to follow our style rules.

What would you like to change about that?

I'd like the convention to be followed. If he wants to change it, the way to do so is not by editing style errors into Wikipedia.

Would you prefer we work discreetly? If so, how can we reach you?

No preference. I just want confirm the convention and avoid a revert war.

[edit] Mediator response

Hello, I will be glad to be your mediator. First off, is everyone ok with me as your mediator? Secondly would you guys prefer talk here, or talk on the article talk page? From what I understand, this dispute is about the Ohio State University article, and related pages. To me it seems to be resolving around whether or not the word 'the' should precede ohio state. Regardless of the few issues with edit summaries, and the like, would you both please state your case somewhere (here, or on another page, just let me know where ;)), and we can try to meet in the middle somewhere, or see if perhaps there are other things we can do? Lets try to keep an open mind, and focus on the facts. Cheers! —— Eagle101 ^{Need help?} 09:21, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Discussing it here is OK with me. Rcade 12:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

This case is larger than a dispute between Rogers Cadenhead/User:Rcade and User:ChicJanowicz. As User:Analogue Kid notes below, this is a topic with a long history on Wikipedia, and currently under discusion among dozens, if not hundreds of users. I do not know how jurisdiction is determined in such cases. ChicJanowicz 14:12, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, well as this is informal mediation, perhaps I will be able to point this in at least the right direction. What other articles are there discussion on? Perhaps a good idea would be to get some more 3rd party points of view on the talk page of the naming conventions guideline. Lets try to find a simple solution to this. Cheers! —— Eagle101 ^{Need help?} 19:48, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I've posted a message at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions#Names_of_schools as well, to try to get some 3rd party input as to if the policy is relevant here, as that seems to be one of the issues. I suggest that we try to explain why we feel the way we feel. Please limit it only to the facts of the situation, what one person did or did not do really should not be relevant, but it will be very nice to have a brief summary of what everyone thinks. Thanks. —— Eagle101 ^{Need help?} 21:09, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Administrative notes

If there are no objections in the next few days I will close this. --Ideogram 05:14, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Compromise offers

[edit] Discussion

Rcade is basing his case on this Naming Conventions page. However, he misunderstands the point being made on that page. That page states, "The definite article should not be used for universities, even if the official name of the university uses the definite article." What Rcade apparently misunderstands is that the page refers to the naming of the Wikipedia articles, not to how the schools are to be mentioned within each article. Every one of the schools listed on that very Naming Conventions page uses "the" within the body of each school's Wikipedia page. For example, the article titled University of Chicago refers to the University of Chicago within the article.

Rcade has created a great deal of damage, repeatedly defacing article after article of alumni of the Ohio State University by removing the "the" in their alma mater's name. If he is willing to repair the damage, I will be willing to consider the matter closed. ChicJanowicz 01:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I have since discovered that Rcade is an admitted Wikipedia prankster and troublemaker. He has written his own Wikipedia biography (Rogers Cadenhead) as a self-described "experiment" in testing Wikipedia policy. I do not think he actually believes in the merits of this Mediation case, and that it also is an exercise in pot-stirring. As evidence, I point to the fact that in his self-written Wikipedia biography he uses the definite article "the" in naming his own alma mater, the University of North Texas. ChicJanowicz 02:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

When the first word of a school's name is "university," it's grammatically incorrect to omit the leading article "the" in sentence references. Ohio State University does not begin with "university," so it's a different situation. Rcade 02:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

• It is not a different situation. The name of each school is what it is. It would not be grammatically incorrect to state "Wikipedia user Rogers Cadenhead graduated from University of North Texas" if that were the name of the school. ChicJanowicz 03:11, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia doesn't defer to a school's official designated name where articles are concerned. Rcade 03:15, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

• You are repeatedly making that claim without reason. The Naming Conventions page you built this case on is not relevant to the topic of how schools should be addressed within articles. If your reading of Wikipedia policy were correct, it would be a policy of deliberately misaddressing schools. Why would Wikipedia have a policy of deliberate error? ChicJanowicz 13:57, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

The personal abuse I'm taking over this is out of line. First, ChicJanowicz called my edits vandalism and used "rvv" as the reason to undo them, knowing it wasn't vandalism. Next, he called the edits damage and reverted them a second time *after* this mediation case was opened. Finally, he's launched a personal attack that has nothing to do with the editorial dispute. If he can't edit pages related to Ohio State without abusing editors who disagree with him, perhaps it's not the best subject for him to be working on. Rcade 02:37, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

• Sir, it is you who has been repeatedly abusive throughout this case. You began it by disputing my professionalism and my integrity. ChicJanowicz 03:00, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Where did I do that? The only thing you could possibly question is my use of the term "boosterism" in the edit notes to describe what you're doing by adding "The" all over the place to Ohio State references. As you know as an Ohio State fan, the school's players make a big deal out of saying "the" before the name in a form of boosterism. That's what I think you're doing here, since you are an editor whose primary edits here are on Ohio State athletic topics, but if mediators decide it's appropriate I will leave it alone. Rcade 03:13, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Rcade, have you read the naming conventions discussion on Talk:Ohio State University that I started? It is under the headings "Moved Page" and "Naming Convention". We had a long and somewhat contentious debate, but I think it did a good job of laying out the facts as best we know it. As far as this debate goes, I can 100% gurantee you ChicJanowicz is not the only one who writes pages as [[Ohio State University|The Ohio State University]]. I've seen it done by numerous other users including myself. --Analogue Kid 13:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
      • For what it is worth, I do not edit mentions of the University with "[[Ohio State University|The Ohio State University]]," nor do I capitalize the "the." I write the name of the school as "the Ohio State University," which is consistent both with the historical facts and with Wikipedia policy. ChicJanowicz 14:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Thanks for the pointer, but Ohio State's talk page is a poor place to determine consensus on this issue. A bunch of people affiliated with the school regard the "the" as a point of school pride. Rcade 16:52, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Rcade, you are putting the cart before the horse with discussion of athletes emphasizing the word "the" on national broadcasts. The name of the school is what it is, with a 130 year pedigree. And when the name is said incorrectly, it is grating on the ears of those who know the correct facts. Athletes recently emphasizing the word "the" is a reflection of that history, not its source. It is irrelevant to our dispute. ChicJanowicz 14:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Personally, I find the unnecessary insertion of the word "the" before Ohio State University grating. But this isn't about preferences; it's about following Wikipedia style. Rcade 16:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
        • What I find grating is the inaccuracy. Why should you find the accurate rendering of the name grating? Is that why you changed those many references in the first place? ChicJanowicz 19:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
          • I changed it because I thought (and still think) you were making an edit against Wikipedia's style conventions for university names. It wasn't personal. Rcade 01:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Right now it should be Ohio State University per the Wikipedia:Naming conventions. However I personally believe it should be The Ohio State University and the proposed naming convention would allow this. This policy needs to be adopted first to resolve this conflict. Until this point, the article should remain Ohio State University. --phenz^Talk 16:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

• Phenz, the Naming Conventions page refers to the naming of Wikipedia articles. Those conventions explain why the "Ohio State University" article should not be redirected to a new "The Ohio State University" page. Some users have proposed such a redirect, but the issue under discussion on this page is not related to that proposal. The issue under discussion is whether the Ohio State University should be referred to by the name it has held since the Ohio legislature named it in 1878. The Naming Conventions page (as mentioned above) does not speak to that issue, and in fact the schools listed on the Naming Conventions page are all given the "the" within the relevant articles. ChicJanowicz 19:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

• Sorry that was not the link I intended to use. Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(definite_and_indefinite_articles_at_beginning_of_name) was what I was going for. I was just addressing the issue of the page being moved and not the use of “the” within the article. You are right that this guideline is irrelevant to your issue, only for the naming of the article. The official name "The Ohio State University" should be used in the article regardless of the article name. --phenz^Talk 20:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to point out to all that if for some reason we decided that the page title should include the definite article, it would be capitalized due to technical restrictions.--Analogue Kid 20:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'd like to note that as far as the article name to be a guideline here. Why don't we all have a look at that. That may solve the issue of the article's title. As far as usage in the article text, well we have yet to figure that out ;). Of course that guideline may be out of date with current thinking, and if so, perhaps someone should post a note to the talk page of the guideline talking about perhaps changing it. Regards. —— Eagle101 ^{Need help?} 21:19, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Restate

Let us restate why we feel one way or the other, and we can figure it out from there. Please don't worry about what one person did or the other person did, lets focus on the facts. I've tried to dig through and point out some of the relevant guidelines to help you guys out. As I stated above, a useful guideline to this issue appears to be here,. Regards, and I hope to see this figured out in the next couple days. —— Eagle101 ^{Need help?} 01:58, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

• The naming conventions page is intended for the titling of articles, not for how those topics are to be referenced within articles. For example, at the bottom of the naming conventions page it notes that the "The" was not used to title articles Cultural Revolution, Eiffel Tower, United States, and White House, but when those topics are referenced within articles they are of course mentioned as the Cultural Revolution, the Eiffel Tower, the United States, and the White House. I have no objection to titling university names without a leading "The," even when the university itself uses it, but to force a university to be referenced inaccurately within articles would undermine the goal of accuracy in Wikipedia. Usage of a leading "the" -- in reference to universities within articles -- is consistently found even when the article title does not use it: the University of Arizona, the State University of New York, the Ohio State University. To ask users to remove those hundreds of uses of "the" would be the equivalent of asking for a mass conspiracy of falsehood. It would be counter-intuitive, counter-productive, and ultimately as impossible as putting toothpaste back into a tube. ChicJanowicz 03:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
• There's nothing inaccurate about omitting the word "the" before proper nouns when it's the more common usage. Many references to Ohio State University omit the preceding "the" for this reason -- a Google search of the phrase "attended Ohio State University" has 23,500 results; a search of "attended the Ohio State University" has 13,200. Other searches show similar results -- "teaches at Ohio State University" has 691 results; "teaches at the Ohio State University" has 76. For other schools it's even more pronounced: "attended Florida State University" produces 17,500 results and "attended the Florida State University" 134. If the omission of a preceding "The" makes sense for page titles about schools, it makes sense for articles to follow the same convention. Rcade 03:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
  • 1. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Encyclopedias are devoted to eradicating ignorance. Finding ignorance on the Internet is not a reason to embrace or give in to it.
  • 2. Rogers Cadenhead writes "If the omission of a preceding 'The' makes sense for page titles about schools, it makes sense for articles to follow the same convention." Would he apply the same rule to discussions of nations United States and Netherlands?
  • 3. Florida State University is irrelevant to this topic because that school does not have a "the" in its official name. A better comparison would be comparing usage of "State University of New York" with "the State University of New York." ChicJanowicz 03:49, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
• Additionally, it's inappropriate for ChicJanowicz to continue making these edits when he knows it is the subject of an unresolved dispute in mediation. Rcade 03:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Eagle101 said to get away from "who did what when," but since you raised the topic let me defend myself. The R. L. Stine article was one of the ones you mass edited. I merely returned it to its status-quo-ante state. ChicJanowicz 03:57, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
    • The point of this mediation is to avoid attempting to resolve the dispute through edits. You're not making a good-faith attempt to honor the mediation process. Rcade 04:45, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article Text

Ok, getting back to the facts, I think we can establish that the articles should not start with the word the in the title. I'm drawing this from this guideline, and from other 3rd parties that have taken the time to step in (Phenz). All there seems to be left is should we or should we not have the word the in the article text precede the school's name. If anyone feels that the article titles should have the word the in them, then that is something that needs to be taken to the talk page of the relevant guideline, as if that is the case, from what I see, there would have to be a mass re-naming of pages. So unless I have misunderstood something the page titles should not be part of our issue, but if they are, I'm willing to help guide you guys to the proper place to talk about having current guidelines changed. Thats not a problem ;).

Now as far as article text goes, I don't see a relevant guideline anywhere for that, so in that respect we are breaking new ground. I would again request that you both present your views as far as article text, Please do stay away from pointing out personal errors, as they really do make life harder for all of us, if we focus on the facts we will be able to more easily see the correct course of action, at the very least it will be easier for us to get outsiders to this issue to comment. Try to stay to the facts, thats all I ask. I think that our relevant policy here will be WP:V, WP:A, and WP:OR. Regards, and hope that this clears up shortly ;). —— Eagle101 ^{Need help?} 05:05, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

• The central fact of the case is straightforward. In 1878, trustees of the Ohio Agricultural and Mechanical College changed the school's name to the Ohio State University. Immediately after, the Ohio Legislature approved that change. Here is a publication of the state of Ohio discussing the educational reasons for and political context surrounding the change to the new name. And here (see paragraph beginning "As a general rule...) is a letter from the Ohio Attorney General in 1994 that says the name change in 1878 was approved by the legislature by Ohio Law R.C. 3335.01, which reads "The educational institution originally designated as the Ohio agricultural and mechanical college shall be known as The Ohio State University." ChicJanowicz 12:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Ok, so according to you, is there or is there not a problem with the article title? I'm just trying to figure out where we stand. (I will wait on a reply here and from User:Rcade, before figuring out the next step) —— Eagle101 ^{Need help?} 12:37, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
    • I personally have no concern one way or the other with the article titles. If Wikipedia were a paper encyclopedia, then the University of Nebraska would be found under "U", the State University of New York would be found under "S", and the Ohio State University would be found under "O"; so following that model in an online encyclopedia does not seem unreasonable. What I do have a concern about is how the schools are referred to within articles. I believe that if t here is a trade-off in the text of Wikipedia articles between simplicity and accuracy, Wikipedia should stand by accuracy. Having a policy of simplifying the names of the schools in article texts by dropping the leading "the" (when it is part of the legal name of the school) would be a policy of authorized inaccuracy. ChicJanowicz 13:09, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
    • My take: If the guiding principle here is the school's official name, it should be The Ohio State University in article references. Chic undermines his own argument by calling it "the Ohio State University," because in that usage the "the" is not significant and should not be taken as part of the official title. Wikipedia editors should not have to check a school's page to see whether it incorporates the word "the" when referring to the school. It's simpler and makes more sense to adopt common practice -- use "the" when it matters to compose the sentence, omit "the" when it doesn't. Rcade 13:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Wikipedia editors are not working on assignment. They are users knowledgeable on a topic who want to contribute their time to the subject. Precision is not an overwhelming demand. Let's look at a parallel issue in another field. The band Talking Heads does not use a "the" in its name, so precision requires that Wikipedia editors discussing the band should not as well. Aesthetic values of sentence structure are not relevant. The band the Grateful Dead, in contrast, does use a "the" in its name, so Wikipedia editors should as well (with a lowercase "t"). The fact that the band's article begins with the letter "G" does not change that fact. ChicJanowicz 14:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title and the, and WP:MOS

Ok, so Rcade, according to you it should be the in the article's title? If so, then I'm going to suggest that further talk (on article titles) take place at the relevant guideline's talk page, as right now it is standard practice to not have the word the in the front of university names on article titles. So if this is an issue, (please let me know if anyone wants to have the titles start with the) I am willing to start the conversation on the talk page for you guys, and see what 3rd party input we can get on that.

• edit -- I have found a nice conversation already taking place about the titles. See here, I am going to suggest that we all read that section, and if you guys feel like you have something to add to the conversation that has not been said already, then go for it! I will just watch. —— Eagle101 ^{Need help?} 18:27, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

As far as the article's text, I have to do some reading of the manual of style. I am going to suggest that both of you also read (re-read?) the manual of style with me, that way we are all on the same page as far as the manual of style goes. If we are lucky there will already be some instructions we can consider taking advantage of. Cheers! —— Eagle101 ^{Need help?} 18:05, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

• No -- I think the "the" in front of Ohio State University is unnecessary and should be omitted. Rcade 20:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Would that be in all cases? Even in article text? (I'm just clarifying). Right now as it stands the guidelines for the title of a page, are don't put the word the in front, as you see there is discussion going on about that now. As far as the article text, I have yet to look through the manual of style for any help for you guys, so I would appreciate a few hours or so to get a proper read of the WP:MOS. We also need to wait for everyone to comment ;). Thanks! —— Eagle101 ^{Need help?} 21:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
• The manual of style supports using a "the" when it is used by a university -- "Correct: The university offers… or The University of Ottawa offers… " ChicJanowicz 12:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Sheesh -- it doesn't do that at all. Those examples are the beginnings of sentences, which would of course be capitalized, and they're meant solely to show the capitalization or non-capitalization of the word "university." Rcade 21:10, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
    • As I have said previously, I am not seeking to use a capitalized T in the word "the." I am merely seeking to use the word "the" at all when it is used by the university. The quote I offered from the "Institutions" section of the manual of style clearly demonstrates that it is appropriate to use a "the", as used in "the University of Ottawa." ChicJanowicz 21:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Talk page of WP:MOS (WT:MOS)

See Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Word the before university names. Feel free to comment, but try to keep it to the facts, (we don't want to be scaring away anyone ;) ) the whole idea of my post is to try to get some 3rd party input, which would be useful right about now, as I'm no expert in the use of the before university names ;). I would appreciate any new talk happening below this header, so we can keep moving on towards resolving this. —— Eagle101 ^{Need help?} 21:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

• Wikipedia's MOS doesn't answer the "the" question, and I think Chic and I can both agree there should be an answer. Instead of making people wade through our personal disagreement to get to the subject that matters -- Wikipedia style regarding "the" at the front of university names -- Chic and I should each write one last comment on what the style rule should be and make no rebuttals to each other. After we've done that, Eagle 101 can create a new page with just those proposals and we'll see what other people think the style rule should be. Rcade 22:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I would suggest that we have a look at the third party conversation that has been generated at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Word the before university names. It looks like we have a couple extra sets of eyes. Please as always, try to keep everything to the facts. Thanks. —— Eagle101 ^{Need help?} 17:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
    • I posted my opinion there, which is about all I can do on the matter. Thanks for your help. Rcade 00:09, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Has everything been made clear

By the 3rd party talk that I've seen on that talk page, it looks like we might have some idea on how to proceed. If the talk there is not enough, I'm willing to help you guys bring in more people to the discussion, but if we have what we need please say so. Does anyone have problems with the advice given on the talk page? If so, please let me know ;) Cheers! —— Eagle101 ^{Need help?} 05:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)