Talk:Media coverage of the Arab-Israeli conflict

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[edit] Incidents of controversial media reporting

This is a joke, right?! A cruel ironic joke? How come an article on biased media coverage lists controversial media incidents exclusively based on examples in favour of Palestinians? Numerous studies show that both in quality and quantity the anglo-american press is predominantly biased in favour of israel (the closer to New York, more bias). Some of these studies are even mentioned in this article as reference, why aren't examples from these studies extracted to the list of incidents? This is very disheartening. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.183.8.241 (talk) 20:21, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Are you trying to insinuate something by blaming New York, and refusing to capitalize "Israel"? AnonMoos (talk) 00:35, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
S/he didn't capitalise "Anglo" or "American" either, so I don't think you can read too much into that. Bad spelling isn't a conspiracy. :-) -- ChrisO (talk) 13:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
User 71.183.8.241, or other concerned editors -- please add sourced examples that you believe will improve the balance in the article. RomaC (talk) 05:29, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Please add them to the far superior Media coverage of the Arab-Israeli conflict/rewrite. <eleland/talkedits> 05:34, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
When is the rewrite going to replace this insult to Wikipedia? RomaC (talk) 14:34, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, that depends on if it must absolutely be completed before it replaces the current version and also on how much help I get. Sorry, although I've been trying to get around to finishing the rewrite, my coursework has been keeping me fairly busy. And also, the weather has gotten very, very nice, so it would be a shame to spend all my free time in-doors editing Wikipedia. In all seriousness, though, I think we can complete the rewrite fairly quickly if a number of us just add a small part each day or every other day. ← Michael Safyan (talk) 21:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


How about put the rewrite up now as it is and put the unfinished bits here in the Talk page? RomaC (talk) 04:06, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

We can put the rewrite up now, but I see no reason why we should break it up and put any unfinished pieces here. IMHO, the {{expand}} tags are sufficient for showing that a section is under construction. Does anyone object to replacing the current version with the rewrite? ← Michael Safyan (talk) 21:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Since there haven't been any objections, I have replaced the current page with the rewrite as-is. ← Michael Safyan (talk) 20:49, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
How come the re-write includes the Grossman picture? The only relation to any serious discussion of the topic concerns a highly unusual double retraction of a story that wrongfully maligned Israel. Anyone would think Israel was wrongly getting an easy ride.
How come the Gaza blast incident includes a quote from CAMERA, themselves one of the very most worrying parties in the whole business of media distortion? Anyone would think Israel was wrongly getting an easy ride.
How come the Independent's story on "Mystery of Israel's Secret Uranium Bomb" is treated as if it was a falsification, when there is no evidence for such? It's no more than an unverified allegation at this point. Worse, although the headline is eye-catching and (perhaps) wrongfully accusatory, the article itself is not, only questioning based on forensic testing at apparently reputable labs. (See my reasoning for saying this). Anyone would think Israel was wrongly getting an easy ride.
And how come Robert Fisk (author of the article) is selected as, presumably, an un-balanced writer, when the article itself is carefully and correctly worded? There may well be a fault, but it lies in the head-line.
Just from this one section, I think it's clear there remain really serious problems, with quite unsubstantiated claims made to defend the position that Israel is unfairly maligned. Whereas, in each of these three cases, the actual material might even suggest the opposite.
Answer to my question? "This was never a re-write in the first place, It's still laced with the exact same, really serious problems of the original article". PRtalk 11:16, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
In answer to your question...
  1. The Tuvia Grossman article is a "frequently cited incident" of controversial reporting by Israelis and Israel advocates who claim that the Western media favor Palestinians. It is so significant, in fact, that according to Honest Reporting's promotional videos, the Honest Reporting media watchdog group formed as a result of this particular incident.
  2. The quote from CAMERA is preceded by a clear indication that it is being quoted. The purpose is not to support or refute their claim, but merely to explain what claim they make.
  3. The Independent's story on "Mystery of Israel's Secret Uranium Bombs" was a falsification; their allegations that Israel had employed Uranium-based weaponry during the Second Lebanon War were refuted by the United Nations Environment Programme.
I think you are incorrect in stating that the rewrite is no different than the original. Whereas the original validated/refuted claims of bias, this new version explains what claims are made by each side, without endorsing or refuting such claims. That said, I concede that the "Frequently cited incidents" section, at this moment, contains incidents which are cited primarily by Israelis and their advocates. If you come across incidents which are frequently cited by Palestinians and their advocates, I will gladly include them in the article; at this time, though, I have been unable to find an incident meeting the following criteria:
  1. The reported information was refuted by one or more prominent governmental or non-governmental organizations, or
  2. The reported information was admitted to be false by the publisher, or
  3. The reported information was called into question by a high contracting party or by notable persons (e.g. a high-ranking government official of Israel or the Palestinian Authority)
AND
  1. At least one pro-Israel/pro-Palestinian media watchdog group has referred to the incident on more than one occassion, or
  2. Several pro-Israel/pro-Palestinian media watchdog groups have referred to the incident.
If you are able to locate an incident of pro-Israel/anti-Palestinian or alleged pro-Israel/anti-Palestinian reporting which meets that criteria, please include it in the list. Thank you. ← Michael Safyan (talk) 19:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I worry that you've made up these criteria, and that they're pandering to the blogosphere, of which "Honest Reporting" is definitely a part. CAMERA is supposed to be excluded as non-RS by RfC (long before it was caught trying to pack Wikipedia).
However, there may be advantages to your criteria (if the community accept that they are or should be policy). They'd mean that, for instance, the Jenin Massacre and the Gaza Beach massacre will be referenced, and both are (whatever you think of the "truth" of them) 100s of times better reported than Grossman.
Oh, and I need a reference that says the "Uranium Bomb" story was a falsification and not simply a story for which no evidence was found at a location that I estimate to be 20km away. The falsifications of Israel over its use of white phosphorus and other breaches of International agreement (central to the Independent story) must, again, be 100s of times more significant to this topic than is Fisk misquoted by the headline a sub-editor applied to one story. PRtalk 07:31, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I worry that you've made up these criteria
Of course I made up the criteria, but not just now. Whenever there is a list, criteria must be established for including items in the list. Since I was the only one editing the article, for a while, I simply kept the criteria in my head. We can, of course, negotiate the criteria, so long as the criteria remain logical and we apply them consistently. That said, I think the criteria which I established are rather sensible, and so I am not rushing to change them unless a number of editors find them to be illogical or problematic... in which case, we can debate the issue.
and that they're pandering to the blogosphere
Accusations of biased reporting in the blogosphere which are notable (reported in the news, resulted in retractions, referenced* by notable persons, referenced* by notable governmental or non-governmental organizations, or ....) certainly merit mention. *NOTE: when I say "referenced", I do not mean "cited", but rather "referred to".
of which "Honest Reporting" is definitely a part
While Honest Reporting's actions and comments are felt within the blogosphere, HonestReporting has its own, organizationally run, website. Honest Reporting, as one of the two major pro-Israel media watchdogs (the other being CAMERA), merits mention in an article about the positions of pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian media watchdogs. Even if it were a blog, though, HonestReporting is quoted in order to explain its position, only; not to substantiate facts. Furthermore, all quotes are given explicitly (i.e. with "According to..."). Since the quotes are used to explain the organization's position and not to validate anything else, the quotes are consistent with Wikipedia's standards for quoting blogs.
the Jenin Massacre ... will be referenced
Good point. I had almost forgotten about that... Although I'm frankly surprised that you would mention it, since it is cited primarily by Israelis and Israel advocates, since early media reports largely repeated the claim that hundreds of Palestinians were massacred, a claim refuted by HRW, the UN, and Amnesty International.
I need a reference that says the "Uranium Bomb" story was a falsification
The reference is already in the article. See the publication by the UN News Centre, stating that no Uranium-based weaponry were used.
The falsifications of Israel over its use of white phosphorus
I'm afraid I've lost you. If I tell you five facts and one lie, do the five facts make the lie no longer a lie? The claim that Israel used Uranium-based weaponry was found to be false. End of story. Whether anything else Fisk said in his article was true is irrelevant, and really has no bearing on the fact that the article is frequently cited by Israelis and Israel advocates as an example of alleged bias.
I hope I have answered you to your satisfaction. Good evening. ← Michael Safyan (talk) 08:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I couldn't find anything on how it(media reporting) has evolved over time

Some snippets from Time Magazine to use as food for thought:

At London, in an address before a session of the World Zionist Organization, Sir Herbert Samuel, High Commissioner of Palestine, waxed enthusiastic over the upbuilding of the Jewish National Home and the general progress of Palestine. Said he:

"The industrial exposition in Tel-Aviv revealed the development of Palestinian industry, and was a convincing indication that Palestine may become the industrial centre of the Middle East within our generation."

Profoundly disapproving of the Zionist policy of discrimination against Arab labor, he concluded that Jewish nationalism encouraged Arab nationalism, while the depressing of Arab wages made conflict inevitable. Jews who had been persecuted in Germany now persecuted Arabs and preached a doctrine of racial purity as relentless as the one under which they had suffered. A little dizzy from following this vicious circle all the way around, Gessner came reluctantly to a doubtful conclusion: "If we can't get along with the Arabs, we have failed."

They talked confidently—indeed, stridently—of a state of ten million, not necessarily confined to the present boundaries of Israel. It was a bad joke, and also a sober observation, that the idea of Drang nach Osten lived in the new nation of Hitler's victims. As they looked around them at a disorganized and unproductive Arab world, Israelis showed some of the reactions of the prewar Germans looking around a disorganized and unproductive Europe. The new blood of nationalism ran fast and hot in Israel; sometimes it seemed to be gushing out on the ground. Pleading for more understanding and tolerance of Israel, one sympathetic observer warned: "This could become an ugly little Spartan state."

--Stor stark7 Speak 15:10, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The map at the top of the article

Hi

I was skimming past this article when I noticed that the picture used at the top has a powerful visual message: that Israel is overwhelmingly surrounded by the "Arab League", nations that at some stage been at war with Israel.

I don't doubt the reliability of the map, and I have a question:


a.) is the map relevant to a discussion on media bias?


Cheers, S.Wilson (talk) 05:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Believe that map is not relevant at all to a discussion on media bias. RomaC (talk) 05:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. ← Michael Safyan (talk) 05:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
So do you think some one should remove it?S.Wilson (talk) 00:51, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
No. If you disagree with the map, bring it up at {{Template:Infobox Arab-Israeli conflict}}. The map is a part of the infobox for the Arab-Israeli conflict, and the conflict is certainly pertinent to the article. Including the infobox indicates that this article is related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, and it allows users to quickly navigate to other articles about the Arab-Israeli conflict. ← Michael Safyan (talk) 02:16, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi, S.Wilson. If you would like to debate the map, you should visit the talk page of Template:Infobox Arab-Israeli conflict. As for whether the map is related to media bias or perceptions of the conflict... without an article arguing that it is a form of bias, it would be impossible to write anything about it in Wikipedia. Personally, though, I have noticed that Israelis do view themselves as living in a tiny country surrounded by hostile Arab countries and surviving only miraculously, and view the conflict from the perspective of the larger map of the Middle East, whereas Palestinians view Israelis as the powerful and hostile ones, and view the conflict from the perspective of the much smaller map of Israel. If you can find an article on the subject suitable for citing in Wikipedia, then I would be interested in seeing the link. Have a good day. ← Michael Safyan (talk) 05:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Given the substantial political, economic and military support Israel receives from the United States, perhaps the US should also be included in the map? Surely they are more involved in the conflict than, say, the Comoros Islands, who are currently shown on the map as a "belligerent." Strongly suggest this misrepresentitive David vs Goliath caricature be removed, especially as it does not at all reflect on or relate to the subject of the article, which is media coverage. cheers RomaC (talk) 12:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Again, if you disagree with the map, bring it up on the talk page of the Arab-Israeli conflict infobox. To throw out the wikilinks to other pages related to the Arab-Israeli conflict over the map would be like throwing out the baby with the bath water. Please dispute the map on the infobox's talk page, not here. Thanks in advance for your understanding. ← Michael Safyan (talk) 18:41, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
No, as that forces a discussion of media coverage into another, broader and widely irrelevant context. The solution is that because some 90% of this article is about media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, to re-title it as such. "Media coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict" was the original article title. There can be a subsection that looks at "Media coverage of other news events" to cover the few ancillary items. Also, this rewritten article's raison d'etre, an analytical approach that looked at one side then the other, is being challenged by the importing from the seriously slanted previous version of the article of sections such as "Frequently cited incidents" which lists six incidents, all of which tend to argue a Pro-Palestinian bias. RomaC (talk) 04:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
I have just removed the infobox, in response to your complaints -- although, quite frankly, I find your complaints completely unreasonable and unfounded. As for the "frequently cited incidents" section, please understand that the I have written the vast majority of these article and that, I admit, I am more familiar with claims of "pro-Palestinian" or "anti-Israel" bias than with claims of "pro-Israel" or "anti-Palestinian" bias. If you know of any incidents, which meet the inclusion criteria, and which are cited by Palestinians and their advocates, then feel free to include them. On more than one occasion, I have requested assistance in helping to expand and improve the quality of the article. Thus far, only Eleland -- much to his credit -- has helped. So, if you have material to contribute to the article, then please contribute it. Otherwise, I find it rather hard to sympathize with complaints that I have not spent enough hours searching for material to include in the article. Thanks for your understanding. ← Michael Safyan (talk) 10:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Media Coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

This was the original title of the article. Propose it better reflects the content overall.RomaC (talk) 05:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The majority of the article focuses on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but there are parts which fall outside the scope of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict but within the scope of the Arab-Israeli conflict. For example, press freedom in the Middle East, the 2006 Lebanon War photographs controversies, etc. I think we should leave the title as-is, in order to allow for more flexibility with the content. ← Michael Safyan (talk) 05:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Strongly disagree. The bits that fall outside can be included in an "other" or "related" subsection. As it is the new title is being used to rationalize the David vs Goliath map in the infobox. RomaC (talk) 04:32, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Strongly disagree with your disagreement. Including aspects that fall into the wider Arab-Israeli conflict but not within the confines of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict into an "other" or "related" subsection would be illogical and would obstruct the flow of the article. Should the "other" subsection, also contain a "common claims" subsection, specific to the Arab-Israeli conflict? Should this "other" section also have its own "frequently cited incidents" subsection? It would be better to add content to the article, so that they are no longer merely "bits", than to organize the article by conflict rather than by topic. Also, per your objection that the new title exists solely to "rationalize the David vs. Goliath map"... while I strongly feel that you should argue this point on Template:Infobox Arab-Israeli conflict and that my inclusion of the infobox is both neutral and perfectly justified, I am willing to compromise and remove the infobox, since you so strongly object to it and since it is not, in my opinion, arguing over. ← Michael Safyan (talk) 10:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] DryBones Comic

Hi, RomaC. I believe you wanted to discuss the image from DryBones? While the image was pulled off of the blog, since these comics are frequently featured in the Jerusalem Post, the comic was topical, and since it is referenced only to explain its viewpoint -- not to substantiate facts -- I thought that the inclusion of the comic was appropriate. Of course, I would be glad to hear your input on the matter. ← Michael Safyan (talk) 08:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Michael Safyan, I still have reservations about blog material here but am more concerned at this point with balance, and there is also a Palestinian comic so I am satisfied. cheers RomaC (talk) 12:41, 1 June 2008 (UTC)