Talk:Max and Moritz

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[edit] Not strip

"Max und Moritz" was not a comic strip. It is more accurately characterized as an "illustrated story book" and can certainly not claim to be the first comic strip.

Question of definition. It was probably more of a comic strip than many other things produced around that era. I heard Yellow Kid were mostly single-panel cartoons, for instance. I've skimmed through the book again, and you can basically make out most of the story without reading any text at all, unlike some other early comics.

Of course it's a question of definition. If you define a pig as a pigeon, then pigs have wings. The problem is, any definition that includes "Max und Moritz" also includes a lot of other material that most people are not used to thinking of as comic strips. M&M is basically an illustrated children's story in rhymed verse. So is "The Cat in the Hat". Is that a comic strip?

Almost everything that we normally call a comic strip is a serialized publication; that is, it appears in installments. M&M was published as a single story (see below).

Comic strips generally have text and image explicitly linked. Most commonly, the text is in a balloon pointed at the image of the character speaking; or the text may appear within the frame line surrounding a panel. Some commentators make a case for counting as "comic strips", series of images, where each image has a small block of descriptive text placed underneath it. For an example, see Ally Sloper. M&M is verse with pictures inserted at irregular intervals.

Any definition of "comic strip" broad enough to include both M&M and a modern-day strip (say, Blondie) would surely also include the picture stories of Rodolphe Töpffer. These stories were published (serially in newspapers) in 1833-1846, and are a known influence on Wilhelm Busch. If M&M (1865) was a comic strip, it certainly was not the first comic strip.

I find no support for the statement made in this article, "... began newspaper publication in 1865." According to a story on the website of German media group WDR, Busch published his earlier picture stories in the weekly newspaper "Die Fliegenden Blätter"; but his publisher, Caspar Braun, decided to bring M&M out as a book. The first copies went on the market on April 4, 1865.

I must also disagree with the parenthetical phrase in the article, "the direct (though never credited) inspiration for the Katzenjammer Kids". Martin Sheridan, in "Comics and Their Creators" (Luna Press, New York, 1971), writes: "The ... comic strip editor of the Journal asked [Rudolph] Dirks to draw a strip emulating the work of Wilhelm Busch ...". It's probably true that Busch was never credited in the strip itself, but what other comic strip ever credited its source? Gwil 19:19, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Comparison of Max & Moritz with Alice in Wonderland

It is interesting to compare Max & Moritz with Alice in Wonderland. Both appeared in 1865, and soon became (for their respective audiences) popular tales of children interacting with an adult world. However, it's notable that they took completely opposite approaches: Alice (a girl) is the only sane person in Wonderland, and ultimately uses her common sense to prevail against that increasingly nightmarish world, whereas Max and Moritz (boys) seem determined to wreak havoc on a trusting, law-abiding society through a series of increasingly outrageous pranks which ultimately lead to their downfall. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.131.113.119 (talk • contribs) 10:13, April 19, 2004 (UTC)

I moved this stuff to the talk page. This needs references. It looks like original research otherwise. And there should be some reason why, of all things, Max und Moritz should be compared to Alice in Wonderland.--345Kai 17:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree with the judgement of Max and Moritz made by 83.131.113.119. If you read the original text in German you will get a better understanding of the intention of Wilhelm Busch.

“ Die, anstatt durch weise Lehren
Sich zum Guten zu bekehren,
Oftmals noch darüber lachten
Und sich heimlich lustig machten.
ja, zur Übeltätigkeit,
Ja, dazu ist man bereit!
Menschen necken, Tiere quälen,
Äpfel, Birnen, Zwetschgen stehlen,
Das ist freilich angenehmer
Und dazu auch viel bequemer,
Als in Kirche oder Schule
Festzusitzen auf dem Stuhle.”

Wilhelm Busch: Max und Moritz

It is also interesting to notice that Wilhelm Busch was educated by his uncle who was a priest and that the mill in the story existed also in reality. See de:Wilhelm Busch#Leben --mms 00:11, Januar 17, 2005 (UTC)