Talk:Matrimandir

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[edit] Crystal

What is the identity of the "world's largest crystal" enclosed within the shrine? Quartz, Topaz, etc?

According to several seemingly legitimate sites, the "crystal" is actually a "crystal-glass globe"; this link includes a picture. If that's true, Wikipedia's article is probably the result of a poor translation. To be fair, however, it's common to call leaded glass items "crsytal" in English, too. -- Hadal 02:50, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] non-NPOV material

I have removed the following material from the article

The reason for doing so is as follows

  • The the Matacom Website represents the opinion of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet (it is maintained either by her or one of her followers), and is only one point of view (an extreme minority one) regarding the construction of the Matrimadir. So it is not NPOV
  • In any case posting a long block of text like this is a copyright violation.
  • Ms Norelli-Bachelet has also made rather extreme claims about her own spiritual attainment (that she is an avatar equal to [[Sri Aurobidno and the Mother) that (with only one exception on auroconf) no-one takes seriously)
  • I went to the trouble of checking on auroconf, asking people who really were involved with the construction of the Matrimandir, and the uninanomous consensus of everyone at Auroville was that all of these charges are groundless. Also everyone there spoke of the very intense experiences they have had while meditating in the Matrimandir. If the temple was not built according to plane, it would surely be less likely they would have such experiences
  • there is no evidence for misrepresnetation of Sri Aurobindo's symbol; if you look at the original sources (The Agenda (Mother)) you will discover that in fact the way the Matriomandir was built, and Sri Aurobindo's symbol was built, is the same as the Mother instructed
  • ditto the matter of pillars etc - they have been built exactly as described in The Agenda
  • I also wrote to one person who was involved in the details of the construction of Matrimandir, and he will be presenting evidence (which I will post on my website) proving that the Matrimandir has been built completely according to the Mother's instructions
  • When I have this information posted on my website, I can write something on wikipedia covering the controversy, with references to the appropriate links. Until then I won't, as as Wikipedia is not a fotrum for original research
  • to show that i am interested in both sides of the argument, i have also corresponded with one of Ms Norelli-Bachelet followers and I found her to be a sincere and genuine person. This does not prove that the guru is sincere (nor does it disprove it, in any case I have my own opinion on this), but it shows that (some of) the student(s) are sincere.

M Alan Kazlev 8 July 2005 14:46 (UTC)

[edit] non-NPOV material copied from Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet website

The Matrimandir and its Disfigurement

Matrimandir is for our Age what the Great Pyramid of Giza was for the Egyptians. It was to be the greatest feat of sacred architecture the world had ever seen but owing to the unconsciousness of Her followers this sacred temple was never built. What stands in its place in Auroville today is a Shadow of the Mother's vision, and a perversion of the Vedic truth that it represents.

The following is an introduction to the Matacom Website ( http://www.matacom.com ) where you will find a complete account of the deformation of the Mother's Temple and what it was to represent in our present age.

Manifesto

'…But you know, I do not believe in external decisions. I believe simply in one thing: the force of the Consciousness that makes a PRESSURE like this [crushing gesture]. And the Pressure is increasing…Which means that it will sort out the people.' (The Mother, Matrimandir Dialogues, 17.1.1970.)


On this day, 17 January, thirty-three years ago, the Mother left the fate of her extraordinary feat of yogic seeing to the Divine Consciousness, trusting that it would 'sort out the people' who could materialise her special vision of the Matrimandir's inner chamber.

Over these thirty-three years anyone who has come forward in answer to this call and in defence of the Mother's vision and original plan, has met a stone wall, a refusal even to sit together and discuss the issues involved. Meanwhile construction work went on and the chamber was completely disfigured. Yet it was claimed all along that it was being built 'according to the original'.

This atmosphere of falsehood has reached a culmination. The very heart of Sri Aurobindo and the Mother's work The and message was unacceptably disfigured in the Matrimandir when the so-called crystal and stand were set in place. The symbolism of the executing architects' version presents exactly the opposite of the 'sense' the Mother insisted should be respected of her vision. When she insisted on a translucent globe rather than transparent, it was in order that the symbol could bear witness to the Vedic essence of their mission for the world. She stated emphatically that, 'It is all symbolic,' yet the architects deliberately ignored her commands and had a transparent crystal fashioned in Germany in place of the symbolically crucial translucent globe.


Further, the Mother stated that she 'saw' the pedestal with Sri Aurobindo's symbols (four) carved in stone. This too was deliberately and knowingly ignored by the architects and builders. Instead of stone they have created a 'stand' in see-through wrought iron, plated in gold. Nothing of this forms a part of the Mother's original vision, though time and again she insisted, 'But this is what I SAW!'

These, and indeed the entire room, have been altered, though the administration claims that what is built is 'according to the original'. Because of this misrepresentation and its consequences for the Mother's work, the MATRIMANDIR ACTION COMMITTEE has been formed.


Devotees, disciples, donors have all been fooled over the years. They have contributed time, money, energy to construct a 'shadow' of the original, revised according to 'mental ideas', as the Mother warned,


'We will let it sort itself out. Because you see, to accept changes it is necessary that I be certain that the origin of the inspiration is of the same quality as mine…for the building, I know very well that people are needed who know their job and who do the work. But for the inspiration it is necessary that I be certain that the origin of the inspiration be AT LEAST of the same level as mine… And I am not sure, because I saw it so clearly. And immediately with Paolo's ideas I saw the mixture. His ideas are all mental, I can guarantee it because it is easy for me to see that. Well, they bring the same MIXTURE that there is in everything that is done in the world. And that…what is the use in beginning again, again, again…?' (Ibid)


In spite of her clear instructions and even entreaties, and having no one to defend her position in this important issue (all supported the architects, then and now), once she put out this call the Divine Consciousness did indeed 'sort out the people' who could build HER vision; while, on the other hand, the Auroville construction was taken up by men and women incapable not only of understanding sacred geometry and the special symbolism involved, but also lacking the yogic poise that would have permitted them to repose complete faith in the Mother's wisdom in matters well beyond their level of comprehension. Her superior yogic capacity to SEE, to receive the SHRUTI, was entirely disregarded by the architects, builders, and the disciples who were involved in this most important of all the Mother's yogic discoveries. To this day those who are in charge of Auroville have not revealed any capacity to bear witness to the Mother's extraordinary yogic feat. Instead of respect and devotion, the architects and builders have introduced those 'mental' changes, which are now attributed to the Mother herself.

If the revisions had been made public from the very beginning the situation would be less grave. Apart from all else, it is the deception that is serious cause for concern. Why must we, all of us who have vibrated to the original vision and responded to the call, accept the architects' egos as the central symbol of the Chamber in place of the Mother's perfectly poised and integrating soul-power? For this is the difference between her design and what has been built in its place.

What has been set in place in the Matrimandir as 'the Mother's original', describes in symbol form the ego and not the soul.

The time has come for all who have experienced the truth of the Mother's original vision to come forward and expose the reigning falsehood and to demand a reinstatement of the original plan, supported by the Mother's own words to help in the construction of as perfect a reproduction of her vision as is humanly possible.

This Manifesto spells out the objectives of MAC and invites all sincere believers in the Mother's original vision to join hands in this noble endeavour.

It is said that nothing can be done at this point since the shadow-temple is finished and cement and steel now stand in the way of any rectification. This solidity now renders meaningless even any exposure, it is claimed.

We state emphatically that the divine Word, the Shruti, is greater and more powerful than cement and steel. It alone will live on while the shadow-temple fades into oblivion, having been rendered irrelevant by the activities of this Committee. For to quote the Mother,

‘…these are the things men do; they do it more or less well, and then it lives, and then it dies, and then it changes, and then it becomes deformed, and then… - everything they have done. It is not worth it… I LOOK…isn’t it so? Someone gives me a paper as you have just done when you gave me that drawing [the architect’s revisions]; I look in this way and I see very well what in that paper is the result of something from above and what has become mixed and what is… Like that. But one is not going to say it! To begin with, they would not believe me.’ (Ibid)


We, founders of the Matrimandir Action Committee, set our agenda to be:

1) To expose the falsehood surrounding the constructed Matrimandir in that it is being passed off as ‘the Mother’s original’; to reveal the discrepancies between that true original and what has been constructed at Auroville.

2) To expose the campaign of deception that the builders and presiding authorities of Auroville have been engaging in for the past 30 years to cover up the fact that what has been constructed is entirely the architects’ revised version.

3) To ensure that the Sri Aurobindo Ashram Trust substantiates this true position, since it has the duty to preserve the Mother’s estate, and that records in the Ashram Archives include the complete history by way of original tapes, plans, etc., as well as the material the Matrimandir Action Committee will place at the Trust’s disposal for posterity, which will prove the conspiracy to deceive on the part of those in charge over the years and their refusal to listen to those qualified to give an opinion in these matters.

4) To highlight by articles, books, websites through the electronic media, and all other means of diffusion, the value of the Mother’s vision and the place it holds in Sri Aurobindo’s work as the most valuable legacy the Mother has left to humanity, comparable in importance to Sri Aurobindo’s Savitri. And in the process to expose through these media the truth about the architects’ revised version.

We, of Matrimandir Action Committee in India and throughout the world, will hold responsible and take to task anyone from 1970 to the present who has been instrumental in what has happened to the Mother’s yogic vision. This includes the Government of India that now owns Auroville, the Ministry for Human Resources Development and the Department of Education; the Governing bodies of Auroville with their presiding officials and appointed members; the architects and builders. They are all accountable to the people since they have been and continue to be party to the disfigurement and the deception involving the Mother’s sacred inspired Word, the divine Shruti of a new vedi.

Signed this day, 17 January 2003, at Skambha by the Founding Members of MAC

The complete story of the deformation of the Mother’s sacred Temple may be found at http://www.matacom.com

--

[edit] Neutral Point of View

to User: M Alan Kazlev|M Alan Kazlev I have put mention of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet's work back on this site. It is written in a NPOV (Neutral Point of View) style. This is factual information. Why should readers not have access to this VIEW? It is a significant VIEW regarding the Matrimandir. It is a significant controversy. Just because some people would rather not admit there is this very real controversy underway, why does that mean readers can't have access to both sides of the controversy, rather than just to deny all.

With regard to this statement: "Ms Norelli-Bachelet has also made rather extreme claims about her own spiritual attainment (that she is an avatar equal to [[Sri Aurobidno and the Mother) that (with only one exception on auroconf) no-one takes seriously)" made below. That is an opinion. Norelli-Bachelet's books are now being sold in Pondicherry and there are plenty of people who find her claims credible. Who are you to judge whether this woman's claims should be taken seriously and reviewed by a larger audience. Really the truth is that someone is claiming to be continuing Sri Aurobindo and the Mother's work, and THAT alone is fact, that alone should be noted. Who cares if you believe it or not? Who are you to try to control whether or not people see her side of the story? You can present your side. FINE. But you have no right to block the fact of Patrizia's work on this matter. She has been involved with the temple since 1973, perhaps some people are interested in what she has to say. You have no right to edit this important information off this page, just because you do not subscribe to its validity. User:Lori Tompkins

Hi Lori. To answer your concerns:
(1) the Matrimandir design. I was originally for many years very sympathetic to PNB, ever since seeing her claim in the Aeon book, and not knowing the other side of the argument. But I discussed this (and in fact for a while argued PNB's case, which certainly put me in the minority!) with people on Auroconf by people who were actually there at the time, also I have corresponded with one guy who was involved in every stage of the construction. Moreover, I have checked the original Agenda material that according to PNB "proves" that the Matrimandr was not built according to the Mother's instructions, and could find no evidence in the Agenda that the original plan laid out by the Mother was any different to the Matrimandir building.
(2) PNB's claims being considered credible - not on auroconf. For me to say no-one on auroconf takes her claims seriously is not my opinion, as it can be confirmed, by either inquiring there yourself, or checking the mail list archives. But as i cannot speak for the rest of the Sri Aurobindo community, I concede that that sentence was badly worded.
(3) PNB's books sold at Pomdicherry. Sure, but what does that prove?
(4) PNB carrying on the Mother's work. I have already acknowledged this. If you go to the page on the Mother you will find that I have included PNB in the list of important disciples. If you find my wording there is inaccurate or biased, I encourage you to edit it so it is more NPOV
(5) I really have no problem with the edits you made to the Matrimandir page. In fact it seems very well written and I for obne consider it enhances the page. So I don't know what the fuss here is about, other than to have a rant at me because you feel your guru has been slighted.
In fact, I have noticed the same tendency in arguments between supporters and opponents of controversial gurus elsewhere - e.g. Sai Baba, Da Free John, etc. People would rather rant and rave at each other, than discuss their concerns as reasonable adults. As you as a student of Sri Aurobindo and the Mother (and I am assuming you are, even if PNB is your Guru) well know, this is a result of an over-active vital, rather than true guidance from the psychic being. I have seen this time after time. And I have seen how much pointless antagonism it causes on both sides.
So if you can present PNB's teachings from an NPOV, I have no problem with that. My only concern is that the other side of the case be presented as well. This is what we are trying to do with the Sai Baba article, although it is very difficult because supporters and opponents of Sai Baba are at each other's throats, and have been for a very long time. See Talk:Sathya Sai Baba, including the archives.
In my original brief write-up on PNB I tried to genuinely present both sides of the case. Since then, more material has been added, and the page is quite favourable to PNB. If this current page, or any related page, is not sufficiently NPOV I welcome your input. The role of wikipedia however is not to prove the blamelessness of a controversial guru, or to prove their guilt either. It is simply to report what notable sources from both or all sides say, without making dogmatic statements of its own. Please see Wikipedia policies and guidelines
Finally, I have placed our conversation at the bottom of the page, so everythiung can be in chronological order, otherwise it is confusing following the discussion of this page.
M Alan Kazlev 22:11, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Alan,

I am just tired of people editing her out of these pages concerning Sri Aurobindo, the Mother, the Matrimandir... that is what the fuss is about. If you let this side of the story be expressed in the appropriate pages, then I will not be antagonistic. You presented her work as something not to be taken seriously and that is hard for me not to react to. I do understand that most do not get the connection between her work and Sri Aurobindo's and the Mother's, and a lot of that is just the reality of what people can or can't digest of her work, but I also know that there has been a repression and animosity towards her work. When I visited Pondicherry in 2000, I did not know of PNB and after 2 weeks there, and constantly being in bookstores and in the Ashram and such, there was no word of the important claims of PNB. The fact that her books are now in bookstores in Pondicherry says a lot in my view. There are people there who want to put her work forward, rather than destroying copies as was done with 2000 copies of "The New Way, Volumes 1&2" which detail the distortions of the Matrimandir (which would be a good read for you if you want more to go on in deciding that her claims about the dimensions of the Matrimandir are false).

When I left Pondicherry, I "happened" to travel to Kodaikanal in my journey (where PNB went to livea after leaving the Ashram in 1980), and then "happened" on "The Gnostic Circle" back in San Francisco a month later, stunned to find that there was a continuation of the work, and amazed that no one had mentioned this in Pondicherry. After many years of studing the Supramental Descent of the Mother and Sri Aurobindo and doing my own yoga, to me the continuity of her work with theirs was clear.

I have some sympathy for those to who this connection is not clear. One of course cannont force these things. I continually struggle with how I put forth these concerns, because I know how important these issues are, and PNB once repremanded me, "you cannot harrange people". Every one has their roles and each plays his part in the unfolding Truth of Being ... I do wish more would understand the Beauty of what is being offered in PNB's work. It seems a tragedy to me, but meanwhile, that is just the way it is, for now.

Another thing you'll notice that I added to the page was that the Matrimandir Action Committee's concerns, have been accepted into the Archive departments of both the Ashram and in Auroville. These are not small accomplishments and reflect the growing reality that people are either taking PNB's claims more seriously or at least agreeing to present the claims on fair ground for all to see. I think it is good progress for all concerned. Thank you for your gracious reply.

User:Lori Tompkins


Hi Lori
thanks for replying and clarifying things.
I agree that PNB has some interesting things to say, although i cannot accept her avatar claims, but that's just me. And it's good that you're able to write up about what she is saying on wikipedia.
Although I always try to look at both sides as honestly and fairly as i can; inevitably (if one is not sufficently familar with the subject) one will be swayed by a majority opinion. I certainly don't want to be closed-minded towards PNB. I do need to one day get hold of and read the New Way books.
my original objection re the PNB material on the Matrimandir page was that it was such a large body of text that I felt it was overwhelming the otherwise very stubby page (this was the text i moved to this Talk page). Perhaps this text can be put up on a separate wikipage. i think the edits you've made to the page are excellent though.
I just started a new category page Category:Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet, so you can link all the PNB pages there. Also feel free to edit that page however you want
re your PNB template, I would be surprised if it's wiki policy to include external links in a wiki template. But what you can do is write a wiki page on each topic, and have the external links there. e.g. a wikipage on each of the books, on the MAC, etc. The "Important Articles" links should probably go in the links section on the most approprate wikipage.
best regards
M Alan Kazlev 01:28, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Alan, good suggestions. Lori


[edit] Abuse claims

I added this which is shocking to conscience: Called the giant golden golf ball, The Matrimandir is surrounded by carefully manicured lawns, where visitors are allowed only by special appointment. A place where there were no rules, no leaders and no money, children are sexually exploited.news.bbc.co.uk, Indian town's sex abuse claims It was finished only in 2008, for the 40th anniversary. In 1968 the original plan was for a city of 50,000, but today, only 2,000 people live there, two thirds of them Westerners. Aurovillians receive a small maintenance grant, partly from the Indian government, but they are obliged to work daily for few hours. A middle-aged Frenchman called Gilles stated that: "They are allowed to get away with whatever they like, including paying our children to have sex with them, and we are powerless to complain." However, Auroville employs 4000 people, runs schools for local children and had reforested large barren areas.news.bbc.co.uk, Local concerns over Indian utopia --Florentino floro (talk) 11:31, 24 May 2008 (UTC)