Talk:MBDA Aster

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[edit] Range

The article mentions that the Aster 30 AAM has a range of up to 120km, whereas the Standard SM2 (block 3 i believe) has a range stated of some 167km - approximately 50% longer. Whilst no more than a naval enthusiast and with no experience in the area, i would have thought that such a range reduction in comparison would have at least led to a mention somewhere. After all, isnt it easier to destroy an inbound aircraft with many ASMs on their racks at long range, rather than dealing with multiple, agile and faster targets at a shorter range? In essense, is the short range of the Aster missiles (the 15 effectively being point-defence only) a concern? Kirby Rourke 11:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

It's a complex issue. Missile range is not as simple as just "how far will the missile go" - it's also a matter of how well it can maneuver when it gets there. Many missiles are next to useless at their maximum stated ranges because they arrive with no energy left an maneuver, meaning they can't actually hit anything. Some manufacturers will give this 'useless' range as the range of their missile to make it sound more impressive, while others will state the maximum 'useful' range of the missile. I have no idea if that is the case with the Aster vs SM2, just saying you should be aware of the possibility that you are not necessarily comparing like with like. There is also a question of target acquisition and guidance; unless your target is obliging enough to travel at high altitude, your ship's surface radar isn't going to see it at anything like 167 km so having missiles with that range is rather pointless. BobThePirate 13:57, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, it gets even more complex than that.
  • First of all, there are substantial discrepancies in reported ranges. Aster 30 actually has ranges estimated from 80-120km. SM-2 actually has two or three common estimates flowing in the "marketplace". The most common being 74km and >138km (for some reason numbers in the middle aren't very popular). IMO, the lower range is more consistent with alternate measures, since most agree the SM-1 has a range of 46km, and the SM-2 has about 60% more range due to the more efficient INS/CG/SARH guidance.
  • Second point, the Aster 30 is a lighter missile than the Standard.
  • Furthermore, any missile is a mix of compromises. An applicable one is that Standard is slow for a long range SAM - only Mach 3.5 peak. This actually benefits it in range, because low-speed flight is more efficient. A similar effect occurs with the HQ-9 and Tien Kung II. Few would think China and Taiwan has better rocket tech than Russia and the US, yet both have a nominally 200km range (matching the S-300PMU2 and longer than the Patriot PAC-3's "big" missiles). The trick is that they are slower (~Mach 4 vs Mach 5 or Mach 6).
  • Taking an extreme, the massive 9A82 Giant has a remarkably low range of 100km. This is no doubt partially due to its enormous speed of Mach 8. Since the Russians were interested in shooting down Pershing IRBMs, the compromise suited them fine, and the SA-12B came out as the first conventional ABM system against IRBMs.
  • Tactically, long ranges are somewhat useful. At the very least, they can force the enemy down, and that forces them to waste fuel. Some attacking missiles have shorter ranges when fired at lower altitudes (the Kh-22/AS-4 family being an example). With active homing SAMs and datalinking, the ship's surface radar is less important. Though pK would no doubt degrade severely, you could in principle shower the enemy with your weapons using intermittent updates from an AEW helicopter or aircraft.
  • In practice, however, there is a point when you just have to say "enough" as you design missiles. In practice, the enemy can plain outrange your SAM with relative ease. Other factors, like a fast speed so your director can re-allocate the guidance uplink faster. Or a smaller missile so you can put cram more onto the ship and take up less volume. Kazuaki Shimazaki 15:46, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
The reason why the range in the middle might not be popular is perhaps because of the difference between SM-2 MR and SM-2 ER - the extended range variant could be the source of the higher quote. But thankyou kindly for your input, i hadnt considered the speed of the missile as a major determinate as i figured it wouldnt be important if the target was comng right at you, however in the role of area defence, the target might not actually be the ship (or whatever), rather some third target which still needs to be protected. Your reply was enlightening :). 220.235.159.58 03:27, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Standardize

This article could benefit from a new paragraph that objectively compares the euro Aster with the american Standard SM-2 and SM-3 systems. In weapons markets it is conventional wisdom that european products look good on paper and in tests, but can never match the combat performance, delivery on schedule and reliability of US products (e.g. JAS-39 / Eurofighter / Rafale are still not fully fielded, yet cannot match the vintage-based F-16 Block 6x and F-15E). 82.131.210.162 12:13, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Eurofighter can't match the F16 or F15E? That's absurd. Eurofighter would wipe the floor with either one in air to air combat. The F15E probably outdoes it in air to ground, but that's hardly anything to write home about since Eurofighter isn't really a dedicated strike aircraft like the F15E is so you aren't comparing like with like. You might as well say it's inferior to the Galaxy because it doesn't carry cargo. BobThePirate 11:57, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Characteristics Section - are you sure?

1) Can the onboard radar really track 300 objects? 2) What is meteo, in the context of the role of an onboard radar system? Davidelit 07:07, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Onboard means shipboard in this context. I'm pretty sure "meteo" means it can act as a weather radar to detect masses of clouds and rain. --Kazuaki Shimazaki 09:47, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
That makes more sense. I was wondering how the manufacturers bent the laws of physics to fit all that capability on a 180mm antenna! In any case, that section is ambiguous at best, and presumably belongs in an article discussing the entire weapons system, including the radar. Unfortunately, I'm not the person to write it as I don't have any info... Davidelit 11:32, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I just changed "onboard" to "shipboard" - even though the Aster system seems to have a land variant, it seems primarily navalised so i've replaced it with that to (hopefully) reduce confusion. Whether it deserves its own article is still open for debate. 58.7.187.79 (talk) 10:32, 21 April 2008 (UTC)