Talk:Maundy Thursday
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page to become familiar with the guidelines. | ||
| Start | This article has been rated as Start-class on the quality scale. | ||
| Mid | This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale. | ||
|
Assessment comments
|
|||
 |
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Holidays, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Holiday-related topics. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can see a list of objectives or join the project. | |
| Start | This article has been rated as Start-Class on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.) |
|
 |
This page is within the scope of WikiProject Oriental Orthodoxy, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on the Oriental Orthodox Church on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. | |
| Start | This article has been rated as Start-Class on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.) |
|
Contents |
[edit] Article Name
What was the rationale for moving this page? Outside of the Roman Catholic Church, the English-speaking world universally calls this day "Maundy Thursday".Rockhopper10r 18:22, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
The Article Should be called Holy Thursday or a least be called a name that is more common to people. With all the Christian churches it's confusing. In the Catholic Church we call it Holy Thursday.
- In nearly every other Western Christian Church the name for the day is "Maundy Thursday". It is the traditional name for the day in the English language. "Holy Thursday" has also been used as a name for Ascension Day. "Maundy Thursday" is unique to the Thursday during Holy Week. We could argue this point forever, but I think keeping the article at Maundy Thursday is most appropriate. Rockhopper10r 16:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Google reports the following numbers of hits:
- holy: about 237,000,000
- holy thursday: about 611,000
- maundy: about 1,010,000
- maundy thursday: about 847,000
My point is that "holy" is a very common word, whereas "maundy" is not: less than 0.3% of "holy" hits are for "holy thursday", whereas almost 84% of "maundy" hits are for "maundy thursday". Given the Naming conventions:
Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.
It seems to me that "maundy thursday" would be slightly easier to recognize and much less likely to be ambiguous, so I agree with Rockhopper10r that the article should stay at Maundy Thursday. --JBeck 02:55, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with this assessment. Even though we call it "Holy Thursday" in the vernacular in the Philippines, when we refer to it in English, it is almost always "Maundy Thursday". RashBold Talk 12:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Hm, not sure what to think on this one. I'd never heard the word "Maundy" before in my life, but then I come from a very Catholic part of the US. The Catholic Encyclopedia lists it as Maundy Thursday rather than Holy Thursday, so I'm inclined to think that Maundy should be the main article here. Telonius 19:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Maundy Thursday is the traditional name for 'holy thursday' I actualy hadn't heard of it called 'holy thursday' before this year. I Think the article should be called "Maundy Thursday (Holy Thursday)" because of this discrepency.
The "Maundy/Holy" thing does not work. It just leads to more confusion. Please revert to "Maundy Thursday". We seem to have reached consensus on that one. Thank you. Rockhopper10r 17:17, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
It should be called Holy Thursday. I am Greek Orthodox and I have never heard of "Maundy" in my life. If its that much of a big deal then make two pages. Maundy is not the traditional name either. If people didn't know, NOTHING in the orthodox church ever changes. The doctrines have been the same for 2000 years. It should be noted that the Catholic church split from it so it could change. Now Catholics dont even fast meat or dairy for the 40 days of lent. My friend who is Catholic once told me she was fasting from gum, wow what a feat! And the Orthodox Church calls it Holy Thursday so anything else would just be wrong!
[edit] Further comment on Article Name
Maundy Thursday is the traditional English term for the day, used by both Anglicans and Catholics prior to the liturgical reforms of Vatican II. Since Vatican II the Catholic Church refers to the day as Holy Thursday as maundy is now an archaic term with no use or meaning outside of this singular usage. The average English speaker could not define the word maundy. Holy Thursday is now the term used in most of the liturgical churches of the West, with the exception of the Anglicans who use Maundy in England and other countries but to a much lesser degree in North America. The majority of Western Christians clearly use Holy Thursday in place of Maundy Thursday; therefore, I propose that the article move to Holy Thursday and remain there. Vaquero100 23:49, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
- "Maundy Thursday" was never the traditional English term for the day in Ireland. I strongly doubt that it was ever the traditional English term among Catholics in the United States of America. Vaquero is probably too young to remember clearly. At my age, I do remember clearly that, at least in Ireland, "Maundy Thursday" always sounded particularly English - I speak of the country, not the language. Though, where I am now, I am unable to check, I think I saw that the edition for England of the present English translation of the Roman Missal has "Maundy Thursday". But certainly the printings for other countries have "Holy Thursday", surely a sign that "Holy Thursday" was the traditional term among Catholics in those countries even before the 1970s. Is it really believable that the translators took it upon themselves to change the English term for the day? In short, the Second Vatican Council has nothing to do with the question. Lima 04:26, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Lima, you are correct. I am too young to remember clearly. I simply recall that on American (not specifically religious) calendars which used to have more Christian religious holidays marked on them routinely read Maunday Thursday at least in the early 1970's. Since then, in the US anyway, all references to that name have virtually vanished except in Anglican settings. Even in many ECUSA settings, especially the more liberal onces, Holy Thursday is the common name.
My sense that it was a matter of traditional language was based on the Catholic Encyclopedia preference for Maundy. However, this may well be explained if the CE of 1913 was originally published in England. I have no knowledge of its editorial/publishing history.
Still, it is true that Catholics in the US presently do not use the term Maunday. Whether that is a matter of the liturgical reform or simply a preference for the Roman over the Anglican usage, I admit I am not clear.
Nevertheless, whether it is an Anglican matter or liturgical reform matter, it strikes me that Maunday is the minority use. Catholics in the USA alone now nearly equal the membership of all Anglicans on the globe. Why an Anglican terminology should dominate WP, I cannot imagine. English is no longer the province of England alone nor the C of E.
Lima, I might think you and I would agree on this. Vaquero100 14:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
This has been argued back and forth. No one is ever going to be totally satisfied; however, "Maundy Thursday" is less ambiguous in that it distinctively refers to the Thursday in Holy Week. The word "Maundy" precedes only the words "Thursday" and the derivative "money". See above for the reasoning.Rockhopper10r 15:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
The issue is not the relative ambiguity of Maundy vs. Holy, but rather Maundy Thursday vs. Holy Thursday. Both are equally unambiguous. There is no other Holy Thursday. So, the question is whether the small minority of English speakers in England and the Anglican Communion has some kind of monopoly on the English language. I am neither English nor Anglican. This is true for the majority of English speakers. Maundy is archaic and obscure at best. Vaquero100 02:15, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Vaquero has a very good, well-put point. Lima 04:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Please see the above discussion. We've been through this before.Rockhopper10r 05:03, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
"Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature" (Wikipedia quotation by Rockhopper). Which name, "Holy Thursday" or "Maundy Thursday", would the majority of English speakers (except, of course, in England) write in the "search" box? Neither name is at all ambiguous. To me, "the above discussion" seems far from conclusive. Lima 07:46, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Rockhopper, having read your userpage, your self-professed preference for Commonwealth English and your high church Episcopalian commitments does not foster much confidence in your capacity for unbiased opinion. While I find a Texan who prefers the Queen's English truly a fascinating phenomenon this profile exhibits a proclivity for fanciful and unrealistic thinking. Maundy may be quaint and you may be on a campaign to save it, but nevertheless Angles no longer control the course of the English language. Now the Dutch have perfect control over their language because no one else speaks it. For better or worse, English now has a life of its own and Maundy, whatever it means, is steadily becoming an irrelevant word. Vaquero100 02:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Just because the Catholic and Anglican Churches call it Maundy, doesn't mean that all other christian churches do. If im correct, the Anglican church was once Catholic, so this is just one churches name. Besides a Catholic website even refers to it as Holy Thursday http://www.catholic.org/clife/lent/thurs.php
[edit] Cleanup tag
I removed the cleanup tag that was put on the article back in March. I don't know why it was tagged as needing a cleanup, other than the debate between Holy and Maundy Thursday. (Personally, I don't think it's that big of a deal, since Holy redirects to Maundy.) If anyone knows what else needs cleanup, it should probably be mentioned here. --Elkman - (talk) 05:09, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Blake
Shouldn't this article mention Blake's 2 poems named 'Holy Thursday' in the Songs of Innocence and Experience? They are highly relevant, imo. - Elin
[edit] Quantity of Maundy money
Seems to me that this page conflicts with Maundy money#Availability of the coins in that this page says each recipient receives "one coin for every year of the Sovereign's reign" whereas the other page says "people were given Maundy money consisting of silver pennies totalling, in pence, the current age of the monarch." I'll look it up somewhere, eventually, unless anyone has a good source to hand. --AndrewHowse 20:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
- A potential source. Royal Mint website —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AndrewHowse (talk • contribs) 21:16, 12 March 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Gründonnerstag
There is a vive fight for the meaning of German "Gründonnerstag" as the most popular name for Great/Holy Thursday or Maundy Thursday. Is it useful to link to the DE-Wikipedia-page which explains more details of the ethymology? I would not like to see here any comments like "Gründonnerstag means either 'mourning Thursday' from Middle High German greinen (to weep) or ..." where there seems to be more than one objective mistake: "greinen" looks to me like a modern German word (unless I get a source for verification) - the middle high german should be "grinan", "gronan" or something like that; and I don't think that the word's root has the basic meaning "weep" even if modern "greinen" (mourn, wail) sounds close to "weinen" (weep). Not to mention that the development of the word is not clear and may already base on old high german rather than middle high german. But I am not a linguist. FZiegler 13:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Are you saying that the origination of the English word 'maundy' can be linked to the German word 'Gründonnerstag' and, as such, the link you're proposing would be beneficial? Sorry, but I'm unclear on the meaning of the above post and I speak no German at all so the link would be lost on me completely. CanadianMist 15:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Passover Eve?
Is there any connection with this date and the Eve of Passover? I had heard that the last supper was actually the Passover Seder and that the wine and wafer were the obligatory cups of wine and matzah. --Valley2city₪‽ 19:08, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, Christians believe that Jesus Christ gave these elements of the Seder meal a new meaning. As a result, Christians practice Holy Communion. This year, the Jewish Passover begins on Tuesday, the 3rd of April and will continue for 7 days until Monday, the 9th of April. Maundy Thursday, the commemoration of the Last Supper and the night Holy Communion was instituted, falls on April 5 this year. This link will explain your inquiry in further detail. I hope this helps! Thanks, AnupamTalk 19:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
The Eastern Orthodox Church has different days for Easter than other Christian churches most years because of the Jewish Passover.
[edit] Usual Celebration
I think the article would be improved by a reference to the Catholic practice of having the "Chrism Mass" on this day, perhaps with a brief reference (if known) as to how this came about. (As an aside: I would vote for "Holy Thursday" for the article name as well. "Maundy" is an obscure English word; it is sufficient to redirect a "Maundy Thursday" search to a "Holy Thursday" article.) MrArticleOne (talk) 00:10, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- A reference to the 'Roman' Catholic practice of the Chrism Mass would be a good idea. I disagree with 'Holy Thursday' as a name for the article - the traditional name in English is Maundy Thursday. Let's not dumb down the English language for Americans with limited vocabularies. InfernoXV (talk) 10:56, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- I think there is a difference between "dumbing down" and obscurantism; preserving "Maundy" to me rings of the latter. I find (for whatever reason) that the British English speakers who contribute to the project often have an extremely heightened concern over a perceived threat of American linguistic ignorance; see, for example, the Talk page for The Open Championship. MrArticleOne (talk) 14:06, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
