Talk:Matilda of Boulogne

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[edit] Biography assessment rating comment

WikiProject Biography Assessment

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 14:44, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Barely a Start class.

[edit] Title

Shouldn't this article's title be Matilda I of Boulogne? There was another sovereign countess of Boluogne called Matilda (please correct me if I am wrong)87.250.113.209 (talk) 18:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. JPG-GR (talk) 04:09, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Move or Don't move followed by reason and ~~~~

  • Move Queen Matilda was Matilda I of Boulogne because one of her successors was Matilda II of Boulogne. Surtsicna (talk) 14:05, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Don't move. This Matilda was Queen of England, and if we are going to use a title, we should use that one; but she was called Matilda of Boulogne, in distinction from the Empress. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:56, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Move Matilda of Boulogne is fine for her status as a Queen consort but the renaming clarifies she was also a sovereign. Dimadick (talk) 12:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Dont move Commonly used name. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:33, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

  • Septentrionalis, the conventions say that deceased female royal consorts should be called "{{Name}} of {{Father's realm}}". That's why Henry VIII's first wife is called Katherine of Aragon, not Queen Katherine of England. This woman, however, was a monarch (not just a consort).
    • If you had read more carefully what I helped to write, you would have found that the "maiden name rule", that rule of thumb, is not consensus, and there are many arguments against it; it should not be followed against usage, as WP:NCNT also says. Still less should this new conjectural rule be imposed against usage. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:50, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
    • In particular Katherine of Aragon is what English-speakers usually call her. The maiden name rule is an effort to generalize that (and other examples of usage) to make a consistent system; there has never been consensus how far to extend this generalization. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:24, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll quote the conventions: "European monarchs whose rank was below that of King (e.g., Grand Dukes, Electors, Dukes, Princes), should be at the location "{Monarch's first name and ordinal}, {Title} of {Country}". Examples: Maximilian I, Elector of Bavaria, Jean, Grand Duke of Luxembourg." Other examples: Jeanne II, Countess of Burgundy, and Albert II, Prince of Monaco. I don't like this rule - I think we should treat all monarchs equally, but I respect the coventions.

Since this woman was merely a queen consort due to her marriage to Stephen of England, we can't call her "Queen Matilda of England". It's also incorrect to call her simply "Matilda of Boulogne", because she was a sovereign countess of Boulogne whose successor was Matilda II. Surtsicna (talk) 11:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I did a quick check of my books on the time frame, and how they index her.
  • Oxford Dictionary of National Biography - Matilda or Matilda of Boulogne
  • Huscroft's Ruling England - Matilda of Boulogne
  • Chibnall's Anglo-Norman England - Matilda, wife of Stephen
  • Bartlett's England Under the Norman and Angevin Kings - Matilda of Boulogne
  • Matthew's King Stephen - oddly, she's not listed in the index, but looking up "Stephen, family of" got me Matilda of Boulogne on page 81.
  • Crouchs' The Reign of King Stephen - Matilda, countess of Boulogne and Lens, queen of England.
  • Davis' King Stephen (3rd ed) - Matilda of Boulogne
  • Poole's Domesday Book to Magna Carta - Matilda of Boulogne
  • Barlow's Feudal Kingdom of England - Matilda of Boulogne
  • Appleby's The Troubled Reign of King Stephen - Matilda of Boulogne
Ealdgyth - Talk 13:33, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Napoleon is commonly reffered to as either Napoleon or Napoleon Bonaparte. However, en.wiki calls him Napoleon I of France, according to the conventions. Surtsicna (talk) 20:30, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
And it is very likely that we should not. That decision has been, and should be, controversial; compare WP:OTHERSTUFF. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:20, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.