Talk:Math rock

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Contents 1 Older comments 2 Jethro Tull?? 3 multiple points 4 about q and not u 5 Share the knowledge 6 your band 7 correction needed 8 No Means No 9 Brazilian bands 10 Emo 11 Philo Beddow 12 DAve Brubeck 13 System Of A Down 14 Tool reference 15 Tool and others 16 math? 17 sources? 18 Prog Rock 19 Blind Idiot God 20 Don Cab POV 21 shall the Fibbonacis be considered math rock? 22 Badagani, stop with the original research 23 Incorrect edit

[edit] Older comments

I just found out about "Math Rock" today when I was playing my band, Planet 22, for a friend. After all these years I finaly know our genre. See for yourself: http://www.geocities.com/rjs121576/planet22.html

the times are: "Mr. Happy" : starts with 4/4 but starts dropping in measures of 10/4. The middle part is 6/8 and then back to 4/4. In part 2 the times go from 10/4 to 11/4 a few times followed by a middle part where the drums, keyboards, and sax play 11/4, while the bass(me) and guitar play 11/4 for a 110 beat polyrythym.

"Muffin jugs" : A funk song, the bridges have measures of 5/4 and 3/4 thrown in. The middle part is all 5/4 Check out the bass knob volume fade ins

"Mushrooms on the Wall pt. 2" : College age guys, our friend threw a mushroom from his pizza on the wall and it stayed stuck there for weeks, yuck! This song is based on the circle of fifths, starting in G#. The bridge or "B" part alternates between major and minor. The time slips in the third bridge followed by 5/4, and 3/4, resolving at the end to 4/4. "Mushrooms on the wall pt. 1" : this one starts with 8 beats and subtracts a beat each measure. the "B" part is a Cmajor 6/8 theme I often use, it can be played against most music in C including Beethoven 9-4. The middle part of this song goes from 4/4 to 4/4>3/4>4/4>3/4 to 3/4 to 6/8 to 5/4

"Mushrooms on the wall pt. 3+4" : the first part are 20 beat cycles where every other 20 beats the instruaments alternate between 4 5/4's, 5 4/4's, or 6 3/4's+ 1 2/4 the final section starts in 4/4 where the guitar and bass remain, after a few turns the drums and sax start dropping beats, so each time through they are synchopated in a different way until on the 4th shift they are back in time with the bass and guitar. Check out the bass knob volume fade ins.

skip some other songs down to "take jack" for a good 5/4 jam

Take Care... Joe www.degicank.com

Why don't you call it Mathal - mathematic metal?

I don't see how anyone would consider "Q and Not U" math rock. That's like an insult to Don Caballero and Slint.

I'm not sure, but I've also heard people describe progressive rock and metal bands such as Rush and Tool to be "math rock"

[edit] Jethro Tull??

Did Jethro Tull use mixed meters? I don't know the group's music well but have never associated them (like I do Rush) with complex or changing meters. Whoever made this edit, can you explain which Jethro Tull song(s) feature this? Badagnani 05:49, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

• • I didn't make that (or any edit on this page) but Jethro Tull definitely does some math rock. Check out Thick as a Brick. It is written as one continuous song (except for the break to flip the record) and uses tons of different time signatures. I'll leave it to everyone else as to whether this is truly "math rock" but I think it fits the minimum metric definition.12.30.156.36 19:21, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] multiple points

i'd just like to point out that the purpose of this article is to explain the style of the music that was developed by a group of musicians in the 90s and were tagged with such a label. as is the same for grunge, emo, punk, whatever. the article shouldnt be about all and any bands that just "sound mathy." people should stop adding their friends bands or their own bands to the lists.

about sleepytime gorilla muesum: they definitely do have technical tendencies, but were not really cited or noted as a band essential to the development of the "genre." i suppose it's place now is well suited.

as for jehu, sound samples on amazon arent really an accurate depiction of ones sound. math rock isnt always about changing meters all the time, its about taking an odd meter and working within that, or throwing in subtle rhythmic flares. jehu fused great songwriting, with the mathy aesthetic, hence why they get tagged as such all the time, but nonetheless, a great fucking band.

[edit] about q and not u

i believe there was a number of interviews around the time their second album came out that they stated they were "tired of the screamy/math rock thing" to some extent. many reviewers noted their first album to have a mathy aesthetic (mainly the dual guitar interplay) like the early 90s dischord bands such as hoover and circus lupus. q and not u is not math rock, but was influenced by essential dc bands that got tagged with the unfortunate genre brand.

[edit] Share the knowledge

I added an internal link to List of works in irregular time signatures in the "See also" section at the bottom. Many of the existing samples there are from classical composers and metal bands. This does not convey the wide variety of bands experimenting with odd meters. Come on math rockers! Share the knowledge!

[edit] your band

(this was also added to the list talk page) please stop adding it to lists and the page. and your friends' bands too. it's annoying, and is also cramming up the page with just shameful self-promotion. just because you have one song that has one part in 5/4 doesn't make your band math rock. try "progressive screamo" -dpatrick

• Please sign your posts. Thanks. Badagnani 02:50, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] correction needed

Polvo and Breadwinner aren't from the midwest; Polvo was from Chapel Hill (and really isn't math-rock) and Breadwinner was from Richmond, VA (and definitely is math-rock).

[edit] No Means No

I listened to every sample of No Means No on Amazon and found that, while the group's music is often highly syncopated, it was pretty much all in 4/4. Can the editor who added this group as a "secret influence" explain this further here? Badagnani 07:02, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brazilian bands

I feel strongly that the Brazilian bands should not be included as "math rock" groups as the term is restricted to heavy, complex U.S. and Japanese bands of the 1990s, originating during that time. The earlier Brazilian bands would fall under the complex wing of "prog" (progressive) music, associated with the RIO (Rock in Opposition) movement which was not restricted to South America, but which also included Europe and Japan. Badagnani 04:26, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Emo

I don't think math rock derives from emo, because when math rock developed (mid-1990s) there was no such genre. Badagnani 23:25, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Philo Beddow

Philo Beddow is a real band. I think I've seen them, and I think they had some mathiness to them. Badagnani 20:28, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] DAve Brubeck

Should his band be listed as an influence. Rich Farmbrough 14:23 12 August 2006 (GMT).

If an influence it's a distant one, and probably hasn't direcly affected most math rock musicians or bands except those with the widest listening habits. Brubeck drew on Turkish music for these "odd" meters but his style is much "smoother" than that of most math rock groups, whose aesthetic is very much the musical language of metal. Also, many math rock groups such as Craw utilize constantly changing meters, which isn't typical of Brubeck, who will typically, in the odd-meter tunes he's known for, select a meter of 5 and 7 and generally stay with it. That makes him more similar to some of the "progressive rock" groups that precede math rock. Badagnani 16:20, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] System Of A Down

I personally think System Of A Down should be math rock, because in their music, sometimes, its slow, sometimes its fast, and the tempo always changes with their music. Since they are hard to classify, I think Math Rock is the type of music SOAD plays.4.154.254.133 04:44, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Math rock involves changes in meter, not just tempo or beat. Math rock groups have as their paramount modus operandi the use of odd meters and changing meters. System of a Down, while having some "change-ups" in their music, can thus not be classified as a "math rock" group. Badagnani 04:46, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tool reference

The newly added Tool reference seems to make sense, although I still have to listen to the track. Although they're not primarily a math rock group they do have some songs that are in math rock style. Thus, this mention seems to be well placed. Badagnani 20:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I just listened to the song "The Grudge" on YouTube and it seems to be all in 10/4 with some 7/8 thrown in at the end. It definitely has a "math rock" sound, though with not as many meter changes as Craw or other math rock groups. Badagnani 22:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The last couple Tool albums have a lot of unusual time signatures, but most Math Rock fans are indie rock snobs and would be very uncomfortable with your reference to such a mainstream band in this article. Math rock, unfortunately, is defined as much by a "scene" as it is by its musical qualities, and Tool is not part of that scene.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 01:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The others have weighed in, and there are other editors who think Tool is a math rock band. This belief (though one which I believe to be incorrect) seems to be widespread. The addition of the information that they have showed math rock influence in that song (though they are not considered a math rock band), thus, seems justified. Badagnani 01:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tool and others

I believe that Tool is correct but most Math Rock fans would not agree. It should be kept. What about Maps And Atlases who had a big Guitar Player Magazine print article? They're definitely one of the strongest candidates for current/contemporary Math Rock bands who are gaining acclaim for the category. MrLiberty 04:27, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Maps and Atlases? are you kidding? Fingertapping does not equal math rock, nor does some guitar player magazine. Anyone who can play Nintendo and has some musical ability/hand eye coordination could fingertap, especially in 4/4 as most of their music seems to be in. Their music is progressive emo at best, some wimpy/whiny indie stuff Pitchfork media would really be all about. "Math rock" , stylistically, isnt really about accessibility, whereas Maps and Atlases obviously are. Tool is not a "math rock" band in context of the genre and meeting most of the stylistic characterists. You must not forget the radio play, the NU METAL leanings, the kinship, etc. The rhythmic concept alone, that can obviously be seen as somewhat similar, but describing them in the same breath as a band like Breadwinner is really ridiculous. But the way it was written before, just in terms of rhythmic concepts, is okay by me. sphrrical 23:11 03 December 2006 (UTC)

That's the thing: the use of the term (following Wittgenstein) has changed since the early 1990s, from the brutal, METAL-influenced (and *not* NU-metal) ultra-complex music to the current fashion of meter-changing clean guitar nerdy grad student post-rock. That's just a reality and I think the article makes that clear. So there are two strands, the first being Craw/Dazzling Killmen/Zeni Geva/Ruins/Don Caballero/Yona-Kit/Colossamite/Keelhaul, and the second coming out of the Louisville and Chicago "clean-guitar" sound with changing meters (Slint and its offspring, Tortoise, etc.) That Tool song in question is similar in style to the earlier style of post rock. Badagnani 04:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] math?

going from 3/4 to 4/4 to 6/8 to 5/4 is no more innovative than music that was composed as early as the late 15th century. What other elements qualify this as "Math" Rock? open discussion.....

I think Math Rock is more about being part of a very geeky, specific, exclusive indierock scene and less to do with the style, innovation and complexity of the music itself. Steve Albini is considered the godfather of this genre--and although his band creates some very interesting odd-time-signature grooves, a lot of Shellac's music is simple, bone-crushing 4/4 hard rock. So Math Rock is nothing more than a name some snarky scenester or zinester came up with to label a certain movement/community.

If it were really purely about crazy time signatures/polyrhythms etc., this article would have to include a lot of prog/extreme metal from the 90s and 00s, such as Gorguts, Cryptopsy and Meshuggah, not to mention later Tool, a band many hipsters find nauseating.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 16:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe true of the music going under this moniker now, but it wasn't the case originally. It was clearly the musical style; the term probably came first from the critics but was an apt description. Badagnani 21:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] sources?

Is there any verifiable documentation for this article? It's a cool concept but it comes across a bit WP:NFT. 67.117.130.181 07:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually it starts to seem pretty lame, compared to stuff being done by Conlon Nancarrow and others, 50+ years ago and more. 67.117.130.181 08:47, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

now you just sound like you just dont like the music, kind of POV to call it "lame" while questioning sources, dont you think? --—Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.85.80.105 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Prog Rock

What's the official relation between math rock and progressive rock?? Khullah 03:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

In my understanding the genres are partly delineated from one another by decade of origin and by musical style (though they both share an interest in non-standard meters). Progressive (prog) rock, or art rock, originated in the 1970s and was influenced by classical music and more stylistically diverse in instrumentation, theme, lyrics, timbre, etc. The bands listed in the article include early King Crimson, Yes, Gentle Giant, Magma, plus maybe also Roxy Music, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, Rush, etc. Many of the musicians in these groups were classically trained and wanted to create a more complex and often "symphonic" style of rock music, often with literary or sci-fi/fantasy themes in the lyrics. This style is parodied in the scene from This is Spinal Tap where the band is emerging from cocoons. I don't think the compound meters used by these bands are the defining element of their style, as much as for math rock.

Math rock began in the 1990s as an offshoot of heavy metal and was almost always extremely heavy, distorted, crunchy, etc., with mainly odd, compound, or changing meters. In this regard, the aesthetic is totally different from that progressive rock. A somewhat later style that was also called "math rock" (Slint and the other Louisville bands are good examples) used mostly clean guitars and was less metal influenced. This seems to be the predominant style referred to by the term at present, as many of the original metal-influenced math rock bands are inactive.

I'm not sure what the connection is other than that one could say that some of the math rock bands may have listened to or been inspired by some of the progressive rock bands (especially Rush, I'd say, and, in the case of the Japanese bands, by Magma). I'm not sure if this helps. Badagnani 03:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree mostly with you, but Planet X is very similar to your description of math rock, but they claim theirselfs as prog rock. Very unaesthetic songs. And even though Dream Theater is very often art rock indeed, they have this everchanging time signatures as a basic principle. Like, in some musics, the song is great, every thing sounds fine, and then, in a 6/8 fell, in the last bar they change to 5/8 just to break that same feel. It's a habit for them. Maybe it is a math rock thing in their style. :>) Khullah 04:07, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I wish I knew more of the music of these groups. Can I find audio samples somewhere? From the early "heavy" math rock groups there is an immediately identifiable crunchy, extremely heavy, distorted metal sound that could be described as "unaesthetic." Dream Theater, from the songs I've heard, is more "symphonic" in aesthetic, with keyboards playing string sounds along with the metal sounds. The early math rock bands would never have this. If Dream Theater has ever-changing time signatures that would definitely be an affinity with math rock, though they wouldn't necessarily be described overall as part of that genre. Badagnani 04:14, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. You can find in any net like napster, bit torrent, emule, kazaa, etc. DT is indeed more symphonic, but its complicated, because they try in each album to approach a different style. So you'll find songs that seems more pop, surf, new age, dark, mellow, etc. Try to download "The glass prison", "This dying soul", "In the name of God", "Panic atack" and even "The mirror". I think that, in that order, this is the most dark pieces of them. Just so that you can compare. Khullah 03:28, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I listened to Planet X and there were some small sections that sounded exactly like the heavy style of math rock. But there were also a lot of keyboards and 4/4 sounds which don't agree with the math rock aesthetic. So it would be an example of a group that have some elements of math rock, but which isn't defined as that style. Tool is another case that has been discussed here. Badagnani 03:40, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Cool. Wich one did you listen?? Khullah 15:05, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

The first one I listened to was the song that started playing on their MySpace page. But, strangely, it wasn't one of the 4 titles listed (the title for the song "Now playing" wasn't one of the 4 listed just below; I'm not sure how that happened). It started with an "N," I think. I just listened to MoonBabies and it is EXTREMELY mathy, in a slightly more prog way than groups like Craw or the Dazzling Killmen. Badagnani 17:09, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blind Idiot God

Is there a reason Blind Idiot God are not mentioned? I don't know which meters they used, but I am sure they are at least as much an early influence as NoMeansNo. Anon, 21:57, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Don Cab POV

[...] successfully blends heavy noise rock sounds with avant-garde jazz influences and the fierce non-stop drumming of Damon Che, spellbinding guitars of Mike Banfield and Ian Williams and the fierce yet proportioned bass of Pat Morris.

Spell-binding? Should be edited for less fanboy sentiment. MKV 02:14, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Badagnani 02:15, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] shall the Fibbonacis be considered math rock?

Weren't the Fibbonaci's early, perhaps seminal math rock?

64.142.13.174 07:46, 10 November 2007 (UTC)spope3

[edit] Badagani, stop with the original research

Good grief. One of the few reliable sources we have says: "Math Rock is a relation to post-rock, a better known indie-rock style that shares similar aesthetics. Where post-rock has distinct jazz influences, math rock is the opposite side of the same coin -- it's dense and complex, filled with difficult time signatures and intertwining phrases. Also, the style is a little more rockist than post-rock, since it's usually played by small, guitar-led bands." Also, the same reliable source lists Math Rock in the /Rock/Alternative/Indie-Rock/ directory. Whether you personally regard the genre as "indie rock" is wholly immaterial. The same source, by the way, doesn't say anything about "angularity". This article needs to be blown up, but I'm starting gradually. Stick to the sources.

Also, your last edit summary "Please use "discussion" for such a major change, thanks." is obnoxious and smacks of WP:OWN-ership. I don't need permission to remove poor, vague and unsourced wording. It's bad enough that you're edit warring, worse still that you're fighting to preserve horrible, encyclopedic writing. I'm trying to make modest improvements to the article, you seem to prefer it be left in its current sorry state. --The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 05:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Removing "angular" instead of rewording was very wrong. Similarly, the removal of complexity, atypical rhythmic structures, dissonance, etc. makes no sense because these are defining characteristics of the genre. One either wishes to describe this genre in a factual, comprehensive way or one does not. Your aggressive blanking smacks of WP:POINT and pure spitefulness, something that is not part of the Wikipedian ethos. Badagnani (talk) 05:49, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Please don't mistake irritation/exasperation for spite. I am actually trying to help. Any claims of "defining characteristics" ought to be sourced.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 06:00, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

This is a fairly rarefied subgenre so definitive sources of this type can be hard to come by. I will look through my back issues of "US Rocker," a magazine that covered this subgenre quite a bit in the mid-1990s, to see if anything can be found there. In most cases, the bands do not like to write about or define their style, leaving this to music critics (magazine, newspaper, Internet, 'zine, etc.), who are often not highly trained in music, so their descriptions and comparisons are necessarily often vague or difficult to interpret according to common musical practice. Music encyclopedias (though I believe they should) generally do not discuss the subgenre at all. Badagnani (talk) 07:32, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect edit

This edit is inaccurate, and shows the editor to have little or no knowledge of the genre being discussed. This style of math rock is not "jazz-influenced"; "jazzy" was correct. The removal of other key stylistic description (softer-edged, melodic) is illogical and renders the meaning of the paragraph entirely incorrect. Badagnani (talk) 05:55, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

That post rock is "Jazz influenced" can be sourced. That's why I changed it. Once again, my expertise vis-a-vis yours is irrelevant if your claims cannot be verified.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 06:03, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Note that the source says post rock "has distinct jazz influences." I personally think, by the way, the AMG is a crummy source, but it's more reliable than word from your mouth or mine. If you can help me find a better source, I'll replace the refs, and rewrite some of the language.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 06:03, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I just did some googling and found a column in LA Weekly about Math Rock[1]. I'm going to look it over and see if it's useful. I think this might be a borderline blog, but at least it was published by a notable newspaper.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 06:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. What seems to have been meant in reference to the purtported "jazzy" element of math rock (this term usually being applied to the "lighter," less metal-influenced and more post-rock-oriented forms of math rock) appears to be a more syncopated, less "pounding" style of drumming, which includes a lot of light, fluid snare work that would be more closely associated with jazz drumming than with much hard rock or metal drumming. In this way, it can be seen that these critics' reference to a "jazzy" aesthetic is most likely referring to this portion of the rhythmic aspect, and not to any overt influence from the music of John Coltrane or any other contemporary jazz musician (although the members of such groups may be enthusiasts of such music). I agree that each claim of this sort requires investigation, but there are key stylistic criteria that help define the "heavier" form of what is called math rock, as well as the "lighter" form--which have in common their interest in compound and/or changing meter, but are often quite different in other aesthetic parameters. Badagnani (talk) 07:28, 26 December 2007 (UTC)