Talk:Max Born

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[edit] Lutheran - Quaker?

Max Born converted to Lutheranism at some point in his youth; much later, if I am not mistaken, he joined the Quakers, together with his wife, Hedi. Neither fact matters much as far as his science is concerned, though I suppose the latter may be seen as having something to do with his pacifist activities in the postwar period. In any case, it is hard to see the use of classifying him emphatically as Jewish; as far as I know, he was raised in an assimilated family, and Judaism most likely tells us less about his personality and beliefs than either of the faiths he chose. His "race" in Nazi eyes is relevant in so far as it was one of his reasons for emigrating; other than that, it is hard to see what useful purpose the labelling serves. 132.204.53.60 22:08, 16 April 2006

Unfortunately, his Jewish background is relevant. In 1933, after the Nazis came to power, all scientists with a Jewish background were forced out of their job, and a large number of them left the country. The same is true for Lise Meitner who had also converted to become a Lutheran. The importance of it is that Germany at that point in time lost a lot of its top scientists, and with that its leading position in the area of science and technology. The US took over as leader in science and technology, and kept that position to this very day. It was one of the factors that transformed the US from the secondary power it was before WWII to the superpower it is today, if not the most important one. JdH 08:22, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
My point precisely. That he was a refugee from Nazi Germany is relevant; that one of the reasons for his emigration was his racial status in Nazi eyes may be of interest. Neither fact allows us to presume what he was in his own eyes. See the categories at the bottom of the page.
Incidentally, a fair number of scientists emigrated from Germany for purely political reasons. It is hard to see how the *reason* for somebody's emigration from Germany to the US (or the UK) could be of great importance to his contribution to science in the US (or the UK). It is the fact of emigration itself that mattered. 132.204.53.75 21:37, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A message from Max Born's progeny

Max Born is my great grandfather, olivia NJ is my aunt, i am from australia & a musician & photographer like his daughter Irene Newton -John. this web site has opened my eyes to many of my grandfathers talents, I have many letters from the 30's - 50 between him & Einstien thats all. Brett goldsith

I moved this comment of 12:33, 6 July 2006 from 203.214.75.172 to here. Brett, thank you for your remark, that is very nice. What I was wondering is: would you and your family consider to make copies of those letters and other historical documents available to the Niels Bohr Library or other approppriate institution to make them accessible to historians? JdH 12:55, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stable version now

Let's begin the discussion per the protocol. --Ancheta Wis 05:03, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Let's not. There is no protocol, there is only a nowhere-near-consensus proposal. Cynical 20:34, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Ancheta Wis does not consider this article stable, having just deleted a category (although I reverted - see below).--Poetlister 16:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
The purpose of a [stable tag] is to lessen work, not to stop progress. According to Brion Vibber at Wikimania 2006 (day two), a stable tag will simply mark a version. In that case, someone who is unfamiliar with the subject can view a tagged version with the understanding that some agency has vouched for the content.
My entire motivation, as noted by Ghosh at Wikimania, is that Wikipedia progresses by the action of individuals. Consensus comes after this.
When I chose this article as a prototype for the stable version process, it was because the article is reasonably non-controversial and complete enough that even a descendant of Max Born found it useful.
In other words, the article was a low-risk candidate. We need to work out this process here or elsewhere. Jimbo has stated that we really ought to work this out in the next twelve months. --Ancheta Wis 09:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Restored cat:Jewish scientist

There is not the slightest doubt tHat Born was born Jewish (inevitable pun); there are plenty of references to that effect. He was therefore a Jewish scientist. The fact that he ceased to practise is irrelevant; so did Einstein.--Poetlister 16:55, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I take an interest in this business of identity as I look Jewish though I am not I wonder if those Jews who ceaselessly 'reclaim' Jews ever realise they are doing exactly what Hitler and the Nazis did-and were the cause of Born leaving Germany in the first place People like Born were totally assimlilated into Germany.They had cut their religious connections,had proud German names,often didnt-like Freud ,have their children circumcised.Their language (which is considered to be responsible for structuring the brain) was German The education that made them and their cultural loves and entire outlook was German. And of course ,they fought and died bravely for their country Germany in World War One fighting the British and French There suddenly arose a party that believed that anyone tainted by a singe drop of 'Jewish blood' was stamped remorselessly as Jewish.Such people if sensible got out of Germany quickly.This Nazi period lasted merely twelve years -less than Mrs Thatchers Premiership Today its interesting that Jews now endlessly search out the Jewishness of anyone they think may be Jewish irrespective of the persons wishes or desires. YOU ARE A JEW! they scream -as fiercely as any fanatical Nazi. I am always surprised that modern Germany does not reclaim these Jewish scientists as their own.Born and Einstein were NOT Jewish scientists -they were patriotic loyal German loving GERMAN scientists-Einstein rushed back to become a professor at the Berlin Academy of Sciences in 1916-in the middle of WW1-when Germany was the most hated country in the world. I suppose German guilt over the Hitler years prevents this I doubt if Born -or Einstein- ever seriously considered themselves Jewish only patriotic Germans Indeed they probably regarded the Jewish religion as something middle eastern and primitive that they wanted nothing to do with. In fact -I would ask the question-is it possible for any Jew to stop being classed as Jewish?-or are they despite their protests branded forever by Jews as Jewish? .Now that IS racism!!! Incidentally can we get off this boring Nobel Prize stuff-Born will go down in history surely as being the grandfather of Olivia Newton John. Now thats really something-incidentaly one of the most beautiful desirable heavenly women in the world actually looks a bit like him-did she meet him?

P.S. I dont like Germans

[edit] Infobox

The following infobox has been removed from the page. Please discuss to reach consensus for its inclusion or removal.bunix 14:26, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Max Born
Max Born
Max Born
Born December 11, 1882
Breslau, Germany
Died January 5, 1970
Göttingen, Germany
Residence Germany, Britain
Nationality German- British
Fields Physics
Institutions University of Frankfurt-on-Main
University of Göttingen
University of Edinburgh
Alma mater University of Breslau
University of Göttingen
Doctoral advisor Carl Runge
Doctoral students Victor Frederick Weisskopf
Robert Oppenheimer
Lothar Wolfgang Nordheim
Herbert S. Green
Known for Foundations of quantum mechanics
Notable awards Nobel Prize for Physics (1954)
Religious stance Lutheran
Notes
His son is Gustav Victor Rudolf Born and his grandaughter is Olivia Newton-John.

[edit] Nobel Prize speculation appropriate?

The final sentence of the second paragraph under "Career" currently reads thusly: Based on this, one could say the Nobel Prize in Physics awarded to Heisenberg in 1932 should have been jointly awarded to Born.

This seems fairly subjective, really, and might be re-worded. As I am not intimately familiar with the details of this particular Nobel Prize and the extent of Born's contribution to the work, but a more neutral wording might be something along the lines of "Born's contributions were important in laying the foundation of Quantum Mechanics, for which Heisenberg won the 1932 Nobel Prize."

             -Paul Ganssle (added anonymously because I am not at home)
It is a reflection of the complexity and subtlety of the Nobel-level contribution. I have a reference on this from Born himself, I recall ( maybe Born-Einstein letters? ) but online is certainly more accessible than paper and I would have to dig this one up. I can see the page in my head, now to find it. On a related note, Walter Bothe's contribution on the AND gate came in 1954 as well. These both took about 25-30 years. And in 5 years, they were building AND gates in hardware. So it was timely for both of them. --Ancheta Wis 22:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


I don't doubt his contribution to the process, but it seems like speculating on whether or not he deserved a nobel prize which was given to someone doesn't seem very neutral. It seems like making a statement about the extent of his contribution to the work that earned a Nobel prize allows readers to draw their own conclusions without making a statement about the incompetence of the 1932 Nobel Prize comittee.
         --Paul Ganssle

[edit] Book - Principles of Optics

This article says that Principles of Optics is a translation of Born's German-language Optik, but in the preface to Principles of Optics Born and Wolf explicitly say that it is not a translation, but an entirely new book: "In consequence it was felt that a translation was hardly appropriate; instead a substantially new book was prepared..."

24.250.23.48 17:48, 20 June 2007 (UTC)Anonymous

[edit] 1943

Max Born seems to have had a mental break-down in about 1943. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 08:40, 18 April 2008 (UTC)