Talk:Mata Hari
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[edit] Mata-mata
Note that, coincidentally, mata-mata means spy in Indonesian.
First of all, the term mata-mata (literally eye-eye) doesn't actually mean 'spy'. It means 'police' in colloquial Indonesian and Malay.
Secondly, it has little to do with Mata Hari. The police are said to be 'all eyes' or always on the look out for crime.
I would've removed the sentence myself, but I didn't want to step on anyone's toes.
--Nestum82 09:07, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
- i am an Indonesian, and yes, mata-mata is a common word to describe spy in Indonesian language. :)
- andry 14:05, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
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- Mata mata/matamata is also a South American turtle, and, coincidentally, 'turtle' is used in Chinese slang to refer to a prostitute, presumably to suggest a compliant nature, 'turtle master' meaning 'pimp,' a common insult traditionally, and once again in in revisionist China. Also in English slang, apparently [1].
A firing squad?! What a waste of good...(Oct.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.24.95.218 (talk • contribs) 17:09, 15 October 2005
- It would be in your case.
[edit] 1985 Film
I came here hoping to find some reference to the 1985 film and its accuracy. Since it stars Sylvia Kristel, famous for her roles in the Emmanuelle series, I have doubt the film's focus was historical accuracy.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089565/
There appears to have been several other renditions of Mata Hari throughout cinematic history, which at least merit mention beside Greta Garbo's.
Further, the page herein seems to be overly abundant with video game refernces that either use Mata Hari's name only, or are genericaly derived from her. There are many real world, literary, and cinematic refernces that are probably much more deserving of mention than these. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.240.34.148 (talk • contribs) 00:27, 3 November 2005
[edit] Mata Hari Images
I would like to include a PD image of Mati Hari that is in color which would enhance the article and one taken shortly before she was executed. If anyone would have any objections please place them on this page.--Dakota ~ ° 05:18, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
- There certainly appear to be more definitive images available[2], altho they may be subject to copyright. Also, it doesn't seem easy to find the legendary nude photographic portraits on the Net.
- 5 seconds http://www.mata-hari.com/images/mata-hari.com-1911.jpg Mach10 (talk) 10:24, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Shadow Hearts
I don't know if anyone feels this deserves especial notation, but there is a character in the original Shadow Hearts by the name of Margarete G. Zelle. The character is more of a fictional creation based on Mata Hari than an actual representation of the historical figure. In this game, Margarete is an American spy with no background on exotic dancing. She does use sex appeal to her advantage, though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.5.43.112 (talk • contribs) 18:57, 25 March 2006
[edit] Pure Dutch?
Every source I looked at didn't say anything about her mother being javanese, one source said that becasue of her complexsion people thought she was Javanese, but it looks like she was actually just Dutch.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk
- I agree, nowhere that I searched did I come up with anything of her being Javanese or Eurasian or anything other then Dutch. Most reliable sources talk about how she posed as a princess of Java but none say that she actualy was, so why is she listed under the Eurasian catagory? BeNNoulA 29 June 2006
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- There seems to be an odd discrepancy, also, between the sultry Mata Hari of repute and old photographs and the account of her preserved severed head [3] being red-haired. It seems easier to believe that the anatomical museum switched heads than that she engaged in a regular and complex effort to conceal her true appearance(?).
[edit] This article is complete crap
This article is complete crap and needs to be rewritten from scratch. Adam 09:30, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- What an extremely helpful comment.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.162.34.103 (talk • contribs) 14:57, November 28, 2006.
- It doesn't seem to altogether do the subject justice, tho - perhaps a moot point in her case.
[edit] Paying attention to edits
Please pay more attention to vandalism edits see this diff [4]. While someone obviously reverted the bit about martin luther king, in all the months since then no one bothered to revert the change in the link.--Crossmr 00:16, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Scorpio???
she's supposed to be a scorpio, so the birth date is wrong... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.140.245.253 (talk • contribs) 15:35, 8 September 2006
- Supposed by whom? The native shows many of the alleged characteristics of a Leo, and the attempt to make her a Scorpio (associated with death, sex, treachery, and a 'sting in the tail') seem part of an attempt to demonise her by her killers, who also, perhaps, seek to play down the fact that her career was as much an escape from the extremes of prostitution as prostitution itself, as well as the background pressures underlying that career 'choice.'
[edit] Board Game
There is a board game of the same name, right? Mathiastck 22:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Pop culture reference: War in Hell
I remember she is one of the characters in the 'Heroes in Hell' series of books. However, it's a sort of shared world thing and it's a LONG time since I read it, so I don't remember the details well enough to add it sensibly, like in which of the books or which author, which would be necessary for veracity. (Besides being new to this wikipedia edit thing). If someone has the books at hand and can double check this, please do! [5] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.208.95.71 (talk • contribs) 17:05, 20 September 2006
[edit] MacLeod is Scottish, not Dutch
I always thought "MacLeod" is a Scottish name. It means "Son of Leod" in Scottish Gaelic. There's nothing Dutch to it - or are you trying to say that McLeod is a Dutchman of Scottish descent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.168.95.225 (talk • contribs) 09:16, 15 October 2006
- In fact, there are many people of Scottish descent living in the Netherlands. This dates back to the Eighty Years' War, when mercenaries from all over Europe (especially from protestant countries like Scotland) were recruited to serve in the Dutch States-General army. 12.74.162.121 14:28, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- Your use of the word 'mercenary' seems somewhat POV. How is paid military service in the defence of correligionist nations any more 'mercenary' than any other profession?
- And when we look at Grietje Zelle from the specific perspective of her protestant background, does it not indeed shed some light on the groundbreaking nature of her career, elevating exotic dancing to an art form and an alternative, for women of limited means, to prostitution, as well as her ultimate martyrdom at the hands of the French authorities?
[edit] Removed "Inappropriate tone" tag
I came into the article with no real prior knowledge of the subject because it was on the front page today, and I found nothing wrong with it. It seems at least as well written and probably better written than a lot of Wikipedia articles. Spalding 12:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- There are a lot of points where the article makes colorful points about her character or her place in culture that seem to stray from including neutral, sourced information for the sake of writing an interesting story. It's not as bad now as it was, since I changed the example that caught my eye when I added the tag ("
Naturally,popular imagination was fired..."), but it still just doesn't feel right because it's got no sourcing for its big claims, that she caught the public eye in her own time and became a literal overnight hit. Reading the referenced article, it says she got to sensation status in under six months from when she started out--which is still not literally an overnight hit. We're out to tell the good stories in wikipedia through the virtue of their own facts, not superfluous prose. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 18:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Added a reference for the "overnight success" claim. It seems to be literally true, and it is true that it occurred very rapidly, which is the usual meaning of the phrase. Hu 18:34, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I tagged it because of the casual and informal language. It's been improved a fair bit, but I don't know if 'grim' in but as the times grew more grim is formal enough. At the time of her arrest, France was at a low point in the war. Morale was down, there was seemingly no end in sight, hundreds of thousands of both Central Powers and Triple Entente forces had died, and there was a hunger for a scapegoat. The now-famous Dutchwoman seemed to fit the role. reads like a story. Iorek85 22:21, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- There are several instances of inappropriate tone, such as "her spirit overflowed with eroticism..."--Jack Upland 06:27, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
-
- What does a nine year-old self-styled 'child progeny' know of what is or what is not 'appropriate'?
[edit] Name
Mata Hari this name is assoiciated with Indian people. I thought that it is man's name from India philosophy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.253.247.66 (talk • contribs) 16:08, 15 October 2006
[edit] Generic Writing of History Question
This is kind of a dumb, possibly irrelevant question, but the article states this: “Although it has been speculated since that there was no concrete evidence, she was nevertheless found guilty and was executed by firing squad …”; if a person is possibly executed without reasonable evidence, could that be considered they were possibly murdered by the state?
"Murder by the state" would likely be considered non-neutral language, albeit there are plenty of incidents in world history that trial and execution was no more than such. The burning of Joan of Arc, for example.
But states generally don’t murder. They post a bounty (fatwa, whatever). They call for assassination. They execute. They force disappearance. They wage war. To suggest that a sovereign entity commits murder tends to imply doubt in its legitimacy as a state government than to highlight the heinousness of its crimes. Uriel-238 13:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
most definitions of murder define it in terms of one person intentionally ending the life of another, and would therefore not apply to any arbitrary agent. For instance:
- "the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law." (dictionary.com) "another human being" implies action by one human being against another.
- "The unlawful killing of one human by another" (American Heritage Dictionary)
Given this it doesn't make sense to talk about a state agency committing murder. Speed8ump 16:36, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I think this discussion is largely irrelevant, but nothing above leads to the conclusion that a state can't murder (e.g. the Holocaust). There is nothing in the legal definition of murder which makes it an individual act (obviously).--Jack Upland 06:30, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
- Murder is, I think, a loaded term, when discussing the actions of non-individual entities. I think the Holocaust would fall under Genocide. Ironically, part of Hitler's ambition was the reinstatement of monarchies and feudalism, re-linking the states to the individuals who ruled them, and hence, were he successful, putting the blood of the Holocaust victims directly on his hands, and not on the proverbial hands of Germany.
- The question of relevance regards whether it can (or even should) be said that France murdered Mata Hari (by firing squad). I suppose she did if we also said that England murdered Joan of Arc.Uriel-238 23:25, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
-
- Not really. I mean, the article said she was put on trial in France, found guilty, and executed as the result. The definition of execution as found on Wikipedia (!) is such: "Capital punishment, also known as the death penalty, is the execution of a convicted criminal by the state as punishment for crimes known as capital crimes or capital offences." So yeah, basically this whole conversation is pointless. Shadowrun 08:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Her name meaning
In all the articles online about Mata Hari not one of them uses the Sanskrit meaning. Her name is cited as meaning "Eye of the Day" in Malayan.
When reporters and others interviewed her, Margaretha continually added to the mystique that surrounded her by spinning fantastic, fictionalized stories about her background, including being a Javanese princess and daughter of a baron. To sound more exotic, she took the stage name "Mata Hari," Malayan for "eye of the day" (the sun). http://history1900s.about.com/od/1910s/p/MataHari.htm
You can find the same meaning all over. Though Mata is Sankrit means "Mother" I don't think that was what she was intending.
I'm going to change it if someone doesn't. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.118.34.33 (talk) 17:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC).
I came to the same conclusion when I clicked and read one of the references in this article: http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_spies/spies/hari/5.html
"She wanted a new life so she baptized herself with a new name: Mata Hari. In Malay, matahari is the term for the sun. Literally speaking, it means “eye of dawn.” " 82.172.96.127 12:40, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Doesn't "hari" mean "day"; cf. Selamat hari ulangtahun = Happy birthday? RahadyanS 06:51, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
==> Yes: Mata Hari is literally: 'eye of the day', meaning nothing else than 'sun' (user:saskia.louise)
- OK, Mata could mean "mother", but Hari??? Hare is a Hindu divine name, but the Sanskrit word for "god" is dev--Jack Upland 06:32, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I prefer to rewrite "This can also be translated as "Eye of the Dawn" in Malay or Indonesian." into "This can also be translated as "The Sun" in Malay or Indonesian (literally, "Mata Hari" means "Eye of the Day)." Kembangraps 14:23, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
- I'd leave out 'also' and remove the reference to Sanskrit altogether.--Valmont7 19:54, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Vandalism
An entire paragraph was removed by a vandal, more than 2 months ago. The fact that that went unnoticed for such a long time clearly demonstrates that the notion of an open encyclopedia is a dismal failure. I have decided to stop wasting my time on it; one simply cannot afford to watch one's article for all eternity to protect it against vandals & crooks. 12.74.162.121 14:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
lol, what make's it one's article more than anyone else's? pfft. Viva la Wikipedia! Guitarhero91 03:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Knots Landing
I removed the following entry from "Legend and popular culture -> Miscellaneous":
In the 1980's American prime-time series Dallas II: Knots Landing, in episode 2, the character of Karen McKenzie mentions how she always wanted to play Mata Hari.
The Knots Landing page does not list an actress named Karen McKenzie, and I couldn't find her via google either. So the whole thing doesn't sound very convincing, besides, it is not all too notable anyway. — Graf Bobby 00:47, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The character is Karen McKenzie, not the actress ... that is Michelle Lee. Not that it probably matters. Mapjc 01:44, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Lyric & Scissor Sisters
While I understand that it is a rather insignificant point, I have removed the reference to the Scissor Sister's single "Get It Get It".
The original line said that the first line of the song is "Mata Hari dances - whenever I'm with you." The real lyrics are: "My heart - it dances - whenever I'm with you"
I ran a google search of the lyrics, and tried the top five websites for lyrical content, all of which had the lyrics as "My heart - it dances..."
I would much rather the song reference Mata Hari, as I think it makes the lyrics much more suggestive and dangerous, but *sigh* it does not.
76.197.230.112 18:53, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Biographical Errors Corrected
Mata Hari's daughter, Non, died at the age of 21 from what appears to be a stroke, long after the execution of her mother. At the same time, the most authoritative book on the woman, Mata Hari: The True Story, by Russell Warren Howe mentions nothing about a marriage after McLeod or a daughter named "Flora." She had only two children--Non, and a boy who was poisoned in Java. The article has been edited accordingly. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.186.132.61 (talk) 01:00, 6 May 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Removal of Nude Photo?
It is absolutely not an image of Mata Hari--she famously never bore her breasts because she was ashamed of their size (See every biography written on her--she famously told admirers the reason for her modesty was that her former husband bit off her nipples in a fit of rage, though this was not true). I may delete the image if there are no objections.
You are not having a fit of prudence are you? I don't know how true it is, but the article mentions she had no problems to "pose nude", i think that includes breasts.. Hers don't seem outsized one way or another , on the dressed pictures. On a sidenote i met relatives of "mata hari", that suggested she was interested in emancipation politics (and peace) wich fits her choice of name unexpectedly well.(there will not be peace without spies) An ancient nude fotograph would suit her article as she became some kind of symbol for the influence of woman and had an impact on the mores of her times. My guess is she would like it to be there.77.251.179.188 12:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] 'Alleged double agent' section
The sentence which starts 'Remarkably...' is tortuous, tenebrous and doesn't seem to make any sense or suggest that the author has a good grasp of his/her subject matter (what is it that attracts those least familiar with matters of intelligence to write about them?). What is 'remarkable' about wartime enemies cracking each other's communication codes, particularly in the context of alleged double agents? What seems to have happened is quite simple - the Germans seem to have decided to dispose of Ms.McLeod by depicting her to the intercepting French Intelligence as an active German agent, a ruse the French seem to have fallen for hook, line and sinker, resulting in her effective martyrdom. Altho the idea of Mata Hari as scapegoat, discussed in this section, sounds plausible, it doesn't address the possibility that the French authorities were acting in good faith, having succumbed to the German ruse to make them dispose of their own agent. What would make the warring nations collude in her destruction, apart from misogeny - unless her information was also effectively undermining the predominantly male activity of war itself.
24.143.70.192 You seem to be getting both sides of the argument from this same article; cracking a communication code, especially before computers were used to compile data was about the hardest -and most remarkable thing- people of intelligence did.
Regarding the writing of the article, I think it was written by someone who's first language is not English, which is fine (English is not my first language either) but that accounts for the sentence structure and the writing sounding a little off. Also, Rigorous citation is an anglo (and mostly American) proclivity, so that may account for the lack of sources provided. 11/09/07 philosopher2king —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.70.192 (talk) 19:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Early Life Section Needs Major Cleaning
The Early Life section needs a lot of work. Some things are editorialized or come across as plain subjectivities as in:
"She was not known for being remarkably beautiful, but her spirit was overflowing with eroticism." I don't think anyone writing in wikipedia these days knew her back then to know that about her (it would be anecdotal anyway) so that comment needs to be qualified, as in "it was said..." and a proper source given. Other uncredited claims become apparent when one reads this section.
I usually don't make suggestions if I cannot fix them myself, but I know nothing about Mata Hari except what I just read in this article (part of my "learn something everyday" habit). So hopefully a Mata Hari buff who has read a few of her biographies will take some time to clean this section up a bit.
Cheers! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.70.192 (talk) 18:49, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Their son died in 1899, possibly of complications relating to the treatment of syphilis contracted from his parents, though the family claimed he was poisoned by an irate servant. Some historians believe that possibly one of Rudolf's enemies may have poisoned the child. This could use a bit of cleaning (the rest of the article looks okay as of now.) It reads like these 3 possibilities should be merged into a single thought, and/or the reasoning for each explained in greater depth.--Sobekneferu (talk) 21:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Discovery
"Remarkably, the messages were in a code that German intelligence knew had already been broken by the French, leaving some historians to suspect that the messages were contrived so that, if she was in fact working for the French, they would be able to unmask her as a double agent and effectively neutralize her." I took out the end of that sentence, as even the article makes it clear there is disagreement on how and why Mata Hari's downfall came about. For example, the 'framed by Ladoux' theory has it that he has actually planted the messages himself. There are other theories as well, but they don't need to go there, I believe. --76.18.93.72 (talk) 09:49, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Questions
I'm a firm believer that most of what is on television is pure nonsense these days, but had a couple questions about something random I heard on television. Mata Hari was mentioned in a History Channel program (I think it was "Great Spy Stories: Hitler's Spies"). It said that Mata Hari traveled to Paris in 1919, met George Ladu (head of the French Secret Service) and then was captured and interrogated before traveling to Spain, etc. The article currently states that it is "unclear" if she was working for the French; is that because other sources say that the meeting in Paris didn't happen?
Also, the program also mentioned that the transmission of the message with the code already broken was a undeniably on purpose, and that this was due to her affair with the military attache himself - von Calle, who sent the messages to be intercepted to set her up. This information is also found (in more detail than it gave on television) on the BBC website.
So anyway, I was curious if any of that needed to be added or clarified, or is it deliberately not stated in the article because it is disputed by other scholars or historians? *Vendetta* (whois talk edits) 08:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
