Talk:Medical school in the United States

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WikiProject Medicine This article is within the scope of WikiProject Medicine. Please visit the project page for details or ask questions at the doctor's mess.
Start This page has been rated as Start-Class on the quality assessment scale
Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance assessment scale


Contents

[edit] M.D. / D.O.

Medical education in the U.S. means earning one of two, equivalent medical degrees. This is crucial point. Must be explained.OsteopathicFreak 17:21, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

The degrees are not equivalent. (D.O.s receive some training that M.D.s do not receive.) The rights conferred upon the recipient of either degree, though not the same, are equal for all intents and purposes. (D.O.s may not use the post-numerary "M.D.", nor may M.D.s use the post-numerary "D.O.", but both get licensed in the same way.) People who possess one of the two may equally practice medicine in the United States. Antelan talk 05:31, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
The training is not equivalent, but the final degrees are, legally. In some states, D.O.s can use the same post-numerary, i.e. they can legally put M.D. after their name, and even those that live in states that don't specifically allow it, common practice is to use M.D. anyway, a fact which no one seems to notice. There's not exactly that enforces D.O.s not to print M.D. on their business cards and name tag, they do it all the time. I'm not saying that the majority of D.O.s do this, BTW. I'm just saying there are quite a few that do.
I can cite many standard reference texts that the two degrees are "virtually indistinguishable. Note that the degrees are not equal, but they are equivalent. High school diploma is not the same thing as a GED, they involve a very different process, but the two are equivalent.OsteopathicFreak T ? 05:50, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
You say, "There's not exactly (a law) that enforces D.O.s not to print M.D. on their business cards and name tag, they do it all the time." While that may be allowed in some states (which?), it is also expressly illegal in many states, such as Maryland. Other states, like Texas, have statutes governing precisely which titles an individual may use - and D.O.s and M.D.s may not use each other's titles. In Oregon, osteopathic physicians may not even use the title "physician" without a qualifier. I'm not pushing for content like this to get into articles; given the evidence, though, I can't see the rationale for calling the degrees equivalent. They confer equal rights to practice medicine, but are not equivalent. The first clause of the previous sentence provides an alternative, more-accurate wording that sounds just as good. Antelan talk 11:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
A few points:
  • I think the specific rules in different states regarding the post-nominal title is exactly the kind of content that would be valuable in Comparison of osteopathic and allopathic medicine or History of the relationship of osteopathic and allopathic medicine. You also mentioned some court case in New York on this topic, that would be interesting in the History article as well.
  • I should have said: There's not exactly an enforcement agency that enforces D.O.s not to print M.D. on their business cards and name tag, they do it all the time. I'm just speaking anecdotally, not making a verifiable statement. For example, at the hospital I work at, the name badges are already printed with "MD" "RN" etc. And they have a machine that just fills in the docs name. So all the DOs name badges say MD. My point is only that it may be illegal, but that its regularly done.
  • As far as the whole equivalent thing. I don't think there's a point in us arguing this, because I think we've both made our opinions clear. I have listed some sources that use the phrase "identical" and "virtually indistinguishable" and other similar words to compare the degrees. Except for the hypothetical scenario of an MD getting sued for practicing OMM, which seems reaching to me, I think the word equivalent is reasonably appropriate. Touro OsteopathicFreak T 02:40, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
There's the OMM hypothetical and also the DO/MD title caselaw. The wording that you put into the article after my edits seems perfectly reasonable. Antelan talk 04:23, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Great. Touro OsteopathicFreak T 16:34, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Number of osteopathic medical schools

in the U.S. is now 25, with 3 branch campuses, making 28 locations total:

http://www.aacom.org/colleges/

Also the original link is inaccessible:

https://www.do-online.org/index.cfm?PageID=edu_main&au=D&SubPageID=sir_college


Ssc1997 04:56, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Osteopathic DO

Hopping is reverting my edits to the 'see also' portion of this article. My version describes what medical students are doing (working toward a degree, either M.D. or D.O.). Hopping's is redundant, especially for a "see also". I would prefer that my version be restored. Other thoughts? http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Medical_school_in_the_United_States&diff=168877809&oldid=168877276 Antelan talk 04:00, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Usually I would agree with you, but in this case I think it is important that people reading the article be familiar with these terms. That said, I don't like how Hopping has a tendency to overuse the term "allopathic" in other articles. It should only be used when a direct comparison with osteopathic medicine is being made. Nathanaver 16:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I just made some changes and would like to address why that should not be reverted. I'm trying not to get involved in the allopathic vs. osteopathic debate. My changes are based on Wikipedia standards and guidelines.

  1. {{dablink}} was not properly used. Its proper usage is to add disambiguation links to other unrelated articles with the same name. In this article, {{dablink}} was not being used for disambiguation.
  2. {{dablink}} was being used to convey facts that should be in the body of the article. If a discussion of allopathic/osteopathic medicine belongs here, it should be mentioned somewhere in the lead or body of the article - not in a redirection template.
  3. The link to alternative medicine was not placed in a template, so I added {{otheruses4}} to properly redirect readers without needing to define any words. I intentionally did not link to the M.D. and D.O. articles here. Disambiguations and redirections should not have an excess of links - they should only link to the intended targets of the reason the template was added.
  4. I removed the 5 references to allopathic being an appropriate word to use. There should never need to be references for redirection links. Facts always need to be referenced, but I don't think usage of a word should have to be referenced. This is why there are manuals of style.

I don't want to engage in the debate here, but maybe User:Hopping and User:Antelan would attempt to co-create a manual of style for proper usages of osteopathic and allopathic. It could be added to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (medicine-related articles) when completed. I'd probably help out too, but I do not want to debate the matter. --Scott Alter 17:11, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you all for your responses and contributions. If you are interested in participating in a discussion that Hopping and I are having about when it is necessary to use allopathic and osteopathic vs M.D. and D.O., please feel free to join [1] on my talk page; we'll welcome all comers. Antelan talk 21:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] General Response

I wanted to respond to Nathanaver concern and state a general position on this issue, so others can understand the principles behind my edits. These are all my personal opinions. These are not necessarily ideas that should be included in a Wikipedia article. I present them since I feel some authors question my motives, or adduce my edits as evidence for an agenda or a significant COI. I am hoping that by disclosing these ideas, I will promote a more productive process for everyone, and improve the quality of these articles in general.

  1. The fact that US medical education has two parallel yet distinct "universes" (MD & DO) is an oddity.
  2. The actual, practical differences between allopathic and osteopathic are very minor, as evidences by large studies such as this one. So minor, in my opinion, as to almost be trivial. I say almost trivial, since there are some lingering consequences of this split. I find those remaining differences to be highly encyclopedic.
  3. Understanding these differences, especially for anyone outside of US medicine, is difficult. The relevant issues are often subtle or complex, as well as mutable in many cases. Further obfuscating the issue are commonly held beliefs of popular culture, such as the letters "MD" being synonymous with physician, leading to the confusing labeling of DOs as MDs (as demonstrated here). This situation exists because of a general lack of familiarity with the term "osteopathic" and an almost total ignorance of the term "allopathic." Also, though there are differences in education and training, the endpoint of these two pathways is virtually identical. For most people, i.e. non-physicians, this endpoint is all they have knowledge of.
  4. I have no interest in promoting osteopathic medicine as some superior kind of medicine. My personal opinion is that this idea that osteopathic physicians "treat the whole patient" is utter nonsense, though I am aware that others would disagree with me. I have made a point of including some rather harsh criticism (as here) as well as including authors and studies that suggest that the significance of the uniqueness of osteopathic medicine is exaggerated (as here) and here).
  5. There are a limited number of situations in which the word allopathic is needed. In these limited situations it is very necessary. There is a reason why when the National Residency Matching Program releases its yearly report on Match results for all participants in the match, they use the word "allopathic" in their first chart (see Chart 1.) There is a reason why when the AAMC director gives testimony to congress about the status of medical education in the United States in 2007, he uses the word allopathic 21 times. There is a reason why the president of the AAMC uses the term allopathic in a letter describing the status of medical education in the U.S.. There is a reason why the US dept of labor uses the term allopathic on its lead page describing the occupations physician and surgeon. Likewise there is a reason why countless on authors and publications use the allopathic to describe one part of the US medical education system, as shown here, here, and here.
  6. User Antelan has asked me very pointedly what that reason is, why authors and organizations use the term allopathic in these situations, versus some other descriptive term. That is a perfectly legitimate question, which I think is extraordinarily difficult to answer concisely and satisfactorily. Any reason I give would be speculation on my part, as I don't know why this term is used over some other term. I would posit that authors and speakers on the subject of medical education feel that this term is the most descriptive, best possible word to use in distinguishing the allopathic medical universe from the parallel yet distinct osteopathic one right beside it.
  7. For the sake of clarity, I will identify where, in my opinion. In general, one needs the term when describing an entity which is duplicated in both the allopathic and osteopathic world.

I may be leaving something out, but I think these are the most important ones. I hope that at the very least, this clarifies where I am coming from, and encourages a spirit of cooperation in these articles. I would really prefer a positive climate for everyone. User:Hopping T 20:24, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Naturopathic medical school

Hi everybody, I'm a student at the National College of Natural Medicine in Portland, Oregon. It's one of 4 accredited naturopathic medical schools in the United States, and graduates can sit for licensing exams which allows them to practice as a physician in various US jurisdictions. I think the naturopathic medical schools should be mentioned in this entry--right now viewers are just directed to the alternative medicine entry, which is defined on the page as "practices are based on unscientific belief systems or philosophies." Just to be clear, naturopathic medical schools require the same general set of undergraduate prerequisites that allopathic and osteopathic medical schools do, and naturopathy students take the same general set of preclinical didactic courses. There are big differences, for example ND students have 4 years of didactic education, some of which is concurrent with their clinical education, and they are not required to complete a residency before practicing as physicians, but these are differences that should be expounded somewhere; if not on this page, then on a "Naturopathic medical school" page that this page links to. I'd love to hear anyone's comments before I make any changes. Thanks! Lamaybe (talk) 21:41, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Allopathic

This term is poorly understood, and has several meanings, including derogatory ones. I have replaced the term with MD or other, well understood and unambiguous, words where appropriate. I had no expectation that this would be controversial, and I'm sure they are good changes that the community will approve of. --221.202.40.78 (talk) 20:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)