Talk:Mazandarani people

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[edit] Older revision

This article is required to revertion to it's older edition, Since the user Bahram removed some of it's information --Ali 15:31, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Language of Mazandaran

Urban population of Mazandaran as well as a significant fraction of Rural population are native speakers of Persian language. Mazandarani is considered a second language for many Mazandaranis and they don't use it for professional life. Sangak 20:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but just try to change the article to acknowledge this fact. Certain users insist on putting "Mazandarani" first; it seems to be some sort of minority activism. But see [1], which definitely describes Mazandarani as a secondary language. Mazandarani language lost ground to Persian over the centuries, and at this point is spoken less than Persian in the province. The Behnam 00:04, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Whether it is the first or second doesn't matter, please don't make a big deal from this. Mazandarani is alive and should be kept alive, not only because it is the dialect/language of a part of Iranians, but also since it is a backup for Persian. We, Iranians should be proud of it.
Bravo! But current political status of iran is complexer than attending to the divisions of iranians and their language and ethnic, Culture & music ... I believe we could have the chance to feeling the post-modernism, the time for respecting local culture and architecture --Parthava (talk) 13:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Genetics in the infobox

While Ali seems to object to listing Persian, the linked genetics document [2] actually lists their genetics relationships as such (from page one), in order of closest genetics:

  1. To each other and to other Iranian groups,
  2. To Caucasian people,
  3. Europeans,
  4. Central Asians

If you really object to the inclusion of Persians we can simply write Iranian peoples in the infobox. I propose ordering them by closeness in the infobox to look something like "Gilaki and other Iranian peoples, Caucasian people". The Behnam 06:17, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

There is no question that Mazandaranis are related, very related, to Persians. But in order to avoid listing too many things and arguing over the order of their inclusion, I think it is best to just say "other Iranian peoples", which is correct and simple. Shervink 11:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think there is question either, but apparently that's nonsense. So I'll change it to the Iranian peoples form and hopefully everyone will be happy. Ali, if there is still an issue with this, please speak up. Thanks. The Behnam 16:29, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I forgot to including Iranians, but where is zazas ? --Ali 07:29, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
According to Zaza, the Zazas are also an Iranian peoples, so they are an implicit member of the list because of the listing of "Iranian peoples". Is there some reason that they should be explicitly listed? The Behnam 19:19, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I found their language resembles our language, i am sure that we share some common cultures and maybe they are our cousins --Ali 06:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Im guessing Persians and Mazandaranis are cousins, i would also bet they were probably in the area of Mazandaran before the Persian's migrated to the area, similar to the elamites, bakhtiaris and lurs who were all present in Iran before the Aryan and Persian tribes migrated. I would also guess that Mazandaranis have roots in the Caucasus due to their fairer skin colour.

Yes, Yes, You are right, I also found something interesting, Mazandaranis also similar to lebanese and syrian people, who are known as white skin arabs, Acctually they are not arabs, they however speak arabic, Also armenians, I also saw that many of the armenian people live there,

Mazandaranis were one of the most ancient native people of iran, whom were have known and known as people who never loose their iranian culture, not aryan, but iranian, a culture of region which then aryans adopted it, Also Lurs are our nearest cousins than persian, since i found many similarities whitin our lamguages, Yeah, if aryans were camed during 4-8 millinium years ago, Mazandaranis were living there for the longest time among other iranians, See also genetic information in External links section, Also see iranian legends such as Shahnama and many avestan references (not avestan language, but books reterevied from them) --Ali 17:48, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


mazandarani isnt arabic you idiots its 60% persian driven from persian languages like pahlavi. and mazandaranis are aryan. the shah of iran was from mazandaran and a true persian nationalist. lurs,tatis,mazandaranisz,tylish,gilakis are all persian culturally blodline in behaviour and mostly in language.this division is just crap. even many websites even some of the new released cia fact books state mazandarani/gilakis/lurs/and bakhterians as persian groups. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.27.157 (talk) 22:04, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

We don't talk about culturs, we talk about genes, So the sources claim that it is, Also Mazanderanis were never arabs, but their cousines became arab, turk and persian. Also the language of persians highly influenced by Parthians, And it is mutually unintelligble with respect to middle persian, Persians influenced, not mazanderanis, I saw that persians were first Suunis and then becomed Shia during Safavid dynasty, But mazanderanis were converted to Shia Islam directly, If persians were originated from Pars province, So why Sivandi and Lari languages are very difficult to understand? --Ali 23:13, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Also all of Mazanderanis are proud for their iranian blood, But not persian blood, Unfotunately persians call the coutry as Persia, azeris call it as azerbaijan as balochs call it as Balochistan, Arabs also call khuzistan as Arabistan, And turkamans call the Northern Khorasan as Southern Turkmenistan, But Reza Shah reunified the iran and asked to calling this country as iran, and not persia, Mazanderanis are claiming as iranian first of all --Ali 23:21, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Some discussions here are with the presumption that: everybody who speaks Persian as the mother tongue is necessarily "Persian". That is wrong. They are simply Iranian people who left their other Iranian dialect/language and accepted Dari Persian as their mother tongue. They are "Pârsi-zabân" (one who speaks Persian) and not necessarily "Persian". Some of those previous dialects/languages are still existent although some in the verge of disappearance, including some dialects in Esfahan and Fars province like Davâni and Iranian languages/dialects of Jews in Iran. The last means that you can track the original language of presently Persian-Speaking people in the Iranian languages of Jews.

Interesting subject, on history of Georgian people in Mazandaran region. It would be great to see some sources on this, so I added a fact tag. Atabek (talk) 23:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References

I tried to find reliable references for this article. However, I do not find any reference for two issues

  • Mazandarani is spoken in Gilan, Golestan, Semnan, and Tehran provinces.
  • It is less influences by non-Iranian languages compare to other Iranian languages.

For the time being I keep them. However, I added the citation tag on them. Please improve the article if you know reliable references for these information. I may remove unsourced material if the tags remain for a long time--Larno Man (talk) 23:36, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, Finally I found some good sources and added them--Larno Man (talk) 05:03, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
In Any case it is spoken in Golestan. Golestan has been previously part of Mazandaran.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 05:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
It might be true, but I was looking for a reference. Anyway, I re-wrote this part based on sources that I found.--Larno Man (talk) 05:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Population

Statoids.org http://www.statoids.com/uir.html gives this information on the population of these provinces (based on the 2006 Iranian census:

  • Golestan IR.GO 27 gs IR37 1,617,087
  • Mazandaran IR.MN 21 mz IR35 2,920,657

Almost All permanent population of Mazandaran is Mazandarani, and at least (if not more) 2/3 of Golestan is Mazandarani. there live also Mazandarani elsewhere in Iran, notably in big cities such as Tehran.

the totall number would be near 4 million (not counted those elsewhere in Iran).

--Babakexorramdin (talk) 07:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC) I agree that this looks like original research (not really), but in the country in which there is no ethnic censuses, this methods gives the most reliable results.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 07:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Population is more than just 4 million
in the current west mazanderan province and east gilan province no one could distinguish the gilakis and mazanderanis, Also we never counted the people immigrated to another part of world, when i was in germany, i wondered how many mazanderanis are there, Also many of cities around iran, Tehran's major and original people are also mazanderani (doesn't counted) --Parthava (talk) 12:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
That is what I said, more than 4 million. But we do not know how many more.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 13:32, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


I checked three other references and they estimated the population of Mazandarani People 1.5-3.5 million.
I also draw your attention to couple of issues.
  • Large proportion of Golestan population is Turkmen, Persian, and Turk
  • Many Persians live in Mazandaran as well as Gilaki people who dominant some western parts of Mazandaran province
Therefor, I think you overestimated the population. Unless you provide references on proportion of Mazandarani people in Golestan :and Mazandaran your estimation is very rough. --Larno Man (talk) 13:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Turkmens in Golestan are some half Millions. Persians are those migrants from elsewhere. There are also Kurds and Baluchi migrants as well as kazakhs, but all are small numbers. In West mazandaran and east Gilan they are Deylami. In mazandaran itself many ethnic groups such as Kurds, Georgians, Afghans (no migrants) who live there for generation, are assimilated into mazandarani. Then the mountaineous part of Semnan and some mountainoeus parts of tehran speak mazandarani too. 1.5 is too few, 3.5 is closer to the reality but if we take the upper limits for all ethnic groups, then we should be consistent and take that also for mazandarani. 4 Million seems accurate--Babakexorramdin (talk) 14:50, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

All of the estimations by any site about population are unreliable, Also deylamits are not living in the coastal region as you remarked, Other ethnics could be clearly distinguished, simply since those afghans, georgians and persians in mazanderani have no brighten skins, So they didn't assimilated though they speak mazanderani. --Parthava (talk) 16:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Many Kurds and Georgians were fairskinned. They are assimilated. Only Turkmens did not assimilate, because they are in rather large numbers and are sunni. BTW: were do the deylamis live according to you?--Babakexorramdin (talk) 20:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] numbers of georgians who migrated to mazandaran

Larno Man asked:

"Also, Babak provide more information. Give me a number on Georgians who migrated to Mazandaran? Is it a notable number?"

I should check the sources fro the exact number. I remember one source said that a European traveller spoke of 12000 Georgians in Farah Abad. In total some 200000 Georgians were displaced and abig share of them were replaced in mazandaran. It was a notable number, especially in the 17th century.

See also http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.pdf. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


sorry it spoke of 12000 families--Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
12000 !!!!!! Even the population of the city of sari in about 150 years ago was not more than 20,000 people, Shiraz at the time of zand dynasty had not more than 35,000 residents, Also because of Nasidze is georgian name and mazanderanis are caucasian, (or people in caucasia are mazanderani-originated) has nothing to do with this issue. Today gorji towns have no more than 4-5 thousand peoples (the largest one in behshahr has no more than 5,000 people in about 1000 families, Although census about cities are wrong but i think it is correct about villages), Also many of farah-abadis were killed due to russian attacks --Parthava (talk) 16:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
this is why there is a big question mark behind 12000 Georgian families in farah Abad. probably the traveller meant Mazandaran in general, or he had counted 12000 Georgian males, and has thought that they all have families. 12000 in the 17th century was indeed a big number. In AlamAra is written that once 3000 famlies left Georgia for Mazandaran. Iranian And Georgian sources agree with each other that the number of georgian migrants to Iran were about 200000 in the 17th century. A lot of them if not most went to mazandaran. Nasidze is Georgian, but also Germans and Iranians particpated in that research. Just go to the link and you see it. Finally I should add it that most of these Georgians were assimilated. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 20:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC)