User:Mattisse//Talk page

[edit] Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Starwood

Hello,

An Arbitration case involving you has been opened: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Starwood. Please add any evidence you may wish the arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Starwood/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Starwood/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, --Srikeit 00:59, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] To keep busy

One thing you could do is to start creating stubs for individual poets, like you did for Chamarasa. You could pick up names of famous poets from the literature section of Hoysala, Western Chalukya, Rashtrakuta, Western Ganga Dynasty. Whether you choose to write about Kannada or Sanskrit poets is up to you. When you have made a choise, just let me know and I will tell you if articles for them already exist or not so your effort wont be wasted. This will give me the impetus to expand on your stubs too. How's that sound? thanks.Dineshkannambadi 18:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Try to focus on Kannada poets for now.thanks.Dineshkannambadi 20:55, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I assumed you would go into the sub article like Hoysala literature where it is clearly marked Kannada or Sanskrit.Dineshkannambadi 21:11, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, names in Italics are the names of literary writings.thanks.Dineshkannambadi 21:12, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Why dont you just throw at me what you think are names of scholars and I shall validate or invalidate.thanksDineshkannambadi 22:45, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Can you work on Nagavarma I and Nagavarma II. I am especially interested in the later, a great poet. You will find him mentionde in Western Chalukya literature.thanksDineshkannambadi 00:47, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I understand your problem. Try working on Talakad. There are bunch of articles on the net for this interesting place.

Nothing in particular. The more info you can add, like the job you did on Banavasi, always helps.Dineshkannambadi 02:00, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Just explain each temple in the town article itself with as much info as possible. We can later add images for each if available. This place as a "whole" is interesting, but each temple indivudually is not that famous. I dont think I will be able to write as much about these temples as I did for Chennakesava Temple & Hoysaleaswara temple etc. Try to write up on the sand dunes also. I may have some images in my albums.Dineshkannambadi 03:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks.I will think of something by afternoon.thanksDineshkannambadi 16:34, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Do you want to work on Kannada Mathematician Rajaditya (citation #7 on Hoysala literature page). The reason I am emphasising on building Kannada poets database is because sometime in the future I want to work on Kannada literature page. There I want to touch upon all these topics and scholars.thanks.Dineshkannambadi 20:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

look at [1] at do a search there.Dineshkannambadi 20:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Do you want to start a page for Chitradurga Fort. If you do rad up on Chitradurga district Nayakas of Chitradurga to get a background. I plan to visit the fort this year and expand on the article.Dineshkannambadi 23:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

is you email ok now.?Dineshkannambadi 02:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

looks like it.Dineshkannambadi 03:32, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I saw it. still ways to go.thanks.Dineshkannambadi 22:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

. No, I meant untill Raul signs it of as FA, its not a FA. Though I dont see a reason for it not to be.Dineshkannambadi 23:24, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

We can address some of the issues in the FAC discussion by latest reviewer. One thing that will be difficult to address is the creation of new subheadings he mentioned.Dineshkannambadi 12:50, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I have replied on the FAC discussion. Please take a look. Yes we should not change the subheadings now unless absolutely necessary.thanks.Dineshkannambadi 13:07, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, fits in well in the Ancient City of Vijayanagara article along with the "naga worship" image at the bottom or some where on that page. What do you think. Generally, these reliefs are very commonly found in many Hindu temples (not trying to discourage you).Dineshkannambadi 14:54, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Take a look at Keladi Nayaka. These are also Vijayanagara era reliefs and the image is clearer (apart from the fact that I took the photograph:)).thanks.Dineshkannambadi 16:03, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I can look in my albums. Anyway, the parrot image should give them the idea, I think.Dineshkannambadi 16:27, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

In the Talakad page, the location of Talakad on the map is approximately 1500Kms off from excat location!!!. It should be in southern Karnataka, more specifically in Mysore district.thanks.Dineshkannambadi 19:47, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I have corrected the location more or less.Dineshkannambadi 19:52, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

sorry for what? Not an issue at all.thanks.Dineshkannambadi 21:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Have you seen the Vijayanagara FAC discussion. We got an "oppose". One reviewer does not like the citation format, just like you had talked about. But then, this was the format adviced in other FA's.Dineshkannambadi 03:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

This reviewer's concern has been with the format of the citations only (other than the image issue). But many of the reviewers are not Indians and this format has been accepted by some tough reviewrs like Tony1 who prescribed it. Please read the discussion page for my explanation.So now what. How will Raul react to this is the issue.Dineshkannambadi 06:18, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

See the latest remarks he has posted on the FAC discussion. Clearly his own views on citations.We need to treat carefully now. I will contact some of the reviewers.Dineshkannambadi 06:27, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chitradurga Fort

Thanks for this start. There are lots of unique things about this fort about which I shall find a book to write from.thanks.Dineshkannambadi 21:41, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Orphaned fair use image (Image:Rama records.jpg)

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[edit] AMA

You filed a case at the AMA. Do you still want an Advocate, or another Advocate? Geo. 18:16, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't know. I would have to discuss it with a potential Advocate first so I would have a "heads up" on what to expect. Sincerely, Mattisse 22:12, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

if you want I can give you a list of names of potential advocates. To learn what to expect you can read the Guide to Advocacy on the AMA page. Hope this helps, Geo. 02:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Would you like a list of names? Geo. 04:04, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that would help me much. I have not had good luck with AMA Advocates. You as the mediator of Starwood asked the now indefinitely banned User:999 to provide evidence to block me. The second Advocate refused to answer any of my emails. The third Advocate spread my name all over Wikipedia by publically asking now blocked sockpuppets their opinion of me before consulting with me about this strategy -- and continued in this behavior after being repeatedly warned by another AMA Advocate that this was an unwise strategy. Plus he did not heed my wishes to stop. He then withdrew without providing me with any feedback except to have a cup of tea. The Advocate that warned him to stop spreading my name around did "save" his Advocatee from a negative Arbitration ruling, but now his client is up on more sockpuppetry accusations --- so I'm not seeing what good AMA Advocacy does, except save bad people. Perhaps you can persuade me otherwise. However, your signature is still very confusing so I cannot post to you. And, allthough I have read the Guide to Advocacy in the past, I can't find it at the moment. And as I remember, it did not help me before. In fact, I was quite misled by it. So, what do you think? Is there hope that anything helpful would result? I think if a user has done something bad a good Advocate can get you out of trouble, but if you want to learn and receive feedback it is not helpful for that. Sincerely, Mattisse 04:29, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Better than I...

Thanks for the note. If you haven't yet, it is definitely worthwhile to read ragesoss' reponse to, and elabouration upon, my thinking. Jkelly 20:15, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

You reorg is fine. sorry I was out for a while. The only reason I mentioned that names of individual artists were not mentoined was to stress on the existance of corporate business and not individual enterprise.thanks.Dineshkannambadi 22:30, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Banditry? We all know about "Bandit Queen" of central India!! (she is no more ofcourse)Dineshkannambadi 22:45, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

outlaw is good enough I think?Dineshkannambadi 22:50, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Orphaned fair use image (Image:Talakad-mysore-shiva.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:Talakad-mysore-shiva.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable under fair use (see our fair use policy).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any fair use images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. This is an automated message from BJBot 23:36, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Embankment dam article

Embankment dams are all ready discussed in the article on dams. With your consent, I'd like to create a redirect for this topic to that section of the Dam article. Let me know. Thanks, --Zuejay 00:09, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, folks' lack of knowledge of certain topics can be very frustrating - I get particularly frustrated with the disambiguous description of embankment that's wants me to look at the article on slope which is really mostly just math, not engineering; however, since I don't have time to fix it right now, I just deal with it.
Perhaps, since you have extensive knowledge of dams, you can work to refine the dam article? If the embankment dam article is expanded beyond stub status, it can certainly remain. How about...hmmm... I'll add a note in the embankment dam section of the dam article that directs the user to the 'Main' embankment dam article? That should work for now, but the embankment dam article really will need to be expanded beyond stub status.
--Zuejay 01:10, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Western Chalukya

Western Chalukya "economy" looks good now. I need to add a couple of images. I have one for wall relief with women in dancing poses that looks good.Dineshkannambadi 00:44, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

All the reference you have used also points to Tamil websites or books about Tamils. This may have pointed the person to call them Tamil, while it may generally mean South Indian merchants. Neither of my two sources (Sastri or Thapar, p384) specifically give a language designation, but simply South Indian merchants.Dineshkannambadi 01:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

The article says they are now Tamil speaking. It does not mean they spoke Tamil in 9th century. People have moved around a lot in the last 1000 years, so I think we should keep language out of the article. My books clearly says they were from Aihole during the Chalukya times. Aihole is very much in north Karnataka.Dineshkannambadi 18:51, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the Dhangar link you added to Heggadde in Economy. My book says "inscriptions from karnataka" while mentioning Heggadde. Also Heggadde's are generally in coastal Karnataka even today while Dhangar's seemed to be located mostly in Maharashtra. Just to avoid confusion over castes etc.Not your fault.Dineshkannambadi 19:02, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I just completed a page on Rashtrakuta literature. Whatever little copyedit will do fine, given the nature of the contents.thanksDineshkannambadi 19:05, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I replied by email.thanks.Dineshkannambadi 19:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I have made a few changes to some of those merchant guild links. The more general we keep it, the better. The one that points to Kerela Jews is interesting.Dineshkannambadi 15:49, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I remember reading that oxen were used for land trade. Whole sale or hawked meant both locally and overseas, through contacts I suppose. I have not read of elephants being used to carry trade goods, though it is well known they were used for pulling lumber to rivers edge (I come from the state that has the highest elephant population-Karnataka).Dineshkannambadi 17:02, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article in need of cleanup - please assist if you can

[edit] Columns

I saw the link. This would be a really neat article. I have really some basic knowledge of columns in Karnataka but I can assure you there are several styles in Karnataka alone not to mention India and defnitely needs much more knowledge than I have about it now. But this is a topic I have considered studying. The topic is highly specialised. So what I plan to do is approach it more generally first by creating "architecture" pages for each kingdom I have worked/will work on. This way pillars will be mentioned in a section, as in Hoysala architecture. When I have satisfied myself that I have done basic justice to architecture, then I wil start getting more detailed, but all this takes time.Dineshkannambadi 14:45, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Please take a look at Hoysala architecture--LEAD. I added some info there based on automated peer review.Dineshkannambadi 16:36, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, please look at the Peer review "automated" response on Peer review discussion page. We need to find a box if there is one for architecture related pages.Dineshkannambadi 16:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hoysala architecture

Good question. There was very little influence from other religions at that time in Southern India. The Southern invasions of Mugals started towards the end of 13th century. Very few Hindu kingdom palaces prior to 17th century have survived. Palaces and forts as we have learnt in our FA articles were the worst to suffer during invasions. No Hoysala palace has survived. They also built some fine stepped wells, the one at Hulikere is in good condition but I have not visited this place. Perhaps we can simply mention this stepped well as an example.Dineshkannambadi 18:21, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually the article was reorganised about a month back based on your recommendation. Never-the-less if you have any further ideas, this is as good a time as any. I dont think we should worry about time line because this reorg could be a part of peer review.Dineshkannambadi 18:33, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I feel basic elements has more to do with structural elements rather than religious iconification. However, it is indirectly a part of sculpture.Dineshkannambadi 19:06, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I believe diety dedication was under basic elements earlier. But you had recommended that it be brought out. So thats what we did.thanksDineshkannambadi 20:45, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I looked back to an older version, and "Dedication" was outside basic elements and "deities" was inside. We brough out deities and combined with dedication with some rewording.thanks.Dineshkannambadi 20:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Its nobody's fault. Just suggestions and changing impressions. Feel free to move the deity dedication paragraph into where you feel appropriate. We can always change anything as we go along. Nothing is hard and fast.thanks.Dineshkannambadi 23:11, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

India was entirely Hindu (with various versions and excepting the forest dwellers who held their own animistic beliefs) upto about 500 BCE (Hindisum itself finds its roots in the Indus Vally civilization of 3000-2000 BCE). Buddhism and Jainsim were born in India around 500BCE and by 500AD, some historians predict that nearly half of polulation had taken up Buddhism and Jainism. Later due to new emerging flexible Hindu philosophies (that we went thru in the FA's), Buddhism and Jainsim lost its appeal. But Hinduism itself had been influenced by Buddhism and Jainism to a significant extent. So by 13th century, vast majority were back to Hinduism. Then came Islam and later Christianity into India.Just a real brief. I may be off a bit in numbers.Dineshkannambadi 02:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it has to satisfy both the India specialist with basic info on architecture (which we have given) and hopefully convey some useful info to an non-Indian who is interested in learning.Dineshkannambadi 02:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The bottom of the article seems to be crumpled up. How do we set that right?Dineshkannambadi 02:43, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I have added a few lines about Jain temples built by Hoysalas and about their stepped wells. I need to add a citation for stepped wells which I will. My book by Foekema gives a beautiful picture of the well, but unfortunately I cant use it here. I will add an image of a Jain temple or something to that effect today. Yesterday you asked me about secular structures, well at that time, the word secular meant Vaishnava-Shaiva secularism. I explained why in one of my earlier messages. The article as of yesterday has been given a B grade on the discussion page. Can you look out for redundant words and British-American spellings. I have identified a few and changed.thanks.Dineshkannambadi 14:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes Buddhism virtually made an exit into China/ SE Asia by end of first mille. I am aware of some of the minor cults like Saktaism etc but not much is written about them as they were not really popular. Vaishnava and Shaiva sects of Hindusim and Jaina religion are the 3 main topics from the 10-12th century time.Dineshkannambadi 15:47, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Just occured to me. I bet we will be expected to provide a neat sketch indicating the various parts of the temple structure. Just providing relevant pictures will not cut it.Dineshkannambadi 16:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Makara means beast (imaginery) and Torana is roughly equivalent to a mistletoe, except religious in nature and comprises of sacred leaves tied into a garland. This torana is hung on the wall just above the door in the entrance of most Hindu homes. Makaratorana similarly is an ornamentation on stone that decorates the doorway . A devotee entering into a Hoysala temple walks under the Makaratorana while entering the mantapa.(hall)Dineshkannambadi 23:17, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

That Jagati be combined with Temple complex

That Pillars be compined with Mantapa

Reply-->Actually whn I had asked the opinion of a senior wikipedian at one time, he had said "explain all the salient feature independently and in the same order it is explained in the general overview section". Reason: These are very short sections Reply Why dont we try to expand on this. Pillars can be expanded without too much effort. I will do this.

Maybe Research notes could be made into a History section that would be the first section in the article. Maybe Architects could be woven into that. Reply-->that was how it was long back (2 months). Myself and KNM moved it down because of the advice we got from a wikipedian.

In short, I am not sure which is ok and which is not, to be honest.Dineshkannambadi 00:29, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

You a right. The four line paragraph on Jagati looks awful.I will try to dog up some info on this one. The problem is architecture is a very specific topic and hence tough to handle. Dineshkannambadi 00:39, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Let me post a note to user:Nichalp first and see what he says.Dineshkannambadi 00:42, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

How about Jagati and mantapa and Pillars and sculptures as combined sections.Dineshkannambadi 00:43, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes we are in uncharted territory alright. But this is a good start. Not too many have tried this.Dineshkannambadi 00:51, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

well, the Mantapa sits on a Jagati, the pillars support the mantapa interior. Chicken-and-egg.

No need to save a copy. We can try your idea and see how it looks. BTW i have left a message for Nichalp. Maybe we should wait?Dineshkannambadi 01:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

We could selectively include "inline citation" information into the main article to increase content if required. As far as providing basic information to the reader, I really doubt we can get more basic and convey the meaning.Dineshkannambadi 01:12, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Make it understandable to the world, yes. But within reason. An eclectic culture with an ancient history - If we get too basic, the article is just another blog site.thanks.Dineshkannambadi 01:41, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Sure. Lets see what reviews we get and we can go from there. Generally people who want to read on architecture/History are not the unspohisticated types (though I have suffered greatly at the hands of those few exceptions who see it with political motive-disruptive users). In the FA's I think we have provided significant links, bracketed meanings etc to give the reader an opportunity to make an effort to read in detail.I know it has been an uphill task for you to help with edits, create stubs, clarify meanings, create links and learn about in India in the midst of all this while its easy for me to write without blinking an eyelid. A few years from now when you have become more familiar with India/India topics, you will be thinking more like me - meaning "lets provide the details".!!thanks.Dineshkannambadi 02:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The Temple deities section in Hoysala architecture needs more citations. I will add it tonight.thanks.Dineshkannambadi 13:52, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

We can continue to copyedit Western Chalukyas for now and cleanup ni the background.I have been working no its citations. Normally the peer review (Hoysala arch) goes on for a couple of weeks after which it gets archived. At that point we can move or not move Hoysala architecture to FA review depending on how we feel. I dont think we should bump the article simply because of slow/low feedback. No, I have not received any feed back from Nichalp. Perhaps I can ping someone else. maybe user:deeptrivia. Tony1 I felt was a bit rough on Hoysala empire (I know he is good though). The option of moving Western Chalukyas to Peer review after Hoysala arch peer review gets archived is also open. At the end of the day, even if Hoysala arch does not become FA, we should work for a GA tag atleast. That will be a good start. Can you look for American-British spellings and make them all British on Hoysala arch? Feel free to add ^{[citation needed]} tags where you deem necessary. ThanksDineshkannambadi 15:16, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] re:How do you find past AMA's that were open?"

I had one that was open but I have no idea where it is or what the status is now. Also, I was named in a previous one and I do not know where that one is either or whether I am being accused of things there. (I only found out by accident that I was named.) There seems to be no way to find these, or I am missing the way on you AMA page menu? Thanks in advance for you help. My new Advocate has not been contacting me by email so I would appreciate some sort of update. Sincerely, Mattisse 01:29, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I've changed the status of your case from "Open" to "Under Investigation" as I familiarize myself with the case... and as you probably know, this is a -very- involved case. I'm almost finished reading through all of the material and consulting with the other Advocates who were involved. Once that is finished, I'll be able to go over with you the pertinent points that I feel need to be addressed for my better understanding, and then go over what you wish to get out of Advocacy. I'll be in contact soon. אמר Steve Caruso _(desk/AMA) • Give Back Our Membership! 01:57, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] re:Where is my case?

How can I find the page for myself? How can I get answers to any questions? I want to find out how I got named with the sockpuppets. This is how I received notification of my sockpuppets: [2] I am about to file a Request for Arbitration against the user to labelled me as soon as I can figure out how. I will file something tomorrow. He will not answer my requests. Sincerely, Mattisse 02:06, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

As I mentioned before, your case is filed under "Under Investigation" on our main page WP:AMA (scroll down to the bottom). If you don't see it, here's link directly to the category (yours is the only case in the category) Category:AMA_Requests_for_Assistance/Under_investigation. I apologize if my explanation was vague. The namings for sockpuppetry were most likely due to another party (I would guess 999) posting a notice to the WP:ANI, but I would need time to dig things up. Administrators who are completely removed from the situation, if given a list of apparently cogent criteria will act upon them. In some cases mistakes are made due to the person who filed on WP:ANI stretching the criteria enough (in a sense falsifying a report) to make it look as if the editor in question has committed a wrong when they indeed haven't. This is always a possibility.

As for your Request for Arbitration: Please take what I am about to tell you sincerely and to the heart: I have extensive knowledge about how the Arbitration Committee works, how much time the Arbitrators have in working with cases (they are volunteers, afterall), and what makes a case something that the Arbitration Committee is likely to accept. If you file an Arbitration directly against the user that labeled you (who is most likely an admin who was simply responding to a convincing WP:ANI report) without attempting to resolve it first with them, the person who prompted them, or through mediation (formal or informal), then the case will not get through The Dispute Resolution Process on Wikipedia works if you give it the proper amount of weight, time and effort, and in the end is far less stressful, judgemental, and less likely to impact you on a more long-term basis than ArbCom. As an editor in a bind, your best plan of action is to find a way to prevent these problems from escalating to the next notch in the process and resolve them amicably to the betterment of all parties involved as well as Wikipedia, itself.

As I stated before, I will be in touch as soon as I can. There is a lot that I must do to understand exactly what's going on and I, like every other editor on Wikipedia, am also a volunteer trying my best to help. אמר Steve Caruso _(desk/AMA) • Give Back Our Membership! 03:20, 11 February 2007 (UTC)