Talk:McGill University/Archive 1

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Contents

Tuition fees

I say,

any facts to substantiate that an Ontario student had actually to pay more tuition than an American student at any time in history?


In 1997 there was a lawsuit on this very issue where Ontario McGill studetns sued the government and lost. International studetns from ~50 countries can pay Quebec fees at McGill, which are much lower than the fees paid by other Canadians. See an article on the subject at http://www.unb.ca/bruns/9899/Issue6/News/differentials.html

SimonP 12:11 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)


But does this apply to American students? The article does not mention that. I attended McGill and I know for a fact that Americans pay international student fees. As for the students who get to pay Quebec tuition (not mention get Quebec medicare), yes, it's true... they exist. They're from countries like France, Norway etc. who have special reciprocal agreements with Quebec. I understand the agreement was something about encouraging investment in Quebec's hydropower or some such.

- former McGill student.

My mistake... your submission does not mention American students specifically but international students. However, I don't think I can accept the statement that McGill encourages international students over students from other provinces. McGill tuition, even with the out of province differential, is still lower than the local tuition at Ontario universities! (e.g. 4k/yr at McGill for out of province compared to 5k/yr local tuition at Queen's. I'm guessing it's higher at the U of T) The students who get to pay Quebec fees are from a select list of countries under special agreements; the rest of the international students pay international fees.

--

Actually, tuition at U of T/Queen's and McGill are comparable. McGill's tuition for non-Quebec Canadians is $4,012.50, while U of T's tuition for Canadians (including Ontarians) is $4,185.00 and Queen's tuition is $4,193.00. (Of course, tuition for specialized programs--e.g., commerce/management, engineering--is higher.)

Also, international students who pay Quebec rates at McGill are generally from countries that were former French colonies (i.e., Ivory Coast, Vietnam), as the Quebec government has a reciprocal agreement with these countries. Though, a friend of mine was American but had a French passport (and thus, paid Quebec rates), and another friend of mine was also American, but was born in Quebec, and was also able to pay Quebec rates despite his citizenship.

Most of the time, tuition is based on how long you have lived somewhere, because of the taxes. Tuition in Canada is subsidized by taxes, so although you're a Canadian citizen, if you've lived in say the USA, you pay international rates. You have to live somewhere in Canada generally 3 years or more to get the "home rate". Spinboy 05:37, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This is patently false, at least with respect to McGill, and probably other Quebec universities. When I was there, I had at least two friends who were Canadian citizens but spent most of their lives in the States, and paid Canadian tuition rates to attend. Not to mention, Quebec universities do have bilateral agreements with many countries, including France and Vietnam, to allow citizens of those countries to pay Quebec tuition rates (which are half of what "Canadians" pay and less than a quarter of what international students typically pay). Darkcore 06:10, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I was more refering to Universities outside Quebec, from what I have seen. I do remember a big case in Quebec where students sued the government claiming that their paying more was unconstitutional. I believe they lost. Spinboy 06:14, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The rules on Quebec tuition include some exceptions. Even if you hold the passport of a country with a reciprocal agreement, you are not eligible to pay Quebec tuition if, for example, you have done high school in a Canadian province other than Quebec. Kalanga 20:38, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

3rd oldest university in Canada

Someone says on the Page that McGill is the 3rd oldest university in Canada after Dalhousie and Laval. Dalhousie is certainly older (1818 compared to 1821) but Laval was founded in 1852 (when the Seminaire du Quebec was granted a University Charter by Queen Victoria). I am not absolutely sure how McGill's age stacks up in Canada (and doubt it really matters!) but it is certainly older than Laval. However, the University of Kings College is older than both (founded in Windsor Nova Scotia in 1789 as the first university in Canada.) so McGill may actually be the third oldest! Someone who knows more than I do needs to fix this page!

  -Actually, University of New Brunswick is the oldest English University in Canada, having been founded in 1785.Mcgill is certainly the oldest of the most presitigious Canadian ones.

70.50.159.126 09:35, 9 March 2006 (UTC)MP

Public vs. private

The article currently states that McGill is a public institution, but Private school says: "Private schools, in the United States, Australia, Scotland, and other English-speaking countries, are schools not administered by local or national government, which retain the right to select their student body and are funded in whole or in part by charging their students tuition rather than with public funds." According to this definition, McGill is a private school. It is: 1) In an English Speaking Country. 2) Not administered by local or National Government. 3) Funded in part by charging its students tuition. Adjusting 01:48, 2005 Mar 16 (UTC)

It's a public institution/school. --Spinboy 01:52, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"Public school" is probably not the best description; it is a "public university," which means that it can either be a state-run system (like the Universite du Quebec) or a privately-managed school that is maintained by public funds (like McGill). When a school is publicly-funded (i.e., paid for largely through tax dollars), it is considered to be "public." Indeed, McGill charges lower tuition rates for Quebec residents than Canadians at large (another sign that it is a public university) whereas a private school would not make such a distinction. Darkcore 03:22, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

McGill is in fact a private university that is *partially* publicly funded, whereas school like UQAM (Universite de Quebec a Montreal are both run and funded by the province). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.94.175.196 (talk • contribs)

No. McGill is a public university that obtains about one-third of its operating revenues from the provincial government and is, in fact, overseen by the Ministère de l'Éducation. The term "public university" relates specifically to funding and oversight, not the management of the institution itself. According to [1], the section "La responsabilité de chaque université et le rôle du Ministère" (The universities' responsibilities and the role of the Ministry [of Education]):
In Quebec, the universities are independent of the government and are autonomous in terms of their individual operation and activities. By law or constitutional charter, the legislature has entrusted to each university the ability to define their own curricula as well as their own teaching and research programs.
The individual university has the ability to determine regulations specific to the admission and registration of its students, to issue its own diplomas, and to carry out the hiring of its own staff.
With respect to the university, the ministry is involved in the creation of agreements, policies, and budgetary rules which define the financial support [they receive] to assist them in realizing their missions. However, the ministry does not intervene in the process of managing these institutions.
Sorry for the rough translation. Darkcore 22:54, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
When did McGill begin to be supported by public funds and how did that happen ? As I understand from the History section on the university's own website, McGill was originally private.200.177.20.20 19:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Though McGill's founding was due to donation of land and $$$ from James McGill it was never enough and from Day 1 the University (or the Royal Institution) tried to get government funding to add to the initial endowement and the fees paid by students. Often this was, and is, tied to a specific project such as a new building or a research program. As with all Canadian universities, in the 1960s the % of government funding increased (and includes funds for general operating activities) but it, and most other Canadian universities) are, in my opinion, properly classified as "private" because the Quebec government does not appoint members of the senior governing body (in McGill's case the Board of Governors). They can be 'encouraged' to do what the government wants ("if you build a school of pharmacy we will reduce your budget by $x") but at the end of the day the Board can borrow funds to do what it wants. David 22:19, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


Fraternity info

Factoid deleted from article with comment Wikipedia isn't a directory that might conceivably be useful:

McGill is also home to Canada's largest and oldest Fraternity. As soon as Zeta Psi came to Toronto, as the pioneer of Greek letter fraternities in Canada, her zealous brothers immediately conceived the idea of starting a sister chapter at their rival university. In those days, there was but a slender thread of communication between the two institutions, and the hopes of the Theta Xi might have thus been thwarted for many years had it not been for Robert Fulford Ruttan from Toronto, who decided in 1881 to pursue his medical studies at McGill. Ruttan, though not a Zete, numbered many of the active chapter at Varsity among his intimate friends, and they commissioned him to lay the groundwork for the foundation of a chapter in Montreal. He painstakingly collected a small group of enthusiastic fellow medical students and petitioned Grand Chapter to grant a charter to the fledgling group. The petition was successful, and on the morning of January 3, 1883, Bros. A.L. Cameron (then Phi of Theta Xi) and Henry Brook (Theta Xi, '81) arrived in Montreal to install the new chapter. It was to be called Alpha Psi. [2] This chapter has produced Conrad Harrington, Former Chancellor of McGill University, Eric Molson Chairman, Molson Beer Companies and in 1915, more than half the workers at the McGill Base Hospital were Zetes from Alpha Psi.
Please sign your posts with four tides (~~~~). Now, that being said, this isn't the place for that. Put it in the article about Zeta Psi. --Spinboy 03:54, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sorry I forgot to sign. I have no idea what Zeta Psi is, but that does seem like encyclopedic information, so I thought it shouldn't just disappear. If you've moved it there we can just delete it here. --Andrew 04:01, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)

Neutrality

Is this article neutral? I found that some passages are more advertissement for the University than information. Try to not make to many enumerations.

Yes.. I'm wondering about some of these 'Facts and Trivia'. Can someone point me to the Wikipedia page outlining the policy regarding advertisement? --bleh fu talk fu June 29, 2005 15:06 (UTC)

Hazing

Hi. On this note, I'd like to know why YCCHAN has taken it upon his/herself to delete my mention of the hazing scandal at McGill this year? It was a major news story that garnered international attention. Seems to me that this crosses the line from fact editing to attempting to erase the truth because it doesn't serve his promotional agenda for McGill (of which I am a former Post-Grad). YCCHAN presents himself as someone who cares about Wikipedia, so I'd like to know his justification for this form of censorship, which I believe is in violation of the very website he purports to care about. This is the offending sentence: "On a less positive note, McGill's Redmen football program was rocked by a hazing scandal in 2005 and the remainder of the season was cancelled by school officials." Is there anyone out there, other than YCCHAN, who believes it is not relevant to the McGill entry? Dec. 17, 2005

It works better when you provide references so people can verify the information you are adding. It probably doesn't belong in the introductory section, but since the article doesn't have a section on sports yet, I'm not sure where it would fit better. Also, I've removed your addition of this under hazing as that's not an appropriate place. If hazing listed every hazing event, it would be cumbersomely long. -- JLaTondre 02:24, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I added the hazing reference in the McGill entry and I thank JLaTondre for his help. I understand that the intro is not the best place for it so I have moved entry, along the article link, to the Trivia section next to the mention of McGill football. Hopefully this will satisfy YCCHAN and others -- and still allow me to make some reference to this important episode in the life of McGill athletics, which was reported internationally. Shawn; Dec. 17.

Plagiarism in this article

I was surprised to find that a good portion of the "History" section of this article was lifted directly from a McGill University Web page (http://www.archives.mcgill.ca/public/hist_mcgill/rvc/rvc.htm) The lifted text was not quoted, nor referenced, nor was there even a link to the site as an "External link." It seems to me that we need to do something to improve the history section and not just repeat another Web page verbatim (even if we quote and reference it).

--Vitamin D 04:11, 11 July 2005 (UTC)


Moved comments

(If this is an encyclopedia judgement should not be included, simply presentation of facts from reliable sources is all that should be included...this does not include Jiao Tong University). User:163.1.217.91 (moved from main page brenneman(t)(c) 16:26, 15 July 2005 (UTC))

WARNING

There's one individual who regularly vandalizes articles concerning the University of Toronto, Mcgill, and U of Western Ontario. Initially, he deleted large amount of content. This action was noticed by Wikipedia users and subsequently, he tried to vandalize by changing referenced content and inserting invalid and non-referenced content.

Please be aware of this individual and try to protect our wikipedia as many users are already consistently reverting his/her vandalism.

To date, he has been using the following IPs:

163.1.217.91 163.1.216.155 163.1.216.156


Interestingly, all 3 IP address backtrace to computers at Oxford University.

October 2005 edits by 65.92.247.12

Greetings. I've reverted your edits twice now because in both instances your content seemed fairly biased. You may be interested to read Wikipedia's policy on maintaining a Neutral Point Of View. Also, nearly all of the facts in your edits are redundant. For example, all of the famous people you mention are already covered under the 'Noted Alumni' section. I found the fact that "there has been a McGill competitor at every Olympic Games since 1900" interesting though, so I added that under the 'Trivia/Facts' section where I think it fits. You should also be aware of the 3-Revert-Rule on Wikipedia. If there is a disagreement over content, it should be discussed instead of letting things devolve into an edit war. Cheers. --PeruvianLlama(spit) 21:53, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Current presidents of other Canadian universities

How is this relevant to McGill University? I think this should be removed.


They are relevant because they are McGill alumni. Didn't you notice that they're under the alumni section? 24.141.162.244 08:46, 29 December 2005 (UTC) Edit

make page for "list of McGill people" ?

For Alumni

McGill Ghetto

I replaced the reference to La Cite in the section on the McGill Ghetto. The person who deleted may not have been around or even born in the 70s, but I can assure you that it had an unprecendented impact on the area. Shawn, Montreal 06/2006

  • That maybe true, however the passage is not clear. One might assume La Cite was the Hotel McGill acquired but in fact it was Hotel Rennaissance. A reword perhaps? YCCHAN 05:13, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Ah, my old pal YCCHAN (I'm the "hazing" guy)... the Hotel Renaissance was just the last name the hotel had during its existence. Hotels in Montreal frequently change branding and this one was no exception. It was previously called Loews LaCite, among other things. The hotel was always an integral part of the LaCite complex, along with the office and partment towers, and underground mall. I have changed the wording to indicate that it was the hotel component the University acquired, and not the whole thing. Personally, I don't see the confusion. Shawn, Montreal 06/2006

  • Let me further expand on the above for the youngsters. The whole massive thing was built as a single development, at the same time, by developers who hoped that this would truly become the nexus for a new downtown -- hence the use of the term LaCite (the City), and the anxiety of area residents who feared the entire neighborhood would be engulfed. As a CEGEP student in the mid-70s I interviewed a urban studies prof who was part of the movement to block further development... wish I could remember his name. Shawn, Montreal 07/2006

Actually, I forgot that it was originally called Cite Concordia while in the planning stages. Anyway, here I quote Montreal architect PIETER SIJPKES "Cite Concordia (now called La Cite) was stopped before it could engulf all of the McGill ghetto." [3] Shawn again, 07/2006

  • Ah... you see people now actually understand the history behind the La Cite complex. Theres no use if this is left unexplained is it? Not everyone is as "old" as you are ;) YCCHAN 01:15, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
For the current day McGill Ghetto, there are many pictures on Commons, if one is interested. Most of them are on fr:Ghetto McGill. Gene.arboit 04:33, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

References and Acclaim

The big 4 schools in Canada are all excellent institutions. There is no sense in those trying to improve the manner in which Toronto, McGill, Queens or UWO are portrayed on this page. If there's a reference that is truly a fabrication, then remove it. Otherwise, do not vandalize schools' pages.

FYI, theres no such thing as the "big four" and no one is trying vandalize the pages. There is already discussion of excessive references in the introduction, it does not belong there. Your reference is a true fabrication.

See University of Toronto and Queen's University Pages. They all include references at the top paragraph. Your edits do not make any sort of contribution or clarification, whereas I have clarified and improved upon the references at the aforementionned (see history, I did not insert them). In addition, other schools such as Harvard, Princeton, Yale and the like observe a similar formatting. Please be mindful of Wikipedia Etiquette and do not proceed with senseless reversions.

Speaking of Wikipedia "etiquette," it is customary to sign your comments with ~~~~ so that we can know who is saying what. I may not be an authoritative source of information about McGill (although I attended McGill, so I'm at least somewhat authoritative) but it's common knowledge that the Princeton Review is not considered a reliable source of information about schools, particularly with respect to Canadian schools (since they don't look at all Canadian universities and their pool of data within universities is often really small). Also, all of the articles you mentioned (Harvard University, Princeton University etc.) don't say anything along the lines of "It is the best known Canadian University and has earned comparisons to Harvard by such authoritative rankings at The Princeton Review for its admissions selectivity, dedication to excellence and the rigour of its programs." First, "best known Canadian University" is highly POV. Best known by whom? Canadians? Americans? In my experience, people in NYC have heard of McGill (and maybe U of T or Queen's) but when I've been to Washington State, a lot of people there have only heard of UBC. Second, where is your citation for McGill's "admissions selectivity, dedication to excellence and the rigour of its programs"? I know, for a fact, that McGill is nowhere near as selective as Harvard in its admissions and I ask you to prove me wrong by providing a referenced statistic. As for "dedication to excellence" and academic rigour, these are highly subjective. What, exactly, is dedication to excellence anyway? And how do you define academic rigour?
Your addition is full of POV and bias, which is why I (and others) have reverted the change. Don't get me wrong - McGill is a fantastic school and I think it has a lot going for it. But if we want to boast about McGill's achievements, we should provide concrete (and referenced) numbers and statistics, and avoid POV-laden university boosterism. Darkcore 19:57, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I think he's right - you seem pretty biased yourself and looks like someone sent our anonymous friend a vadalism warning. I goes both ways. I would remove the Toronto references if I were truly as committed to the truth as you. Goldcity.

What Toronto references? Darkcore 08:09, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I believe it's pretty much a NPOV fact that McGill is one of, if not the best known Canadian Universities worldwide. Wherever I travel, people recognize the name. I did (among other degrees) an MBA at McGill and I realize that this is only anecdotal evidence, but my international MBA colleagues from around the world repeatedly told me they chose McGill because of its reputation in their home countries. I'm talking about people from Pakistan, China, South America etc...Of course as I've said, this evidence is purely anecdotal, but then again, there is no other way of determining what Universities are best known worldwide. People simply don't travel around the world conducting these types of surveys. If saying McGill is one of the best known Canadian Universities worldwide is not NPOV, then, for example, the article on Harvard claiming that it is one of the world's most prestigious Universities would have to be edited as well. However in doing so we'd be deleting a very important and obvious fact.Loomis51 15:45, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I can attest to the fact that McGill is the most well known Canadian school overseas.When I was doing my research about which schools to apply to in North America for my undergraudate degree,McGill was the only Canadian school that people in my country knew.It was only after I came to Canada that I heard about UWO.While I agree that every school has its own merits and demerits, you have to hand it to McGill for having the most international reputation of all Canadian schools .BTW i hail from India.132.216.66.111 00:51, 6 March 2006 (UTC)Mp
Interestingly enough, the article on Harvard University makes no mention that it is "one of the world's most prestigious universities." That aside, anecdotal evidence is not factual, and it's hard to make broad-sweeping generalizations with such a small sample of data (e.g., your MBA classmates). And really, it doesn't add much to the article by saying it is "one of the best known universities in Canada, if not the best known." Best known by whom? Academics? Professionals? Soccer moms? Let's stick to facts and avoid generalizations. Darkcore 01:11, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Faculties

Is Centre of continuing education a faculty? I think not. YCCHAN 23:02, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

McGill itself lists ContEd as a faculty. [4] Darkcore 23:05, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Hm. on the Mcgill website, it says there are eleven faculties, ten schools and "the centre of continuing education". The wiki page:
McGill's academic units are divided among eleven faculties and a number of schools, the Centre for Continuing Education and Graduate and Postdoctoral Studies.
  1. Faculty of Agricultural and Environmental Sciences
  2. Faculty of Arts
  3. Faculty of Dentistry
  4. Faculty of Education
  5. Faculty of Engineering
  6. Faculty of Law
  7. Desautels Faculty of Management
  8. Faculty of Medicine
  9. Schulich School of Music
  10. Faculty of Religious Studies
  11. Faculty of Science
    • Centre for Continuing Education <--- repetitive??

YCCHAN 00:34, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Changes

I'd like to merge the Royal Institution for the Advancement of Learning article into the history section of this article and move the McGill Ghetto information to a separate article. Unless anyone objects, I will do this within the next couple of days. Darkcore 23:15, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

endowment figures

McGill facts of 2004-2005 state an endowment of $760 million CDN. The total operating budget in 2004 to 2005 is $928 million CDN (possibly, a bit higher now). $981 million seems a bit high. Theres a difference between operating budget and endowment.

Just noticed something, did you add the private support (2003-2004) to the total operating budget revenue (2003-2004) 51,676,555 + 928,818,000 = ~981 million CDN.

You're right, my bad. Please - sign your comments. Darkcore 00:11, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Formatting for Campus section

Can someone do some ingenious formatting to fix the Campus Section The pictures are messing up the section underneath. --Funkmaster 801 19:30, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Pictures

Does anyone know if the photographs on McGill's website (in the "campus scenes" section) qualify under fair use? This article could use more pictures and I really dislike the three that are currently there - the Arts Building picture is of low-quality, the fog in the McTavish picture makes it difficult to see anything, and the Roddick Gates picture has a car obstructing much of the shot. The campus scenes website has a plethora of good pictures (about five year's worth)! If this isn't possible, could someone local get some better shots of the campus? Darkcore 06:47, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I think it will qualify as fair use if you have permission from the photographer, Claudio Calligaris or McGill University. I don't know whether he is an independant photographer or professional hired to take the pictures. Nonetheless, once the pictures are submitted, it will not be returned and become the property of the university. YCCHAN 17:34, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Solved! I added about 8 photos, including a new one of the arts building at a higher resolution. Beltz 01:43, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Your photos are garbage unfortunately

Playboy

Shouldn't it be mentioned somewhere that McGill was the only Canadian university that made the list of "Top Ten Party Schools" in Playboy magazine (and it's going to get a pictorial) ? I dunno, it seems worthy enough to be written in the article... -Voievod 23:53, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Userbox

For those who are interested, I've made a "Current/Former Student" Userbox for McGill, since we didn't seem to have one. It will automatically add you to the "Wikipedians by Alma Matter/McGill" category.

Just put {{User McGill}} on your userpage, and the userbox will show up and automatically put you in the category -- pm_shef 00:18, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


Not a press release

Just a friendly reminder that this is (ideally) a factual encyclopedia article and not a press release. I suspect the oft-removed paragraph about the football hazing incident is viewed as embarassing but that's just not a good reason for removing the information. If you believe it should not be here and have good reason(s) (not notable, poorly cited, inaccurate, etc.), discuss it here instead of just removing it with no discussion and no edit summary. Thanks! --ElKevbo 02:14, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not censored. --Ardenn 19:14, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

playboy

I agree with a previous comment. I think it is worthy to mention McGill was cited in the Top 10 Party universities by Playboy. I just don't know in which section to add it.


McGill français movement

This section needs to be rewritten and sources cited. It currently uses terminology that is both not supported and/or is "quick speak" to achieve a certain perception. Lionel GM 09:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

GA review

I have promoted this article to WP:GOOD in accordance with the criteria listed at WP:WIAGA. I think it is well-written and well-referenced, and covers the subject well. I think it is overall very compliant with WP:NPOV, and the images are well-chosen, well-photographed, and add a lot to the article. It could, perhaps, use some additional references — look for paragraphs without footnotes. —ptk✰fgs 00:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)