User talk:Matia.gr/Archive 2

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Contents

[edit] REX

[edit] REX part 1

The following personal message is in Greek for various reasons of my own. Because of my well known hostility to messages on the English Wikipedia being in a foreign language, a translation is available on request.

MATIA, Θα ήθελα να παραπονεθώ! Συνέχεια με κατηγορείς, λέγοντας ότι προκαλώ. Αυτό δεν είναι αλήθεια. Εγώ προσπαθώ να βελτιώσω τα λήμματα του Wikipedia και πάντα αιτιολογώ τα edits μου. Συζητήσαμε χθές για το αν οι Αρβανίτες καταλαβαίνουν τους Τόσκηδες και τους Γκέκηδες και τα αντίστροφα. Έγω έκανα μερικά edits που δεν έπρεπε, μου εξήγησες ότι ήταν λάθος και τα διόρθωσα. Σήμερα έκανα edit λέγοντας τα Αρανίτικα είναι μια μορφή της Τόσκικης διαλέκτου αποδεικνύοντας το και εσύ μου λες ότι προκαλώ. Έπειτα στο Talk Page της Δημοκρατίας της Μακεδονίας εξηγώ γιατί πιστεύω ότι ΠΓΔΜ δεν είναι η επίσημη ονομασία αυτής της χώρας και μου λες ότι προκαλώ. Είναι αυτό δίκαιο; REX 11:37, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

REX, είναι κάτι που δεν έκανες μόνο μία φορά. Και θα ήθελα πολύ να μην είναι αλήθεια το ότι τα γράφεις για να προκαλείς, αλλά δεν μπορώ να ξέρω ούτε αν το κάνεις επίτηδες, ούτε όχι. Στη σελίδα για την ονομασία έχει μια εκτενή ανάλυση για την έννοια ονομάζεται επίσημα και τη σημαίνει ΟΗΕ, κάμποσες παραγράφους πιο πάνω απ' τα σημερινά μας σχόλια. Ο ΟΗΕ χρησιμοποιεί σε όλα τα έγγραφα του σαν ορολογία το φ.υ.ρ.ο.μ. Αφενός αυτά τα έγγραφα είναι όλα επίσημα και θεωρώ ότι είναι σαφές αυτή η ονομασία έχει υιοθετηθεί και επιλεγχθεί για επίσημη χρήση. Αυτό είναι το οφίσιαλ που γράφαμε και ξαναγράφαμε. Η φράση που πήγες και άλλαξες στους Αρβανίτες ήταν η ίδια φράση που δεν πείραξες χτες όταν έγγραφες για τους Γκέγκηδες (αν το γράφω λάθος συγνώμη). Έχω άδικο να αναρωτιέμαι γιατί το κάνεις και ειδικά όταν μου λες ξανά ότι για μένα δήθεν καλή θέληση σημαίνει να συμφωνούν οι άλλοι με όσα λες. Πώς να πιστέψω ότι δεν τα κάνεις επίτηδες; Τις συνεισφορές μου μπορείς, και σε προτρέπω, να τις ελέγξεις μία προς μία. Δε θα βρεις μια φορά να έχω γράψει κάτι σε άρθρο που είτε είναι αμφισβητίσιμο είτε δεν έχει συζητηθεί εκτενώς στην αντίστοιχη σελίδα. Θέλω πολύ να πιστέψω ότι καμιά φορά βγάζεις βιαστικά συμπεράσματα και πως δεν το κάνεις επίτηδες. Βοήθησέ με με τις πράξεις σου, ειλικρινά θέλω να πιστέψω και θέλω να συνεργαστούμε για να προχωρήσει αυτή η εγκυκλοπαίδεια. Σ' ευχαριστώ. MATIA 12:53, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

REX, this is something that you did more than once. I would really like to be wrong that you write these to provoke, but I can't tell or know if you are doing it on purpose, or not. In the page about the name (dispute) there is a long analysis of the term officialy named and what is the meaning of UN, few paragraphs beyond our today comments. UN uses in all UN documents the term f.y.r.o.m. On the one hand all the documents are official and I believe it is clarified that this naming term has been adopted and chosen for official use. This is the official that has been long discussed. The phrase you changed in Arvanites is the same phrase you didn't altered yesterday, when you wrote about the Ghegs (I apologise if I have a spelling mistake). Am I wrong to wonder why are you doing it nd especially when you say again the I, supposedly, mean good will mean agreeing with everything you say. How can I believe that you are not doing these on purpose? You can check my contributions, and I encourage you to do so, one by one. You won't find me writing something disputable in an article and you won't find me writing something that wasn't discussed in long, before in the talk page. I would really want to believe that you are not doing it on purpose. Help me with your acts, I sincerely want to believe (you) and I want to co-operate with you to improve this encyclopedia. Thank you. 12:53, 3 September 2005 translated MATIA 22:48, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Δεν διαφωνώ μαζί σου σε αυτό. Ο ΟΗΕ και τα περισσότερα κράτη του κόσμου έχουν αναγνωρίσει επίσημα εκείνο το κράτος ως ΠΓΔΜ. Σε εκείνη την εκτενή ανάλυση που λες, λένε ότι υπάρχει νόμος του ΟΗΕ (UN law) που δέκτηκε το κράτος των Σλαβομακεδόνων και κάνει το όνομα 'Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας' παράνομο και το όνομα ΠΓΔΜ την επίσημη ονομασία αυτού του κράτους. Αυτό δεν είναι αλήθεια (μη νομίζεις, ούτε εμένα μ' αρέσει να ονομάζεται Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας, είναι παραπλανητικό), συμφώνησαν να γίνει μέλος του ΟΗΕ χρησιμοποιώντας για μερικούς διεθνής σκοπούς μόνο (πρωτόκολλα, συνθήκες κλπ) το όνομα ΠΓΔΜ. Δεν συμφώνησαν να αλλάξει το όνομα του κράτους. Αυτό δεν κάνει το όνομα ΔΜ παράνομο. Αν είχαν συμφωνήσει σε αυτό, τότε η μακεδονική κυβέρνηση δε θα το χρησιμοποιούσε ως επίσημο. Εγώ λέω να κάνουμε το εξής: να κανουπε αυτό που έκαναν στο άρθρο Ισραήλ, δηλαδή να χρησιμοποιήσουμε το όνομα που ορίζει το σύνταγμα του κράτους αλλά να αναφέρουμε ότι ο ΟΗΕ το αναγνωρίζει ως ΠΓΔΜ. Μη ξεχνάς, όπως έχω ξαναπεί, ο ΟΗΕ δεν είναι World government. REX 14:08, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Πρόσεξε στο άρθρο έλεγε όνομα τάδε, επίσημα ονομάζετε δείνα. Το τάδε είναι το συνταγματικό όνομα-αυτοπροσδιορισμός, και το δεύτερο το όνομα που χρησιμοποιείται διεθνώς, ΟΗΕ, IMF και όλοι οι υπόλοιποι οργανισμοί, στα επίσημα έγγραφα. Όσο για απαγόρευση του σκέτου όρου πρέπει να ψάξεις τις αποφάσεις του ΟΗΕ 94-97 κι όχι 92-93. MATIA 14:46, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Please notice that in the article, the previous phrasing was name is this... officialy named that. This is the constitutional name-selfidentifying, and that is the internationally used name, UN, IMF and the rest organizations, on (their) official documents. About the (agreement on) illegalizing the plain term you should search the UN resolutions and agreements between 94-97, not in 92-93. 14:46, 3 September 2005 translated MATIA 22:48, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Μήπως θα ήταν καλύτερα να μην αναφέρουμε τη λέξη 'επίσημο' και να πούμε απλώς: Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας είναι το συνταγματικό όνομα αλλά ο ΟΗΕ την ονομάζει ΠΓΔΜ η κάτι παρόμοιο; REX 15:38, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] REX part 2

MATIA, On the talk page of Arvanites I wasn't referring to yoy as the far-right extremist, but Theathenae, because he keeps calling me (directly mind you, I just implied it) an Albanian extremist. I wish he wouldn't. I'm not even Albanian. Also I wasn't refferint to the ethnologue.com linguists either. Why would I. They themselves have at the heading of the page Arvanitika, Albanian (haven't you wondered why, given that you believe that Arvanitic is not a variant of Albanian, but a seperate language altgether?). Also, you have said that I provoke. That is a totally unjustified claim intended to destroy my credibility. You should stop it. Such tricks should not be used. Even if it were true, it is not your place to dicipline Wikipedians. REX 21:55, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

REX I 'm sick and tired of your false accusations. My contributions are here, and anyone including you can check them. If I ever did anything wrong, or even if I ever did any of those things you imply or say, I am here and I am responsible of my acts. I never played any kind of tricks. What you have proven repeatedly the last two days is that you fall into vicious circles. I don't know why you can't help doing it.
Other than that I'm wondering why you, after our last discussions, are bringing back the provoke thing. Should I translate my previous answer to English so that everyone can read our discussion? I really don't understand why you act this way.
I've never tried to discipline anyone, and I wouldn't try it because I can't do it. I 've shown you respect, despite your acts were many times unjustified. You falsely accuse me of playing tricks. MATIA 22:31, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, you may have not realised that you were doing it, but you accused me of proviking out of bad faith, didn't you. All I had done was make some entirely justifiable statements which you didn't agree with. You didn't however tick off Theathenae for always proviking me on the Talk:Arvanites page. That was clearly bad faith, he wasn't presenting any arguments he was just making statements such as As you can see, your [REX's] narrow-minded far-right Albanian fanaticism has no support on this talk page and Perhaps because he [REX] too is a far-right Albanian nationalist . There was no proof to those statements, I had even done something incompatable with Albanian nationalism. It is curious that you didn't tick him off. I never made such proviking statements, I just raised some questions. Perhaps because he was supporting YOUR arguments. Is that the good faith that you claim to have? I have never made unjustifiable acts as you claim. Everything I did can be justified. Don't forget that it takes TWO parties to make vicious circles. I want this thing over with as much as you. You just don't have any sources to support your arguments. I on the other hand do:

  • Encarta refers to Arvanitic as a variety of Albanian
  • Ethnologue includes Albanian in the names of the language (at the heading Arvanitika, Albanian)
  • Your statement that ethnologue calls Arvanitic a language in its own right can be questioned as: a) Its categrisation methods into languages and dialects have been criticised before (check the entry and you will see), b) Assuming that they are right in this case (Arvanitic is indeed a language) I am not saying that Arvanitic is not a language (I even changed its name from Arvanitic to Arvanitic language and that is how it should remain) if you check the meaning of the word variety you will see that in can mean a language in its own right (which will have a standard version), so by using that word we are not excluding the possibility that it is indeed a separate language. Unfortunately, that has not been officially established so you can't say with certainty if it is a language or a dialect (check entry), then we would know what to do.

Therefore the only thing to do is to use the phrasing that professional scholars have themselves used, unless of course you think that you know better than them. The fact that you find this phrasing so unacceptable (in my opinion) look politically motivated and that raises questions about your credibility. The above argument is not a vicious circle as you falsly claim in conjunction with my other observations (all of which could be innocent oversights, I make plenty. Nobody is perfect) would make people doubt your soundness. Anyway, let's just get this thing over with. I have seen that you have indeed mabe meaningful contributions to WP articles and I like to believe that I do too. Then we can move on to other articles. All of this message of which some parts are quite harsh is of the best intentions. REX 23:19, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

You are falling into vicious circles. MATIA 08:43, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

That is another of your tricks isn't it (you claim not to use any). I have a legitimate argument above, there are no defects. REX 08:56, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I wrote you on Talk:Arvanites and/or Talk:Arvanitic language that both phrases are correct and I wrote you why the one is better than the other. At some point you seemed to agree and then you started all over again. I can't go through all these, again.
You attacked me with phrases like MATIA, does 'good will' mean agreeing with everything you say?, You have to prove what you say, not let your POV into the article and expect us to accept it because it is what you want (while I was quoting ethnologue), you accuse me of playing tricks etc.
I'm only trying to protect myself from your attacks.
You are falling into vicious circles and this has nothing to do with Straw man arguments. You are falling into loops, your questions have been answered and then you start all over again. This is meaningless.
MATIA 09:01, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

If saying Arvanitic is a variety of Tosk is so wrong, why then does Encarta use it? Encarta is edited by professional scholars. Are you expecting us to accept that you know better than them. Your definition is entirely without precedent and can easilly be challenged by anyone, while mine is quoted by professionals. REX 09:29, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Your questions have been answered before. If you can't understand the answers, what can I do? Aren't the linguists in Ethnologue professionals? Should I say that your last comment is a strawman argument? Please read again the corresponding talk pages. MATIA 09:36, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

i can also use ethnologue: At the heading it says Albanian, Arvanitika a language of Greece. You quote the language but that has already been quoted in the title Arvanitic language. What is the Albanian for? REX 09:39, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I can't help you. MATIA 09:41, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Of course you can't. You can't answer that can you.

  • Ethnologue refers to Albanian, Arvanitika a language of Greece.
  • Encarta refers to Arvanitic as a variety of Tosk.

See, how can you now claim that Arvanitic is a language in its own right. We can use the phrasing I proposed and the same phrasing is used by professionals. You don't know better than them. This is not a vicious circle is it. There are no defects. Just in case you are considering saying that Ethnologue refers to Arvanitic as a language please check Linguistics and Dialect. REX 09:48, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Please stop writing on my talk page about these stuff.
I told you before that I can't help you. MATIA 09:52, 5 September 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Request

MATIA, I plead with you with all the earnestness possible to observe Wikipedia policy. You have no references to support your explosive claims. You have repeatedly stated that there is evidence on Talk:Arvanites and Talk:Arvanitic language. That is a lie. There is no conclusive evidence there that even implies that Arvanitic is a language in its own right. However, I do have an open mind. Because I might have overlooked something on those pages, please copy and paste relevant phrases that prove that Arvanitic is a language in its own right on my Talk Page. If you succeed in proving that Arvanitic is a language in its own right I will refrain from insisting that Arvanitic is a dialect of Albanian (the UNESCO stance which you reject because it contradicts with your POV) and retract everything I have said about you (such as you promoting Greek extremism) and make a formal apology. If you can't prove this, I will have to insist on using the UNESCO phrasing because Wikipedia policy insists that you have to cite your sources. We simply cannot ignore what UNESCO says and say the exact opposite because you feel like it. I sincerely hope that we can cooperate. If you really do have good faith, I trust that you will. REX 11:13, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I guess I'll provide you the sources and I'll gain a (second) apology. Take care. MATIA 11:15, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

You'll gain it when you've proved that you do have sources. I am a responisble Wikipedian and I am prepared when I am wrong to aknowledge that I am wrong and apologise. REX 11:37, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Nothing yet? REX 12:37, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Patience and politeness are two virtues. Perhaps you should exercise them. MATIA 13:47, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

MATIA, I hope you know that if you cannot find sources and yet proceed by implementing your POV onto the article you will be violating Wikipedia policies Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability. If you find no credible sources I suggest that you withdraw while there is still time. REX 21:18, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Have you checked my proposal on Talk:Arvanites#Fresh_Proposal? REX 14:04, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

You are too hasty. I do suggest to exercise your politeness when you visit my talk page, it'll be an interesting change. I am an honest man and I keep my promises. I told you that I will provide you with sources, and I will. I didn't tell you that I'll give you sources in 5 minutes, or hours. When I'm ready I'll let you know. I'm gonna take a look now at your proposal and I'll probably leave my comment on Talk:Arvanites. MATIA 22:03, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] rex part 4

Oh MATIA, this is your tactic. Abusing the system. Well both of us can play this game. REX 20:10, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] a suggestion to REX

Συγκρατήσου, εκτίθεσαι με τις πράξεις σου.

I just saw you voted to delete the template about the name dispute.
I had read before, here on WP, that Encarta refers to the citizens of fYROM as Macedonians Slavs. Where's your encarta zeal?
About 3 or 4 hours before voting, today, you accussed me that I have double standards. I can't help wondering if you are the one who has double standards.

I've asked for protection of Arvanitic language, and you said that you won't change that article. Then you go and vandalize the article about Albanian language. Please lad, think before you act. You offended Arvanites, you offended yourself and now you also offend Tosks and Ghegs with that attitude.
I hope you will correct your errors. MATIA 21:04, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

MATIA, that was not vandalism on Albanian language because that edit was backed by reliable sources. As for my vote on the template deletion, I reserve my right to vote whatever I wish. You can't lay down the law by telling me what to vote. Also I will have to ask you to withdraw from forcing your POV on Arvanites. You have yet to cite sources. You will gain the apology you want when you cite sources. You say You offended Arvanites, you offended yourself and now you also offend Tosks and Ghegs with that attitude. That is not your place to say. I implement facts with reliable sources because unlike you, I cite my sources. You cannot say thet the edit on Albanian language was unjustafiable solely because it conflicts with your POV (I cited sources to support my edits on that page. UNESCO, Encarta and Ethnologue). REX 21:19, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

You proved with your vote that you have double standards, or as you would say if you were me: read the Encarta. You can do what you want, vote whatever you want - I never told you what to vote, you can even go in public naked.
Every one is responsible for his actions, that includes me and you.
If you do have Arvanites in you family, they can verify that your actions have offended them too, just ask them. I've read UNESCO's red book, it calls it Arvanitika language. I told you I will bring you many sources, I have gathered some and I'll get more in the next days. As for your formal apology, that you said you would make when I bring the sources, forget it I don't mind at all. You can apologise to your family, after you learn who were the Arvanites. Take care. MATIA 21:43, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

MATIA,
I would like to complain about your behaviour. It is now obvious that you have a concerted agenda to promote your Greek POV on Wikipedia. This can be demonstrated by your involvement in articles such as:

In all of these cases you are promoting what could be perceived as the Greek POV sometimes at the expense of NPOV. This is especially true in the case of Arvanites. It has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that Arvanitic is a dialect of Tosk Albanian. Are you saying that UNESCO is wrong in referring to Arvanitic as a diaspora dialect of Tosk Albanian; that Ethnologue is wrong in referring to Arvanitic as Arvanitika Albanian; and that Encarta is wrong in referring to Arvanitic as a variant of Tosk? You can’t, because these are facts. Why do you object to my proposal so much? Everything that is said in it is true and yet you choose to reject it. If you have even an molecule of good faith you will tell me why you find my proposal so unacceptable. I really want to know. If you don’t tell me, I won’t know what to change so you will accept it and then we can end this tiresome discussion. You have to realise that by rejecting my sources above it will look like we are violating WP policies Wikipedia:NPOV, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability. This is something I will not allow myself to be seen doing.

Also, in the case of me voting in favour of the deletion of the template, you are unfair. I voted in favour of its deletion because I believe that it is unnecessary. That has absolutely nothing to do with what is said on Macedonian Slavs. I happen to believe that these people should be called Macedonian Slavs rather than just Macedonians because the latter is very misleading, unlike the former. Here in England most people do in fact call them Macedonian Slavs on many occasions. As for Encarta saying anythin I didn't know that, I never checked. Anyway, I believe that you were complaining because I didn’t vote the same way that you did. At least 16 people voted in favour of deletion. Would my vote have made any difference?

I hope that you will co-operate with me so that we can end our dispute.

Your friend,

REX, post delivered on 22:52, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

You can do what you want, vote whatever you want - I never told you what to vote, you can even go in public naked.
Every one is responsible for his actions, that includes me and you.

Been there, read that?

I don't care about your vote, it just proves your double standards.

If you don't have something useful to say, don't say it in my talk page.
If you don't understood what I wrote, go ahead and read it again.
My Arvanites friends tell me I have besha (μπέσα), you know the meaning of the word?
And finaly, if you don't know a thing about Arvanites, wait for my sources.

I believe all these are very simple and youll understand them easily. Take care.
 MATIA 06:20, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

You have yet to tell me why you are rejecting my proposal. And if you saythat I have double standards, I guess that that makes two of us. REX 09:23, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hey

I'm back. Feel free to share your thoughts. Thank you for your kind words on my artwork. --FlavrSavr 14:29, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Republic of Macedonia related articles

Will you please justify your edit on the relevant talk page? Thanks. MATIA 15:46, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

My edit summary explained it. You reverted something as "vandalism" that was not vandalism but a content dispute. I restored the previous version because it was a good-faith edit, but I take no sides in the underlying content dispute. Also, please do not mark edits as minor when they are not. Thank you. Jonathunder 17:13, 2005 September 12 (UTC)

[edit] thanks Jonathunder

Thanks for you answer. The fact that they used the term is true. Check the edit's history and the talk pages. You may also find interesting some notes on the Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conflict#some_thoughts. MATIA 17:28, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Libel

MATIA, I suggest you read Slander and libel as well as Malice (legal term). I never slandered you as a right-wing as you say, I just said I detect right-wing politics (or something like that). I have never called YOU a right-wing. For all you know I could have been referring to someone else. Also, personal attacks are in reference to the person, not content (see Wikipedia:No personal attacks). You should have considered that before making the accusation. That accusation is entirely unjustified. Also, you should know that I don't appreciate wiki-stalking. REX 17:22, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] enough is enough

Are you aware of the greek proverb Τα λόγια σου τα χόρτασα και το ψωμί σου φάτο; (translation: I'm fed up with your words, eat your bread). I'm fed up with your words, calumnies, excuses, everything and I don't want anything from you (keep your bread as the proverb says for yourself, I don't want it). I told you that all the evidence needed for the complaint against you can be found on your contributions, you tell me it is wiki-stalking. I can't even laugh with your distortions of the truth, they are pathetic. MATIA 17:37, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

What is important that the personal attacks which you mention NEVER occured. Perhaps you should find out what a personal attack is. Nothing I ever did qualifies as a personal attack. You say that proof is on the talk pages. That is a lie. You are trying to convince people that there is something on the talk pages while in reality there isn't. I bet that you cannot produce even one example of my many calumnies as you call them! REX 17:44, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I suggest you stop exposing yourself, the kids are yelling: The king is naked! MATIA 17:51, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
You cannot provide examples of personal attacks can you? That is because they don't exist. If you provide one of my quotes which qualifies as a personal attack I will acknowledge it and retract it with a full apology. You can't though. Because you are lying. No such quotes exist. Are you sure that your friends call you a besha. I believe that they should call you a gënjeshtar. I reflects reality! REX 18:01, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
REX is an Albanian Chronographos 19:42, 14 September 2005 (UTC) (a reminder for MATIA)

[edit] Wikipedia Policy

MATIA, I'm afraid that it is you who are POV pushing. I am trying to make the article reflect reality. UNESCO says what I want to say. There is no evidence to even suggest that you want the article to say. I suggest you read Wikipedia policy because you are in violation of it. If you persist, you shall be reported. REX 20:34, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Then you 'd better report me before I report you, vandal! MATIA 14:51, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

84.254.3.47's IP is from Greece. You can see his Contributions if you like. REX 15:53, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

I verify that this anonymous contribution is mine. I always sign my contributions and this was an accident - I don't edit anonymously but something went wrong with my signing in. I must also note that this is a dynamic IP. My proposal to User:REX to report me as vandal or whatever else he might find appropriate is valid. MATIA 11:29, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] npa

is it really a personal attack to call someone a troll after he repeatedly associated me with nazis? Is there a word that could describe that behaviour, the double standards and the circular logic, that is not a p.a.? MATIA 15:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

While it may be accurate, it doesn't help to get an encyclopedia written. If you respond to a troll in any way it takes the discussion away from the subject of the article and focusses attention on you and the other person. I'm asking you to avoid making things worse. Stick to discussing edits, and try to maintain civility, even in the face of attacks. I don't claim it's easy, but I assure you that it will have better results. --Tony SidawayTalk 15:31, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Re:beware the greeks

Hello, MATIA. I have already told you that I doubt about editing anything related about my ethnic group. I mean, when the very name of the ethnic group is in question here on WP, how can I be sure that nobody would change "Milcho Manchevski is a Macedonian director" into "Milcho Manchevski is a Macedonian Slav director."? So, by default, even those articles would be a matter of dispute.

I believe that all the evidence shows that the "Macedonian Slavs" as a term is not appopriate, and in breach of several Wikipedia policies, and this is unbelievably evident. (This is my POV, we can ofcourse, disagree on the relevant talk page). I beleive that a name of an ethnic group is a fundamental arch of the identity of a people, and neutral admins should approach this problem more seriously. Therefore, I will require a Mediation, if nobody disagrees.

As for the question why this term is offensive, I think I've answered you: because it is not our name. It is an anachronism that we feel is intended to present us as less than a nation, an amorphous mass of "Slavs" somehow alien to the region. There is a similar example with the Bosniaks, they have rejected the term Bosnian Muslims as an ethnic denominator. There's nothing offensive about the Muslim and the Slav term, they are offensive when they are used to describe a modern nation. It is really rude to label people against their will.

Also, it is rather absurd to speak about Slavs (as an ethnicity) in the 21st century. You cannot deny 14 centuries of mixing with the other inhabitants of the region (ancient and latercomers) - Ancient Macedonians, Greeks, Thracians, Turks, Aromanians...god knows what else, really. It was a natural thing for my nation to identify itself by the region it inhabited.

I don't deny the right of the other inhabitants of this region to identify themselves as Macedonians. I don't believe that an ethnic group called Macedonians is a threat to their identity. Similarly, the plethora of American and Canadian towns called Athens, do not deny the right of the inhabitants of the capital of Greece to identify themselves as Athenians. Of course, I think that in this point, the differences between our opinions differ much, but we can always Agree to Disagree.

As for Miskin's paragraph, I must admit that you have really pissed me off. Miskin barely hides his racist attitude towards my ethnic group. I basically have 3 problems with the paragraph:

  • It's a prescriptive paragraph, because it tells the reader what should or shoudln't find offensive in the text, completely ignoring the fact that most Macedonians find the term offensive
  • The statements of the politicians are clearly taken out of their context. Their ethnic self-identification is Macedonian, and not Macedonian Slav
  • It's sole purpose on the opening paragraph is to justify the use of the "Macedonian Slavs" term

I think that the statements should be included in a separate part or article dealing the naming controversy. This part or article would speak specifically about the Macedonian/Macedonian Slav naming controversy.

As for the double standards, etc... I really don't remember me making that accusations? I think that your support for Miskin's paragraph was a mistake, but I really don't remember accusing you of far-right nationalism? --FlavrSavr 01:38, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] rex part 7

Wanna learn more about the appaling state of Human Rights in Greece FlavrSavr? Get a load of these:

And there's more:

Honestly, if Greece wants to call herself European, then she will have to observe the European Convention on Human Rights. At time like this I'm so happy that I'm not in Greece and being subject to gross inhuman RACIST Human Rights violations. It is so nice here in the United Kingdom where the European Charter has been incorporated into domestic law Human Rights Act 1998. The Greeks are RACISTS! REX 13:47, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I am also happy that you're not in Greece.--Theathenae 13:51, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Then that makes two of us Δεαθήναι. I mean, who would want to live in a little tin-pot country in the remotest part of Europe with a lower standard of living than say the UK (Oops, that's not very PC, sorry about that) country which doesn't repect basic Human Rights? REX 14:00, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you would rather live in your homeland Albania, then? Its inhabitants do enjoy one of the highest standards of living in the Third World, after all. Now that I mention it, why did you leave in the first place?--Theathenae 14:15, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
That's something he will never answer, for obvious reasons: I believe the concept is called Human trafficking (εμπόριο λευκής σαρκός in Greek) Chronographos 17:15, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Mmmm! At least Albania recognises its minorities, such as the Aromanians. Gee, what does that tell us? REX 14:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

That it is ranked barely 72nd on the UN Human Development Index and Greece is a healthy 24th, just 9 notches below the UK which you consider so superior? In fact, the The Economist's more comprehensive 2005 quality-of-life index has Greece ranked 22nd and Britain a paltry 29th.[1] It is small wonder then that both Albanians and Britons have flocked to Greece in their tens of thousands in recent years, to be oppressed and have their basic human rights violated, no doubt.--Theathenae 14:29, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Maybe we should compare the suicide rate too. Suicide is by definition the best index if one wants to measure whether people feel that their life is worth living. Last time I looked, a Briton was more than two times as likely to commit suicide than a Greek. Chronographos 15:09, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

But, each and every life is worth living. Yet, someone must find the ability to use his brain, and understand that living is not something easy but something that nees courage, guts and a lot of work. +MATIA ☎ 16:38, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Brains? Courage? Work? Isn't this a tall order to ask of REX? Chronographos 16:59, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I believe he is too young and he has all the time in the world to do things better. What I'd like to see right away is proofs of good faith regarding co-operation in WP. And I don't think that reporting him will do any good, but I'll probably do it eventually. +MATIA ☎ 17:07, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

He is lying through his teeth all the time. Can't help it either. For all we know, he is a single teenage mother of four living on welfare and seething with rage. Chronographos 17:12, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I think he is 13 or 14 years old. And I think he may had rough time while in school, but that's the story for the majority of the school kids. +MATIA ☎ 17:16, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

You are assuming he did attend school. While this is an entirely reasonable assumption, it is not necessarily true. Chronographos 17:22, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ανεκδοτάκι

Ανέκδοτο που μου 'στειλε ένας φίλος Ελληνοσουδανός που γεννήθηκε Χαρτούμ αλλά μένει Αθήνα εδώ και χρόνια:

Einai enas pelargos kai kouvalaei enan gero 80 xronwn!

Kapoia stigmi gyrnaei o geros kai leei ston pelargo:

"Ela malaka! Paradeksou oti xathikame..."!--Theathenae 14:59, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Ακόμα γελάω! :)
+MATIA ☎ 16:31, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Re Just a note

Hi Matia, I've relied to your nice "note" on my talk page ;-) Paul August ☎ 17:33, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! +MATIA ☎ 17:40, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Theotokos

I checked the edits to Theotokos over the last month, and the only thing I saw that was really removed was a link to the Immaculate Conception in the "See Also" section. I don't have a terribly strong opinion one way or the other whether that link is there, I wasn't the one to remove it. You can add it in if you think it's important. (shrug) Wesley 16:18, 30 September 2005 (UTC)


[edit] I didn't delete the section

What to do? It has to be arbcom I'm afraid. I wasn't kidding when I said this was outside the juristiction of admins. We can't block for personal attacks (for a list of what we can block for see Wikipedia:Blocking policy). Sometimes when a disspute hasn't been going on for to long an admin can go in and sort things out but in this disspute has gone well beyond that.Geni 21:37, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] rex part 8

Aha! That's what MATIA is seeking. Well, you have little right to demand remedies for breach of Wikipedia policy. I may have partially broken Wikipedia policies such as Wikipedia:No personal attacks, but you have broken many more policies such as Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Cite sources, Wikipedia:NPOV and you have on many occassions commited Wikipedia:Vandalism and also in Wiki-Stalking and POV-Pushing. I have told you. When you provide sources (eg a weblink), like I did, UNESCO had no ambigutites, it clearly said that Arvanitic is a dialect of Tosk, plain and clear; then I will by all means accept your proposals. Perhaps it is you that should be blocked, not I! REX 21:59, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

REX unless you learn manners you are not welcome in my talk page. I've read your lies before, it's more that boring to repeat them. I have also told you before that you can report me. Go ahead and find all the evidence you can, though I really doubt anyone can find me violating WP principles, because I respect WP. +MATIA ☎ 22:03, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] REX's calumnies against me

EVIDENCE moved to my user page. +MATIA ☎ 20:16, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] About fonts

Further to your query on my talk page, I can see both of those and to me they look identical. Kind regards, jguk 12:02, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I think you're right that what I put should be replaced with something else - I just don't know which one's best though - maybe you could plump for one and see how it goes, jguk 12:07, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I hadn't noticed that English wasn't your first language. You guessed what I meant though:) jguk 12:11, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately, after your change, I can't make out the capital alpha. I can see the two accented epsilons though, which before today I couldn't, jguk 12:28, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
It appears the font templates are out of action today, as neither IPA nor Polytonic characters are displaying correctly. I'd say go back to the spelling with the ψιλή before the alpha and sit and wait until the polytonic template is back online.--Theathenae 12:37, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Both Ἀ and Ἀ look ok in my browser (even right now). +MATIA ☎ 12:41, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
You're right, I can't see either of those. Since my browser is the most common one, Internet Explorer, it's important that it changes so that it's readable on it, jguk 13:15, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Must be just me then. In that case I think the polytonic orthography is more appropriate for Alexander's name in Greek. After all, he was born and died well before 1982 and PASOK! :)--Theathenae 12:46, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
Any browser (including MSIE) can be configured to display utf8 correctly, and those two templates (named unicode and polytonic) were written mainly for MSIE support - on Gecko based browsers the things may be better.
As for orthography, you sure made a point Theathenae :) +MATIA ☎ 15:45, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hmmm

Hello MATIA, I see you've been active since FlavrSavr asked for your consent to mediation on Talk:Macedonian Slavs and I see you've failed to respond (for whatever reasons you had). I would like to get the Arvanites dispute over with. I am getting very tired and it's not doing me any good. Please read through my sources and come up with a proposal, we'll amend any faulty points (if any) and pass it. REX 22:54, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

FlavrSavr is a very decent man and I have told him before what I think regarding Macedonian Slavs, you might have noticed it while wiki-stalking me. +MATIA ☎ 23:11, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

MATIA, why are you denying the Arvanites of Epirus their right to be called Shqiptar. It is their will, they are Arvanites, the Helsinki Report says so. REX 23:13, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

a) that report is biased and b) there's not even one Arvanitis who self-identifies as Shqiptar. If you were an Arvanitis you would know that. But Arvanites don't have the right to exist according to User:REX, they must be called and identified as Albanians. Nor do they have the right to call Arvanitika a language. User:REX denies their basic human rights and calls anyone who has respect for them far right extremist. Unfortunately REX continues his attacks and this time he directly and literally associates me with nazis what next MATIA, you will ship all the Arvanites of Epirus to Auschwitz on his edit summary. +MATIA ☎ 23:25, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

MATIA, who do you think you are dismissing that report as biased? What next: UNESCO is biased for calling Arvanitic a dialect of Tosk, or Ethnologue is biased for calling it Arvanitika Albanian. I don't know who you think you are. You reject sources. Should we accept your word instead? Not a chance. I suggest you read Wikipedia:Verifiability. The Helsinki report says that Arvanites of Epirus call themselves Shqiptar even if you don't like it. REX 23:33, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I know who I am and I am not a nazi - this was the last drop. NO MORE CALUMNIES AGAINST ME. +MATIA ☎ 23:37, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

STOP behaving like one then. Who do you think you are by dismissing a legitimate repors as biased and denying the Arvanites of Northwes Greece to call themselves whatever they want. Do they need MATIA to tell them what they can and cannot do. Observe Wikipedia policy, you have no right to complain about me until you do. REX 23:44, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Arvanites don't have rights THEY MUST BE CALLED ALBANIANS.
MATIA doesn't have RIGHTS. REX TOLD US SO.
This is what the System requires.
+MATIA ☎ 23:46, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

All right MATIA, let's take this to Arbitration. Let's see if they think that the Helsinki Report is biased. REX 23:52, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

OBEY REX NOW! +MATIA ☎ 23:53, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

You can sneer at me if you wish MATIA, just know that you have been exposed and I have complained about you, logged out of course so that you can't engage in your favorite tactic: Wiki-Stalking. Excuse me now Your Highness, I have other things to be getting on with ... REX 00:04, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I cannot do anything. Arvanites cannot do anything, the Macedonians cannot do anything.
NO HUMAN RIGHTS FOR ANYONE.
This is what the System requires.
+MATIA ☎ 00:06, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Wanna learn more about the appaling state of Human Rights in Greece MATIA? Get a load of these:

And there's more:

Honestly, if Greece wants to call herself European, then she will have to observe the European Convention on Human Rights. At time like this I'm so happy that I'm not in Greece and being subject to gross inhuman RACIST Human Rights violations. It is so nice here in the United Kingdom where the European Charter has been incorporated into domestic law Human Rights Act 1998. The Greeks are RACISTS! I mean, who would want to live in a little tin-pot country in the remotest part of Europe with a lower standard of living than say the UK (Oops, that's not very PC, sorry about that) country which doesn't respect basic Human Rights? REX 00:08, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I have circular logic. Which tape shall I play today?
It must be the tape the System requires.
+MATIA ☎ 00:11, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mediation

Are you going to agree to mediation as proposed by Zocky for Macedonian Slavs (Talk) or not? GrandfatherJoe 17:56, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Hello REX's sockpuppet. Using a different account is in violation of your 3RR breaking. +MATIA ☎ 18:03, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Save the cynical accusations. Are you going to agree to mediation or not? GrandfatherJoe 18:11, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

REX, I 've wrote my thesis on the relevant talk pages days ago. +MATIA ☎ 18:18, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Is it time to report User:REX for violating his 24-hour block via his sockpuppet User:GrandfatherJoe? It seems he hasn't learned his lesson yet.--Theathenae 18:28, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Nope. It's interesting having him around. +MATIA ☎ 18:37, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Barnstar

I, FireFox hereby award you this Minor Barnstar for all your brilliant minor edits!
I, FireFox hereby award you this Minor Barnstar for all your brilliant minor edits!

I don't know what to say... Thanks! +MATIA ☎ 19:16, 2 October 2005 (UTC)














Why congratulations, MATIA! :)--Theathenae 18:46, 2 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Bomac perspective

You are such an actor and a sockpuppet master! I admire you, honestly. You really should go to Hollywood, because everybody want's in Hollywood! Bomac 22:19, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I have to let you know, that while I still have few hesitations to report REX's personal attacks, I want hesitate one minute to report your personal attacks, so don't tempt me. +MATIA ☎ 22:50, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

(also answered here)

Oooohhhh, MATIA's gone mad...... Bomac 11:08, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

By the way, this is not a personal attack, because there is nothing bad in Hollywood. Bomac 11:11, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Calling me mad or labeling me (or others) as greek extremist is against the official NPA policy. You have been warned. +MATIA ☎ 11:38, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Don't worry too much, MATIA. Let the uncouth wallow in the stench of their hate-filled Balkan verbal diarrhoea while you earn your barnstars - and they earn their 24-hour blocks. ;)--Theathenae 12:21, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Explanation

First: You are an extremist and a violent nationalist, because you deny other people's opinion in any way (remember, something that is called democracy and which originated from YOUR, then, antic country?). You (and others like you in Greece) can't tell other nations how to call themselves. For example, Macedonia and Macedonians: Macedonia has no territorial pretensions towards your country (as some Greeks say). It doesn't want to steal (or destroy) your ethnicity (including ethnonims) as some Greeks say, too. I mean, there are many regions in the world (including Europe) that have the same name with the country they border with (take for example, Armenia (the country) and Armenia (region in Turkey), then Republic of Moldova (or Moldavia) and Moldova or Moldavia (region in Romania) and so many other examples). Nobody quarrels there as you do, and there are no such, so-called ,,problems. So, I don't see any specific ,,problem in the name of your northern-neighbouring nation - Macedonians and Macedonia.

Second: What do you mean with that ,,to tell you from who I have copied my user page?... It's MY user page and you are welcome to visit it. Bomac 12:42, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I have my opinion and other people may have their opinion. Talking about it, or disagreeing, or proving with facts what is true and what is not, has nothing to do with "violent extremism". Was Aristotle, Diogenes and other philosophers who argued about various issues, extremists when they prooved that someone or some argument is false? I thought that was called dialogue. I told you before that labeling other people is against WP:NPA.

Your user page and that user page have many similarities. You could perhaps (as I've mentioned before) leave a note on your page stating how you got inspired.

I hope that answered your questions. +MATIA ☎ 13:19, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, yes indeed they are similar... But, I didn't copied anything from that page. Maybe we are with same opinions :-). I've never even talked with that user, so I couldn't have a chance to see his similar to mine user page.

But, I admire you how you recall about other people's user pages. Bomac 13:27, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately I have good memory, of what I've seen. Sometimes it's obvious and easy to find who said something similar, or even exactly the same thing with someone else, and other times it's harder (I'm not talking about user pages layout but in general). +MATIA ☎ 13:32, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

And, I think that Aristotle and the other antic greek philosophers were discussing about PROBLEMS FROM THAT TIME. Today, many things have stormly changed. We are the 21-st century now, as you know. Bomac 13:35, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Good for you. Bomac 13:38, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

What I meant (you can read again my previous comment) is that if you talk, disagree, or prove that someone is wrong, it is called dialogue not extremism. Labeling other people doesn't help the process of any dialogue. Dialogue is the foundation of Democracy. +MATIA ☎ 13:41, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, you are right. But, you and your ,,friends make some things here that aren't dialogue. That goes for the Greek diplomacy. Bomac 13:44, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Bomac, in April Greece accepted the new name "republic makedonija-skopje" (or something like that) as a basis for negotiations and your country rejected it, repeating your country's proposal to use the name "macedonia".+MATIA ☎ 13:53, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Hah :-)... But, Macedonia gave basis for negotiations, too (the double formula). And Greece didn't accepted it. Bomac 14:05, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

The rms name wasn't Greek proposal, but UNO proposal and only your country rejected it. And few days before Blair told Buckovski that there should be an attitude change. Having said that, the naming issued won't be solved by +MATIA ☎ and User:Bomac. +MATIA ☎ 14:19, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Plus, Macedonia made many steps in the dialogue: changed it's flag because of Greece and democracy, changed it's constitution because of Greece and democracy... I think it's Greece's turn in the democratic dialogue, what now is needed is Greece's feedback in this democratic dialogue. Bomac 14:19, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Ofcourse we can't solve this issue :-), we are only talking, just like all other people in the democratical societies. Bomac 14:24, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Guess who's back :-))))))))

Feel free to share your thoughts. REX 18:12, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] some questions for REX

do you like albanians and scanderbeg? +MATIA ☎ 15:18, 3 October 2005 (UTC) (the above questioned was unanswered and erased)

I respect them and their history. While talking few months ago about Arvanites, Albanau reminded me of Scanderbeg. I had read in the past that he claimed Epirotic origin. I did a little research and I've contributed on Scanderbeg doing minor expansions of the article. I kept my personal opinion that Scanderbeg might be partially Greek out of the Scanderbeg article, showing my respect to him and Albanians. You on the other hand, proposed the usage of the term variety regarding Arvanitika but on the same time you engaged edit wars forcing the naming of Arvanitika as Arvanitic dialect. Can you understand what's wrong with that picture? If you do we can continue our little talk. +MATIA ☎ 18:35, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
MATIA, I think that you should know that I, like you (I hope) want to get this dispute over with. As far as I can see you are trying to suppress the fact that some Arvanites view Arvanites to be Albanians and that, for at least linguistic purposes, Arvanitic is a dialect/variety of Albanian. I just find it really hard to believe that you are genuinely trying to promote NPOV and not just your POV. I made a reasonably moderate proposal of which every single word could be justified under one of the NPOV sources; and you rejected it on the grounds that you know its untrue. MATIA you cannot prove that it is untrue. According to Wikipedia policy Wikipedia:No original research what you come up with on your own and is not endorsed by any scientific body or in this case, any source at all, cannot be used in any Wikipedia article. As for the book you mention, amazon.co.uk seems to indicate that it is in Greek. Notwithstanding the fact that I can understand it, it is an unacceptable source under Wikipedia policy Wikipedia:Verifiability which states that all sources must be in English (with the notable exception of quotes). I am willing to let you make your minor edits such as adding that bit about the Arvanitis wind and the names of prominent Arvanites etc. UNESCO, Ethnologue, Britannica and Encarta all seem to agree that Arvanitic is a variety of Albanian and the Helsinki Report says that most linguists call the language Albanian despite the fact that a number of the resent that wording. You do not have the right to dismiss these sources which all can be accessed over the Internet and qualify as reliable sources, just because you believe that that report is biased. I find the fact that you oppose including the name that the Arvanites of North-Western Greece use for themselves ridiculous. Don't say that they aren't Arvanites because they don't identify as Arvanites. The Helsinki Report seems to suggest that they (as well as most historians and linguists) view Arvanites and Albanians as one and the same. You may not know this but you were seriously violating Wikipedia policy back there and your reverting my justified edits in favour of unjustifiable ones was vandalism. In my proposal, I have toned down the bit about diaspora dialect and the fact that UNESCO and Ethnologue call the language Arvanitika Albanian and I just insist on saying that it is a variety of Albanian. We cannot play with the facts. REX 18:38, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

REX I've read that while you were blocked. I've made some specific questions above. Read them, understand them, but please don't repeat the same arguments again and again, especially if it's not an answer. If you prefer to ignore WP rules or attack me (with you-know-what-labels) you will understand, the hard way, that I never bluff. +MATIA ☎ 18:46, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

MATIA, there is a reason I want you to comment on my above statement. It outlines what you are doing wrong. Do you understend what you are doing wrong? REX 18:51, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

But actually, that ,,upstairs is quite an answer MATIA. Bomac 18:48, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Bomac you may ask Sterbinski if I bluff.+MATIA ☎ 18:53, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Bomac, that's enough for now. REX 18:51, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

REX I believe you have the ability to express yourself. What are your thoughts about it? +MATIA ☎ 18:53, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I see that you are apparently willing to avoid co-operating. I have explained above how you are violating Wikipedia policy rearding sources. Do you understand what you are doing wrong? My edits are always justified by WP policy on sources. REX 18:59, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

You don't have to answer right now REX. Think about it and answer whenever you can. I won't repeat the questions, they're right here waiting for you. +MATIA ☎ 19:02, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

No MATIA, you answer my question first. I am doing nothing wrong. My edits can't be chalenged under Wikipedia policy. Yours can. Do you understand why? REX 19:06, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

If you believe that you must report me. And by the way, were did you report the last time? (I 'm talking about that - do I have the right to defend myself? ) +MATIA ☎ 20:46, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Number of Slavic speaking Macedonians in Greece

MATIA, that census has not been answered. All that has been established is that it was not undertaken by the Greek government but by some other body. If you persist in removing it unjustifiably you shall be reported for vandalism. Thank you. REX 20:39, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

That census was not undertaken by the Greek government. This is apparent because Greece does not include questions on ethnicity and language in its census. Therefore it is some other body's estimate and if Ethnologue can use it, then Wikipedia can use it. REX 20:44, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I've read and answered your arguments before. If you want to repeat them use the relevant discussion page and not my talk page. +MATIA ☎ 20:48, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gee, yet another source written in Greek calling Arvanitika an Albanian dialect

Gee, yet another source written in Greek calling Arvanitika a quote: διάλεκτος της Αλβανικής. I guess you now see MATIA that I am not being unreasonable, all I want is to promote NPOV. I sincerely wish to believe that you do too. :-))))) REX 13:50, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Read the whole pdf REX. Brian Joseph thesis on Arvanitika contradicts your editwars on Arvanites. And yes he has studied Arvanitika. Thank you for reminding me of him. +MATIA ☎ 13:58, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
What a pity he calls it an Albanian dialect and you have no sources. It is quite clear that you are violating WP policy Wikipedia:Cite sources amongst others and yet you see fit to dicipline me. You should sort out your own transgressions first. And you should NEVER edit without sources. REX 14:04, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok, what will you prefer RFC or RFAr? As for the linguist, I'll provide the quotes you choosed to ignore.+MATIA ☎ 14:12, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

I prefer RFAr. And I'll provide all the sources. You can provide your invisible sources. REX 14:16, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

MATIA, let's face it... You SIMPLY DON'T HAVE ANY ***-**** SOURCES!!! Bomac 15:01, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Shhh Bomac, you mustn't tell MATIA that he doesn't have any sources because he won't ever listen. :-))) REX 15:37, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

My POV on the dispute (please assume good faith) - Matia, you cannot ignore that most sources, which are quite reliable, regard this language as Arvanitika Albanian. Even if you provide the quotes from that linguist, Brian Johnson, it is a fact that UNESCO and Ethnologue regard this language as a dialect of Albanian. I mean, Brian Johnson (if he claims that Arvanitika is an entirely separate language from Albanian) could be a genius, while UNESCO and Ethnologue could be terribly wrong, but they constitute the majority view on this language/dialect, and this has implications on the structure of the text. (See:NPOV#Undue weight) --FlavrSavr 18:49, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

In general, the situation on the Macedonian Slavs article gives me little belief in Wikipedia's relevancy when dealing with sensitive interethnic issues. Therefore, until the naming dispute is resolved (Matia, do you reject mediation?), I'm not planning to engage in other ethnic issues, which tend to give the larger ethnicities POV more prominence, even at the expense of the majority independent view of a certain dispute. This is a very grave threat to Wikipedia. Jimbo Wales is expected to visit the ex Yugoslav republics in spring, I hope that we'll address this issue to him. There is a positive attitude in the administration of the Macedonian, Serbian, Bosniak, Croatian, and Slovenian Wikipedia in offering a solution for this problem. Basically, there is a clear need for more neutral participation in burning disputes. --FlavrSavr 18:49, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

I also don't like the idea of editing Macedonia related articles. I wouldn't like to see a sentence such as "The Macedonian Slav director Milcho Manchevski". He wouldn't like it either, and his movies are a lecture against nationalism. It's a matter of principles, not nationalism. I'll probably edit some art-related topics. An article about Anthony Ausgang, some more info about Hans Burgkmair... I'll figure it out... However, I won't be doing that until Friday, I have an exam, so I'll minimize my presence here, until then. Regards. --FlavrSavr 18:49, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Hello FlavrSavr, I'll need your help to clear my name. +MATIA ☎ 18:56, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] DEUX EX MACHINA or agent provocateur?

[edit] Again

Again, are you going to agree to mediation as proposed by Zocky for Macedonian Slavs (Talk) or not? We really must have a definite 'yes' or 'no' from you. Please post your reply on Talk:Macedonian Slavs. Thank you. GrandfatherJoe 09:55, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sockpuppetry

Hi Matia, I was just casually glancing at Special:Ipblocklist and I noticed that you have been blocked. I suggest you try to evade the block using sockpuppetry like Theathenae did and maybe then you'll understand why I am not a sockpuppet like you ridiculed me as. GrandfatherJoe 15:17, 5 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] INJUSTICE

I'll clear the calumnies against me and I'll seek apologies for the injustice I've suffered. +MATIA ☎ 18:56, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal

MATIA, I'm tired of having to do everything: drafting all the proposals, finding all the sources; while you just sit back and criticise. I want you to come up with a proposal supported by the sources we already have. If you don't, I'll take it as a sign on bad faith. I don't see why I should do everything around here. REX 08:27, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

See it as you wish. Don't you always do that? I've talked with numerous other editors, why do I have problems only with you. Am I a REX-hater? My contributions are recorded and anyone can check them thoroughly and see if I sit back and criticize or offer my voluntarily work. You are the one who label people if you disagree with them, since March 2005? Why do you do that? What's your problem? Why does it had to become my problem too? Where did I do you wrong? Your continual harrassment and my unreasoned block have changed my mind for wikipedia. If anyone ignores your copy-pasting of UNESCO and Helsinki HRW at Arvanites, will see that you were the only one who continually ignored consensus. But that copy-pasting made the Talk:Arvanites difficult to read; so I got blocked while I wasn't even editing. At least since March 2005 what you do is call people far-right-nationalists and other labels. I've repeatedly asked you not to call me this way or to show how can this personal attack be justified. The result? More PA, actions that could be interpreted as wiki-stalking, the appearance of GrandfatherJoe etc etc. If really neutral people read what was written in Talk:Arvanites they'll notice that there was a consensus that you disagreed and did what? Came back every 20 days and tried to change what was written about Arvanites to label them as Albanians. Everything is already written and answered REX, even if you copy pasted those two reports repeatedly, someone will sort out your mess in this page some day. +MATIA ☎ 08:49, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it's so easy to pin everything on REX, isn't it. REX the Demon, REX the Devil, REX Pure Evil! Well, I've got news for you MATIA: either you can provide sources to support your explosive claims or you can clear off. You should stop wasting our time with calumnies and childish tantrums. You should learn some self control and learn to accept the basic truth: when you are wrong; quit. I sincerely hope you solve all your problems, but until then; stop pestering us. REX 16:58, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Although you have succeded in changing what I believed for wikipedia, and this means that I'll leave this project, have in your mind that you cannot intimidate me and first I'll earn my apologies and complete my unfinished tasks here, and then I'll leave the project. Enough with your harrassments and your calumnies. REX the liar: you have been told that when you are wrong quit dont twist the truth! Backoff wikistalker! +MATIA ☎ 17:54, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Urdhëro-ni MATIA, urdhëro-ni! REX 20:20, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I wish the same to you - whatever it is. +MATIA ☎ 20:39, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] response from FlavrSavr

Hey, I send that comment to Talk:Macedonian Slavs and I was just about to reply to you and to Kosovar when I suddenly went offline. As for your request for clearing out your name, I really don't know how to help? I mean, you are obviously in some quarrel with REX, I really don't know how to help there - you should probably both stop it, (regardless who's started it) and try to find a solution according to the NPOV policy. I have already stated my POV on the Arvanites dispute - I might be wrong, but it is probably better for me to stay away from the dispute. I think that REX's current version is quite OK. It includes what the vast majority linguists say: Arvanitika, is a variety of Tosk Albanian, and Arvanites' sensitivity towards the problem: Most Arvanites strongly dislike being called Albanians. I mean, it's not like saying that Arvanites are ethnic Albanians. For example: I cannot dispute the fact that most sources in the past referred to the Macedonian language, as a Bulgarian or a Serbian dialect, despite the fact that I believe that they were seriously wrong, and therefore there is nothing wrong with this sentence: Most sources in the past regarded Macedonian as a subset of the Bulgarian and Serbian language.

As for the block, I think that you're taking it too seriously. I haven't been blocked, but I have been ignored several times by some admins, although I've specifically requested not to be ignored (they could have at least said that: "I don't want to get involved" or smtg like that). My POV is that all the three blocks were somekind of a mistake (in the formal sense). I guess Tony Sidaway acted in good faith, but chose the wrong means to convince you guys to finally stop PAs. I also think that Fred Bauder misunderstood REX's actions, as well, but he manages to live on :-). That of course, is only my POV. But it is a fact that admins are humans as well.

As for the RfC, I don't see any particular reason to believe that neutrals will get involved in it all of the sudden. If they do, great. But if they don't, we cannot wait indefinitely. After all, Mediation isn't such a big deal. Regards. --FlavrSavr 02:37, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] new comments after this section please

and I might or might not answer them or see them +MATIA ☎ 13:30, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] None taken...

Sorry for the somewhat late response but I was rather busy these days. I wasn’t offended at all by your comment. I hope that you will reconsider and re-evaluate the situation and continue contributing to wikipedia. Regards Ninio 21:01, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Glad to see you back; or should I say, glad to see that your "wikidrawal syndrome" has kicked in... Take care -- Ninio 00:53, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Arbitration accepted

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/REX has been accepted. Please place any evidence at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/REX/Evidence Fred Bauder 21:14, 14 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] grandfatherjoe Again

Hi Matia, It's nice to see you're back. We've needed you, you still haven't told us if you accept mediation for Macedonia (Slav). GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 19:45, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I've told you that people who disrespect me are not welcome in my talk page. Asking the same thing again and again will get you where? Do you believe you can interrogate me or anything like that? If so what makes you believe anything like that? And what do you mean with the plural us? Who are you? +MATIA ☎ 19:59, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't disrespect you, I have never disrespected you. It is you who disrespects me, you are always calling me a sockpuppet, while I have never said a thing against you. I want to know if you accept mediation for Macedonia (Slav). Us is me, User:FlavrSavr, User:REX, User:Bomac and User:Macedonian. You may remember that FlavrSavr asked you if you accept mediation after you asked for his help to clear your name. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 20:08, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you very much for clarifying us. I must reply that you are not welcome in my user talk page, that means stop repeating the same question. And I doubt that us includes User:FlavrSavr. Does your nickname have anything to do with your age? +MATIA ☎ 20:13, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] User:Albanau

Hi there! Just FYI: User:Albanau is identical with User:L'Houngan and User:213.100.205.149, a rabid Albanian nationalist. He is also identical with sv:Användare:Albanau, who is blocked indefinitely on Swedish Wikipedia, but this hostile troll continues to operate through several sock puppets. Best regards Probert 07:52, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Macedoneni

Hey, don't worry, I have the references ready and available online. In fact, I'm about link at least one in the Macedonian (disambiguation) article. -Alexander 007 11:55, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tell me

No, I want to hear from you, my dear MATIA, what is going on? The title of the article is Macedonians (ethnic group) and cleary states that. What is your problem now? Bomac 20:10, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Skopianoi

They had their way with the article's title but enough is enough. Their propaganda is getting out of hand, and the mention of the Slavic nationalist POV is in no way appropriate for wikipedia. It should stay off because it doesn't reflect the truth. Miskin 10:15, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

You should be satissfied that the name of the article is not only "Macedonians", but "Macedonians (ethnic group)". Bomac 15:10, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Kollias

MATIA, I removed Kollias's thesis because I thought that you (and certainly Theathenae) would object. You both seem to react with such indignation when one suggests that a Greek ethnic minority speak have links to another nationality. I expected that you would both scream Albanian POV like you both said about UNESCO (!) My thesis regarding Arvanites can be be found [[2]]. Please read and comment. I have no objection to what you have added, I object to what you have removed (inter alia the fact that the Arvanites of Epirus call themselves Shqiptar etc). Please read my statement, it lays out in detail my thesis and is supported by sources. Any questions you may have, don't hesitate to ask. REX 12:34, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Msikin, you are making a propaganda here, just to remember you... Bomac 12:42, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

What do you mean? HolyRomanEmperor 16:31, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Re: del?

Yes, I deleted Arvanitika while I was cleaning up the absolutely horrendous mess of redirects surrounding the Arvanitic language page move controversy. Since you were previously involved in this, could I invite you to try to help build consensus over on the talk page so I can unprotect the articles, and we can have some closure? Thanks.

Incidentally, once it's decided what's to be done, you can re-create the copious redirects; it's just that the ones we had pointed all over the shop, with double-redirects and broken redirects and even cross-article redirects (where an article's talk page redirects to the wrong page's talk page) - all sorts of mess. Rob Church Talk | FAHD 14:21, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Move log

The move log for Arvanitic language shows one move, so you may want to view the move log for the other names this page has had, such as Arvanitika etc. Rob Church Talk | FAHD 00:58, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removed section

To be frank, the whole thing looked like turning into another mini-argument over the ArbCom case. If you see my logic; that isn't directly related to this move, per se. If you really do feel it's relevant, by all means, re-add it. I'm just trying to keep the peace. :) Rob Church Talk 14:32, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Peace

MATIA, can't we be friends, we know each other well enough by now. I have nothing against you and I hope that you have nothing against me. All we have are petty disputes over silly nationalistic things. Can't we be friends in spite of that, you have proven yourself to be a Good fsith editor, you have made significan contributions to Wikipedia etc. I don't see why we should always be at odds with each other :-) Rex(talk) 23:42, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

REX that would be very nice indeed. The thing is that even today you called me a far-right-something... and I know you organised the one-night-consensus, and I know that you have used at least one more account (the k one, remember?). Each time I return from a wikibreak, you have a new surprise for me REX and your surprises aren't friendly or peaceful, (I just remembered how you distorted my words on Talk:Macedonians_(ethnic_group)#Tactics_and_tricks and that you labeled Arvanites as ethnic Albanians when I discouraged Greek editors from editing the article). On the other hand, as I've told before, you too have done a lot of good contribs, for example Arvanitic alphabet. Peace is a lovely thing, but it's not just a word. +MATIA ☎ 00:09, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

MATIA, can't we put all that behind us. Also, the k account is no longer mine, I have given the password to a friend of mine, but he hasn't used it yet. I don't think he ever will. He said he wanted an account with existing contributions so people would take him seriously. Also, I have never labeled Arvanites ethnic Albanians on the article, I merely said that Arvanitika is an Albanian dialect (which is true according to UNESCO etc). What I want to do is make more contribs on the Greek WP, but I never get round to doing it :-( I think that you should also know that I have made better contribs than the Arvanitic alphabet. I added the Pater Noster and the Nicene Creed on Greek language (it's hard to write polytonic), I started the English people article. I added the infoboxes to Arvanites, Albanians and Macedonian Slavs. Anyway, to stop bragging, I sincerely think that you edit out of good faith, and I may be a bit aggresive when I get wikistressed, but you can't say you don't (OK less personal attacks) :-) Rex(talk) 00:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I love peace REX. But there are many things that needs to be clarified. +MATIA ☎ 11:14, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

What needs to be clarified? Rex(talk) 12:09, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

The surprises I 've told you yesterday REX (read again, above). +MATIA ☎ 12:17, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

replied on Talk:Arvanitic language. This discussion belongs there. Rex(talk) 16:49, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Naming conventions

Please be aware that Wikipedia:Naming conventions (languages) does not connote Wikipedia policy - it is not tagged as such. It merely represents a guideline, which may be ignored in certain cases. Rob Church Talk 17:12, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Consideration?

MATIA, I may be willing to walk away from the articles Arvanitic language and Arvanites if you provide sufficient consideration. Think about it and make me an offer. Rex(talk) 19:37, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Can you expand on that, or try in Greek if you can and want. I didn't exactly understand the wiki about consideration, something like a bargain? For Arvanites I would like to write everything we can find about them, as NPOV as possible. And we can stop calling each other names. How does these sound for a start? +MATIA ☎ 20:37, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Ματιά, σχεδιάχω να φύγω από τη Βικιπαίδεια (ίσως μόνιμα), επειδή μου έχει γίνει σχεδόν εμμονή. Περνάω περισσότερες ώρες απ' όσο πρέπει εδώ και αυτό δεν είναι καλό, ειδικά για κάποιον της ηλικίας μου. Επειδή φεύγω, προφανώς, θα μπορείς να κάνεις ότι θέλεις στα λήμματα για τους Αρβανίτες. Δεν είναι το πρόβλημα μου αυτό.

Πήγα σε οφθλμίατρο σήμερα και μου είπε ότι είμαι short sighted και ότι θα χρειαστώ γυαλιά. Εγώ τώρα υποθέτω ότι η Βικιπαίδεια το προκάλεσε αυτό. Οι ατελέιωτες ώρες μπροστά στην οθόνη συγκεκριμένα. Επίσης το wikistress (που είναι και ανοησία κατά τη γνώμη μου, αφού η Βικιπαίδεια είναι απλώς χόμπυ. Γιατί με ενοχλούν τέτοια πράγματα τόσο πολύ δε θα καταλάβω ποτέ).

Επειδή φεύγω, το μεγάλο εμπόδιο στα σχέδια σου για τα λήμματα για τους Αρβανίτες θα εξαφανιστεί. Καλό για σένα. Το consideration έχει να κάνει με μια χάρη που θέλω να μου κάνεις. Στα Μακεδονικά ζητήματα, θέλω να λαμβάνεις υπόψη σοβαρά τη γνώμη τους. Αυτά τα ζητήματα αφορούν την εθνικότητά τους, μπορεί να μην είναι σοβαρά για εμάς που δέν είμαστε Μακεδόνες, αλλά για αυτούς είναι. Το κράτος τους και η εθνικότητά τους είναι πλέων μια πραγματικότητά, και δεν μπορεί να αλλάξει. Θέλω να το σεβαστείς αυτό και να μην προσπαθήσεις να επιβάλλεις την άποψή σου, ότι το όνομά τους είναι απλώς προπαγάνδα (όπως είπες στην Ελληνική Βικιπαίδεια). Μόνο ουδετερότητα να προσπαθείς να επιβάλλεις. Δεν λέω ότι δεν το έκανες μέχρι τώρα, αλλά ο Δεαθήναι έχει την τάση να παρασύρει τον κόσμο σε υπερβολές. Δεν μπορείς να αρνηθείς ότι είναι εθνικιστής. Θέλω να προσπαθείς να τον συγκρατείς. Επίσης, συγνώμη για όλες τις προσωπικές επιθέσεις και που σε ταυτιζα με εθνικιστές.

Φιλικά,

Rexhep Bojaxhiu,

22:14, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Λοιπόν, τα παραπάνω είναι πιθανότερα η πιο έντιμη τοποθέτησή σου ως τώρα. Έχω νιώσει κι εγώ wikiholic κι έχω νιώσει κι αυτή την τάση φυγής. Ίσως έχεις παρατηρήσει ότι μετά απ'τις κόντρες μας και το μπλοκ, μια βδομάδα είμαι στη βικιπαίδεια και μια βδομάδα δεν πατάω καθόλου. Και ο Alexander007 μου είχε πει, με τον οποίο έχω διάφορες διαφωνίες αλλά αυτό δεν έχει σημασία, there is a whole world out there, apart from wikipedia, don't let it put you down or something like that (μην επιτρέπεις να σε στενοχωρεί). Δέχομαι τη συγνώμη σου και για μένα προσωπικά ήταν παραπάνω από όσα θα ζήταγα, θα μου αρκούσε να μη με ξανα-αποκαλέσεις οτιδήποτε. Όλοι έχουμε μια καλή και μια κακή πλευρά, και πριν "γνωριστούμε" μου ήταν αδιανόητο ότι σήμερα θα μπορούσε κάποιος να με εκνευρίσει μέσω ίντερνετ (μην το πάρεις στραβά, αλλά είμαι παλιότερος, απλά επειδή είμαι μεγαλύτερός σου στην ηλικία - μετά από κάποια χρόνια θα δεις ότι κι εσύ θα ασχοληθείς με ένα σωρό πράγματα, επειδή θα έχεις περισσότερο ελεύθερο χρόνο, από όσο είχες στο σχολείο ή στις σπουδές σου). Απ'την άλλη θα ήθελα να μην έλεγες ούτε τον Θεαθήναι ή οποιονδήποτε άλλο (Ιρλανδό ή δε ξέρω τι) εθνικιστή. Ο τύπος είχε πει ότι ψηφίζει Συνασπισμό, κι αν έχεις ζήσει στην Ελλάδα ίσως ξέρεις ότι είναι κόμμα της αριστεράς - καμία σχέση με ακροδεξιούς. Όταν λες συνέχεια τον άλλο ακροδεξιό ή με άλλο χαρακτηρισμό που δεν του αρέσει, είναι πολύ σπάνιο να το ανεχτεί (νομίζω εκτός από υπερβολικά επίμονος, έχω δείξει παλαιότερα ότι είμαι και υπομονετικός).

Δεν με ενδιαφέρει να κάνω ότι θέλω στους Αρβανίτες ή αλλού. Θέλω κάτι έντιμο για αυτούς, αλλά σίγουρα το έχω πάρει πολύ προσωπικά έτσι όπως εξελίχτηκαν τα πράγματα.

Η συνεχή χρήση υπολογιστή θεωρείται υπεύθυνη για διάφορα προβλήματα. Η κακή στάση του σώματος ή η συνεχή ακινησία του για παράδειγμα, δεν είναι καλή. Λένε ότι κάθε 45 λεπτά πρέπει να σηκώνεσαι και να κινείσαι για ένα τέταρτο, αλλά ποιος τους ακούει. Τα μάτια μπορεί να επηρεαστούν αλλά δεν είναι κάτι τραγικό - πολύ περισσότεροι άνθρωποι έχουν προβλήματα πχ μυωπία λόγω κληρονομικότητας. Το πρόβλημα, με τις οθόνες ή μερικές φορές το διάβασμα, είναι ότι μένουν τα μάτια σταθερά ή μάλλον "κολλημένα" στο ίδιο σημείο, κι αυτό τα κάνει να τεμπελιάζουν και αργότερα μπορεί να εξελιχτεί σε κάτι άλλο, που χρειάζεται γυαλιά (ο γιατρός θα σου τα εξήγησε καλύτερα). Ένα σωρό κόσμος φοράει γυαλιά, δεν είναι τίποτα τραγικό. Εγώ απ'την άλλη θα έπρεπε να φοράω γυαλιά, επειδή έχω από μικρή ήλικία κάποιο πρόβλημα στο ένα μάτι (δεν διακρίνει λεπτομέρειες πχ γράμματα), και δε με απασχολεί πολύ (διαβάζω με το άλλο). Πρόσεξέ το αλλά ούτε αυτό είναι κάτι σημαντικό.

Το wikistress το 'χω νιώσει κι εγώ και μου φαίνεται κι εμένα βλακεία. Αλλά το έχω, και το wikiholism το έχω ακόμα πιο πολύ. Ώρες-ώρες μοιάζει σαν τσιγάρο, μακροχρόνια εθιστική συνήθεια. Το μακροχρόνια δεν είναι αρκετά σωστό επειδή μέσα σε λίγους μήνες (αρχές καλοκαιριού άρχισα τη συμμετοχή μου εδώ) έπαθα τη "ζημιά". Άρα η wikipedia είναι πολύ εθιστική.

Είχα γράψει στην ArbCom ότι δε θέλω να γίνεις μπλοκ, κι αν έφτανε η κατάσταση στο σημείο να προταθεί κάποιο μακροχρόνιο μπλοκ για σένα θα αντιδρούσα έντονα. Και σου είχα γράψει και σε σένα ότι έχω δει διάφορα καλά στοιχεία στον χαρακτήρα σου. Με τον καιρό θα βρεις τρόπους να κοντρολάρεις τα όποια τυχόν κακά, πριν τους βρεις μόνος σου, ακόμα κι αν κάποιος σου πει, διόρθωσε αυτό ή κάνε εκείνο, δεν είναι σίγουρο αν θα πιάσει. Αλλά θα έρθει η στιγμή που θα τα διορθώσεις.

Εγώ πιστεύω ότι θα γυρίσεις, απλά επειδή κι εγώ το ίδιο έκανα. Απ'την άλλη μπορεί να φανείς πιο δυνατός από μένα, και να μείνεις εκτός. Μόνος σου σκέψου, κι αν αποφασίσεις να μείνεις, έλεγξε και το χρόνο που θα διαθέτεις και τα συναισθήματά σου.

Η boolean logic (0 ή 1, ναι ή όχι) έχει ένα πεδίο εφαρμογών. Όταν είχε γίνει το poll είπα τις απόψεις μου, και μετά προσπαθούσα να το συζητήσω με τους άλλους σε εκείνη τη σελίδα. Όταν έγραφα ότι δε λήφθηκε υπόψη εκείνο το poll δε σήμαινε ούτε ότι υπήρχε consensus για το ναι ούτε για το όχι (δεν ήταν boolean). Αυτοί που η βικιπαίδεια ονομάζει ΕλληνοΜακεδόνες έχουν αντιρρήσεις και νιώθουν ότι αδικούνται, επειδή μεγάλωσαν πιστεύοντας ότι είναι Μακεδόνες. Οι βόρειοι γείτονες, μεγάλωσαν κι αυτοί πιστεύοντας ότι είναι Μακεδόνες και πιστεύουν ότι αδικούνται. Σε κάποια σημεία έχουν και οι δυο δίκιο και σε άλλα και οι δυο άδικο. Η αλήθεια είναι σκορπισμένη. Η βικιπαίδεια έχει πάρα πολλές ελλείψεις στα μακεδονίτικα θέματα, για παράδειγμα η Μακεδονία στην εποχή του Βυζαντίου είναι το απόλυτο κενό. Μήπως ο Αριστοτέλης, που γεννήθηκε στα Στάγειρα της Μακεδονίας, δεν είναι Μακεδόνας; Πήγε σα μαθητής στην Αθήνα, έγινε δάσκαλος, και μετά τον κάλεσε πίσω στην Μακεδονία ο Φίλιππος για να διδάξει τον Αλέξανδρο. Ακριβώς επειδή πίστεψα ότι το poll εκείνο δεν ήταν ούτε ναι, ούτε όχι, έπιασα τον Φλαβρ και συζητούσαμε, επειδή ήθελα κάτι έντιμο και για εκείνους και για εμάς. Στις 30 Αυγούστου του λέω ότι πρέπει να κάνει RFC και να ζητήσει mediation. Κι έρχεσαι μετά εσύ και ο ΠαππούςΤζο (που σε μερικά σημεία ταυτίζονταν υπερβολικά οι απόψεις σας), αρχίζεις να λες οι ακροδεξιοί Έλληνες φοβούνται το mediation και περιμένεις να λάβεις απάντηση. Τι απάντηση να σου δώσω αφού του είχα πει να κάνει mediation κι από τότε προσπαθούσα να μαζέψω ουδέτερους αντμίν, ώστε να υπάρχει μια ομάδα να βοηθήσει τους χρήστες να συνενοηθούν; Οι υπόλοιποι Έλληνες που εξτρεμιστές τους ανέβαζες, ακροδεξιούς τους κατέβαζες, πώς περίμενες να αντιδράσουν; Περίμενες να δείξουν υπομονή; Κι αυτοί όπως οι ΜακΣλάβοι νιώθουν αδικημένοι. Απ' την άλλη εγώ ένιωσα πολύ κορόιδο όταν "χτενίζοντας" (που πες κι εσύ χτες) το google είδα ότι ιστορικοί των Σκοπιών χρησιμοποιούν κι αυτοί τον όρο Σλαβομακεδόνες (τα αγγλικά τα διάβασα με τα μάτια μου, σλαβικά - αναφέρομαι στη γλωσσική οικογένεια κι όχι στην MKD - δε ξέρω). Πιθανότατα, όταν με το καλό γίνει το mediation θα γράψω μια ανάλυση για το τι πιστεύω, με βάση όσα έκανα όλο αυτόν τον καιρό στην αγγλική, γιατί όπως σου έγραψα πριν το poll δείχνει ότι υπάρχει πρόβλημα, που δε λύνεται ούτε με το Σλάβοι, ούτε με το Εθνική Ομάδα. Εσύ άραγες συμφωνείς ότι η εγκυρότητα του άρθρου είναι αμφισβητίσιμη επειδή τα συμφωνημένα γεγονότα (υπήρχαν πριν το poll και σ' αυτά βασίστηκε) δεν είναι καταγεγραμμένα μέσα στο άρθρο;

Δε ξέρω αν σε λένε Ρετζέπ ή Κυριάκο όπως είχες πει παλιά στους Αρβανίτες, και δε με αφορά. Είχες μια συμπεριφορά που έκανε τους άλλους να παίρνουν αμυντική ή ίσως επιθετική στάση. Μετά βρέθηκες κι εσύ σε παρόμοια θέση. Δε χρειάζονται να γίνονται αυτά τα πράγματα, και σίγουρα δεν πρέπει να γίνονται με αυτόν τον τρόπο. Βρες τρόπους να εξηγηθείς ντόμπρα κι εγώ θα είμαι μαζί σου. Πες συγνώμη και στους υπόλοιπους που αποκάλεσες Έλληνες εξτρεμιστές, κι αν σου πουν ότι δεν το δέχονται, κάνε κουράγιο - μην τους ξαναπροκαλέσεις και μην τους βρίσεις. Σου εγγυώμαι, ότι ακόμα κι αν δεν δεχτούν το συγνώμη στην αρχή, θα το δεχτούν μακροπρόθεσμα, αν δεν κάνεις τα ίδια λάθη.

Προσωπικά θα ήθελα να ξεκαθαριστούν τα πράγματα που ανέφερα παραπάνω, οι δυσάρεστες εκπλήξεις (surprises) που έβρισκα κάθε φορά που επέστρεφα από wikibreak. Θεωρώ ότι οι Arbs είναι έμπιστοι και διορατικοί. Θα ήθελα να το υποβαθμίσουμε, ίσως με τον τρόπο που είχε προτείνει ο Tony (mediation between two users), ώστε να ηρεμήσεις κι εσύ. Αλλά πιστεύω ότι πρέπει να ξεκαθαριστούν. Ίσως βοηθήσει ο Ρομπ και ο Τόνυ, ίσως βοηθήσουμε κι εγώ με εσένα.

Όσο αφορά τα Αλβανικά, εγώ τους σέβομαι. Οι Αλβανοί, όπως οι Αρβανίτες, παρόμοια με τους Σπαρτιάτες και τους αρχαίους Μακεδόνες, διακρίθηκαν σαν στρατιώτες. Γι' αυτό το λόγο χρησιμοποιήθηκαν σαν μισθοφόροι από διάφορους (Βυζαντινούς αυτοκράτορες, Βενετούς κτλ). Οι Σπαρτιάτες είχαν ξεχωρίσει πολύ νωρίτερα στην αρχαία Ελλάδα επειδή εκτός από στρατιωτική δύναμη, είχαν και τους νόμους, ο Λυκούργος θεωρείται απ' τους πρώτους νομοθέτες στην Ελλάδα, μετά ήρθε ο Δράκοντας και ο Σόλωνας ο Αθηναίος. Οι Μακεδόνες είναι ένα ενδιαφέρον παράδειγμα. Μέχρι τον 4ο αιώνα π.Χ. ήταν απλά αγρότες. Νωρίτερα τους υπέταξαν οι Πέρσες, μα αυτοί έστελναν μηνύματα για να βοηθήσουν τους υπόλοιπους Έλληνες (τα γράφει αναλυτικά ο Ηρόδοτος, που τον ξέρω σχεδόν απέξω). Ενδιαφέρον έχει και ο Ισοκράτης αλλά αυτόν πρέπει να τον ξαναδιαβάσω. Ο Φίλιππος αποφάσισε να κάνει ριζικές αλλαγές επειδή είχε πολιτικές φιλοδοξίες (ήθελε να γίνει Στρατηγός Αυτοκράτωρ των Ελλήνων, για να επιτεθεί στους Πέρσες). Άλλαξε τη διοίκηση της Μακεδονίας, οργάνωσε στρατό, κι έφερε φιλοσόφους για δασκάλους (δίδαξαν και τον Αλέξανδρο και άλλους). Και μετά ήρθε ο Αλέξανδρος που λίγο-πολύ θα έχεις υπόψη τι έκανε. Είτε πάρεις τους Αλβανούς, είτε τους Βλάχους, είτε τους Αρβανίτες, θα δεις ότι πέρασαν από μια περίοδο που ήταν απλά αγρότες. Οι Αλβανοί και οι Αρβανίτες διακρίθηκαν στη συνέχεια σαν στρατιώτες. Και είχαν κάποιους ηγέτες που ξεχώρισαν, πχ ο Σκεντέρμπεης (για μένα λέγεται Γιώργος Καστριώτης, άλλος μπορεί να τον λέει Κάστριοτ). Και ο Σκεντέρμπεης θεωρείται εθνικός ήρωας της Αλβανίας. Ίσως θα πρόσεξε ότι μάρκαρα ένα σημείο στο άρθρο του, ότι χρειάζεται επέκταση. Είχε μια γραμμή για την "κληρονομιά του", τις έκανα τρεις γραμμές, αλλά δεν είναι αρκετό. Καλύπτει, αρκετά σωστά, το άρθρο το τμήμα Σκεντέρμπεης ο πολεμιστής, αλλά έκανε και άλλα πράγματα στην Αλβανία. Δεν μπόρεσα να βρω όμως εκτενέστερες αναφορές. Βρήκα κάποιον ιστορικό που κυριολεκτικά βρίζει τον Σκεντέρμπεη αλλά δεν έγραψα ούτε μια γραμμή στο άρθρο, επειδή σέβομαι και τον Σκεντέρμπεη και τους Αλβανούς. Σκέψου το λίγο και αυτό. Κι έχω βρει αναφορές για τον τελευταίο αιώνα, για Αλβανούς ποιητές κτλ. Όλοι εξελίσσονται κι όλοι έχουν προσφέρει κάτι στον πολιτισμό.

Θα τα ξαναπούμε, +MATIA ☎ 23:54, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] the return

Να 'μαι πάλι! Δεν μπόρεσα να κρατηθώ, τρεις μέρες πλήρη αποχή μόνο. Συμφωνώ με τα περισσότερα απ' όσα είπες πάνω, αλλά δεν καταλαβαίνω για ποιές «εκπλήξεις» μιλάς. Θέλω να ξέρεις ότι όλα αυτά ήταν τυχαία. Τίποτα δεν ήταν σχεδιασμένο. Εσύ και ο Θεαθήναι έχετε μιλήσει για κάτι που μοιάζει με μια τεράστια αντιελληνική συνώμοσία. Όλα τα δήθεν «στημένα poll» ήταν τυχαία και το πρώτο επίσημο το ξεκίνησε ο Τόνυ στο Talk:Macedonian denar.

Έχω δει τα edits που έχεις κάνει στο Arvanites και Arvanitic language, και μ' αρέσουν πολύ Διαφωνώ με μερικά σημεία, αλλά θα μιλήσουμε για αυτά αργότερα.

Θέλω να συνεργαστούμε, και να μην «φωνάζουμε βρισιές» (αυτό συμπεριλαμβάνει και τον Θεαθήναι, μακάρι). Εξάλλου, δε διαφωνούμε σε πολλά.

Rex(talk) 23:47, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Βασικά αυτή θα είναι πιθανότατα και η απόφαση της ΑρμπΚομ. Εγώ, εσύ και ο Θεαθήναι θα είμαστε υπό επίβλεψη για να μη βρίζουμε (κάτι σαν αναστολή αν κατάλαβα καλά). Έμαθες και τα στημένα (αυτό που έγραψες στο λινκ). Που λες φίλε μου μπορεί να αποδειχθεί ότι το πολλ για την μετονομασία του άρθρου από Σλαβομακεδόνες σε εθνική ομάδα μοιάζει υπερβολικά προμελετημένο. Απέφυγα να το αποδείξω (για να μη σε επιβαρύνω παραπάνω) αλλά άμα μου ζητηθεί θα το κάνω. Είναι αυτή η παλιομνήμη μου που θέλει να θυμάται ένα σωρό ασήμαντα πράγματα.
Όσο αφορά τον Τόνυ, σε κάποια φάση ηρέμησα και είδα τα πράγματα αλλιώς για το μπλοκ μου (το δηνάριο που λες, δεν έχει καμία απολύτως σχέση - το είχα ξεχάσει τελείως). Πριν με μπλοκάρει τον είχα παρατηρήσει πολλές φορές και είναι απ'τους καλύτερους αντμίν, γι' αυτό πήγα και έγραψα εκείνο το σχόλιο στο RFC του. Όταν το υπέγραψες πήρα θάρρος, ήρθα και σου μίλησα για τους Αρβανίτες αλλά δυστυχώς πάλι δε συνενοηθήκαμε και θεώρησα ότι με κορόιδευες.
Μια άλλη "έκπληξη" ήταν που είπες ότι βρίζω τους Σλαβομακεδόνες στα ελληνικά - ενώ δεν είναι έτσι. Αλλά τέλος πάντων.
Η κόντρα σου με τον Θεαθήναι τραβάει πολύ πιο πίσω απ' τη δικιά μας διαφωνία και νομίζω σήμερα πια, μπορείς να παραδεχτείς κι εσύ ότι του την είχες μπει αρκετές φορές πολύ άσχημα. Επιμένω ότι πρέπει να του ζητήσεις συγνώμη κι εκείνου και να μην τον ξαναπείς εθνικιστή ή δε ξέρω τι άλλο (παρατήρησε ότι έγραψα στο workshop ότι μου είπες συγνώμη, αλλά δεν έγραψα ότι τον ξαναείπες εθν. μαζί με τη συγνώμη προς εμένα). Και μπορώ να σε διαβεβαιώσω ότι ο συνδυασμός Μανιάτη και Αρβανίτη είναι πολύ έντονος (δες εμένα που δεν έχω σχέση, πόσο το τράβηξα όταν δεν άντεξα άλλο τις προσβολές). Απ'την άλλη παρατήρησε ότι είμαστε και οι 3 wikiholics (έχουμε τουλάχιστον ένα κοινό σημείο λοιπόν).
Έγραψα, πριν από λίγο, κι ένα καλό σχόλιο και για σένα και για τον Θεαθήναι στον Φρεντ κι ελπίζω να το πάρει υπόψη. Η γενική ιδέα της προτεινόμενης απόφασης είναι ότι εμείς οι 3 δε θα πρέπει να κάνουμε προσωπικές επιθέσεις (μεταξύ μας ή σε άλλους).
Εδώ τριγύρω θα είμαι και θα τα ξαναπούμε, αν και με κουράζει πολύ η wp.
+MATIA ☎ 00:11, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Answer from User:Macedonian

Matia, I would suggest a constructive chat about the issue of Macedonia and EU. I would like to know the oppinion of a Greek person. I think we can leave our differences about the Macedonia issue for the other talk pages and use my talk page talking strictly about EU<>Macedonia issue. You are welcome to give any comments about the issue on my talk. But remeber... let's try to be constructive and have a nice chat and leave the arguing for the other talk pages. Macedonian(talk) 05:05, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

New comments added on my talk. Macedonian(talk) 05:21, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] a greek

Your IP is 84.254.3.47, isn't it? That's what you said above. I checked it at this webbsite http://www.geobytes.com/IpLocator.htm and I found that you are from Greece. Is that why you are taking out the truth about Albania and the Albanians? You shouldn't, I know that in Greece, they make you believe lies about Albania, but they arn't true. I am Albanian, I know about these things, I certenly know more than a greek. unsigned by 213.243.81.146 (talk · contribs)

WP:NPOV, WP:CITE, Help:Contents. Believe it or not, I don't write lies about Albania and I've edited and expanded various Albania related articles with respect to your people. I only edit under this account, I am Greek and no this is not my IP now (but if I said it was back then, then it was - but now it isn't). +MATIA ☎ 22:04, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I must have understood you wrong. Sorry. I just made a account. How do I add my name as a link and the date like you did. Lekë 22:23, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

with 4 ~ that is ~~~~ or hitting the 2nd button from the left. +MATIA ☎ 22:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

thank you, but I already did it. It was on the instructions I found about logging in. I just didn't know that that would be the reault. How do I add links to articles, make bold and italic letters? Lekë 22:30, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

You can do experiments at the Wikipedia:Sandbox (keep in mind that it is regularly "emptied"=deleted). Read Wikipedia:How to edit a page and check the other buttons up there too. You may also experiment at your user page that is User:Lekë or at your talk page (User_talk:Lekë). May I revert your changes at Arvanites? +MATIA ☎ 22:35, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

If you want to. Thank you for all your help and sorry for me saying you were lying. Lekë 22:38, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

No problem :)
+MATIA ☎ 22:41, 6 November 2005 (UTC)