User talk:Masculinity

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Welcome!

Hello, Masculinity, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question and then place {{helpme}} before the question on your talk page. Again, welcome! --NeilN talk ♦ contribs 17:05, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] External links

Please do not add inappropriate external links to Wikipedia, as you did to Gay. Wikipedia is not a collection of links, nor should it be used for advertising or promotion. Inappropriate links include (but are not limited to) links to personal web sites, links to web sites with which you are affiliated, and links that attract visitors to a web site or promote a product. See the external links guideline and spam guideline for further explanations. Since Wikipedia uses nofollow tags, external links do not alter search engine rankings. If you feel the link should be added to the article, please discuss it on the article's talk page rather than re-adding it. Thank you.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 15:00, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Welcome!
Welcome!

Hello, Masculinity, and welcome to Wikipedia! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, please see our help pages, and if you can't find what you are looking for there, please feel free to leave me a message or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will drop by to help. SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 15:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Satyr. I will take your help as and when needed.(Masculinity (talk) 05:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC))

[edit] UNESCO document on masculinity

Thanks for the note you left me on my talk page. It's always better to discuss potentially problematic links than to edit war. Let's discuss the merit of the link you inserted on the discussion page for the Gay article, so that others can join the discussion as well.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 15:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sexual Orienation is a western concept and should not be seen as universal

The entire idea that people, especially men, can be divided on the basis of their 'proclaimed' sexuality is a concept peculiar to the modern west, and to discuss the concept as a universal phenomena, and to judge or study sexuality, men and masculinities in other cultures or in other times on the basis of these concepts not only distorts and misrepresents their reality, but is also seen as oppressive by people on whom the west enforces these identities, often through the one-sided process of globalisation.

Wikipedia, should take into account this fact when discussing modern western concepts such as 'sexual orientation', 'homosexuality', 'heterosexuality', 'gay' and 'straight', etc., and it should clearly mention this fact, because, although it is an English site, it is meant for the entire world, and not only for the western world.

Only that will make it a truly relevant and global site.

Personally, I completely agree with you. The Fat Man has traveled throughout the Orient; it would seem that the gap between the constructs of male sexuality in, say, South India and the United States are miles (or kilometers) apart. That being said, Wikipedia was not created for you and I to discuss our personal views. So here's what I would suggest: find some statements or sections of articles that seem unduly biased toward Western notions of sexuality. Discuss those sections on the articles' talk pages, and try your hand at rewriting these sections citing reliable sources--for example, the UNESCO publication we discussed earlier.
Creating citations and footnotes is fun, and it improves the quality of the article. I can help you create citations, if you show me which sources you'd like to use (be specific).--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 15:49, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, thank you. I'll try my best. (Masculinity (talk) 16:07, 15 February 2008 (UTC))

<<find some statements or sections of articles that seem unduly biased toward Western notions of sexuality. Discuss those sections on the articles' talk pages, and try your hand at rewriting these sections citing reliable sources--for example, the UNESCO publication we discussed earlier.>>

Eventhough, I'm going to follow this advice in articles on wikipedia related to such topics, in this particular case, the problem seems to not to be what the article says, but rather what it does not say. It describes the social construction of human, especially male sexuality, as it is formally and popularly seen in the west ... assuming it to be universally applicable. As far as the article is concerned, the only difference is between people who are open about their 'gay' identities and those men who relate with sexually wtih other men but do not call themselves gay, who are described as 'closeted' (or bicurious or so). A person from the orient finds the entire notion of isolation on the basis of so-called 'sexual orientation' problematic. When almost everyman is involved in some sexual way with another man, you don't really feel different for liking men.

How do you explain this dichotomy in the article? The term 'Gay' carries with it all the negative baggages of the 'heterosexualised' society, where the pressures on men to disown their same-sex needs is so extreme, that only very few men think of indulging in male-to-male sexuality by acknowledging it. The rest either keep away totally and deny their feelings, or indulge in male-eroticism without acknowledging their own interest. The term 'gay' is based on the lots of assumptions which are invalid in a non-western, non-heterosexualised world. E.g., the very concept of their being 'gay' assumes that most men do not feel sexuality towards other men. Then, who is defined as the 'same-sex'. The western culture only considers the outer sex of an individual when deciding their sex-identity, but in most non-western cultures, the sex-identity also involves, compulsorily the Gender or the inner sex of an individual. Thus a Hijra may have a penis, but he will be a different 'sex' or rather 'gender' than 'Men', because s(he) is a woman inside a man. A man and Hijra having sex is not seen as 'same-sex' in non-western countries. Of course, the west doesn't recognise 'Gender' as a valid human phenomena, and ascribes it to a mental aberration. Then of course, there is a whole lot of conspiracies behind the very concept of 'gay' or 'sexual orientation' -- revolving around men and manhood, which is relevant both in the west and the east, but men in western countries do not have a space to address these issues, and also that their cultural mindset makes them incapable to comprehend the exact parameters of these issues. (Masculinity (talk) 17:17, 15 February 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Wikiproject:LGBT Studies

Perhaps you would be interested in joining WP:LGBT? It sounds like you could be an asset to the project, helping to fill in a gap in our expertise, as we are, without question, dominantly western. I invite you to take a look at the project, and join if you care to do so. Aleta (Sing) 16:08, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, I will love to join.

You're welcome! You'll notice that the bottom section of WP:LGBT is where you can sign up for the project. Aleta (Sing) 16:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I joined the WP:LGBT, but I have no idea how to get involved and share my concerns. Can you help me?

I'm putting the official welcome to the project below. It has several links you can use to get started. Of particular note is the talk page for the project, at WT:LGBT. Aleta (Sing) 17:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I too appreciate your comments on "homosexuality" that Aleta copied to WT:LGBT, and if you need me I'd be glad to help out with getting your concerns properly referenced and added to the appropriate main pages. (BTW: it'd probably help if you put some introduction about yourself on your user page. See WP:USER) Welcome! William P. Coleman (talk) 18:32, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you William. I'll need all the help I can get. Its late at night at my end, so I'll go to sleep now. Tomorrow have an exam. Probably, will get to the computer tommorrow night. (Masculinity (talk) 19:53, 16 February 2008 (UTC))

Notice that when you sign your name to a post it appears in red, whereas Aleta's and the others' appear in blue. Just click on "Masculinity" in your signature and you'll be taken to a blank user page where you can create whatever you want. William P. Coleman (talk) 21:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome

Hi, Masculinity, welcome to WikiProject LGBT Studies!

We are a growing community of Wikipedia editors dedicated to identifying, categorizing, and improving articles of interest to the LGBT community. Some points that may be helpful:

  • Our main aim is to help improve LGBT-related articles, so if someone asks for help with an article, please try your hardest to help them if you are able.
  • Most important discussions take place on the project's main discussion page; it is highly recommended that you watchlist it.
  • The project has several ongoing and developing activities, such as article quality assessment, peer review and a project-wide article collaboration, all of which you are welcome to take part in. We also have a unique program to improve our lower quality articles, Jumpaclass, so please consider signing up there.
  • If you have another language besides English, please consider adding yourself to our translation section, to help us improve our foreign LGBT topics.
  • If you're planning to stay, have a square in our quilt! You can put anything you want in it.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask on the talk page, and we will be happy to help you.

And once again - Welcome!

Aleta (Sing) 17:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Using references, sandbox

Hi Masculinity, I notice you recently made additions to Homosexuality that have been reverted as original research. I suggest you read through WP:NOR thoroughly. I appreciate the perspective you are trying to bring, but it is absolutely imperative that you cite any additions to articles with reliable sources. If you don't, people will revert your changes. All material should be cited, but material that is likely to be controversial, as yours is, especially has to be well cited. I know you have at least one source for some of it, but you need to find some more before trying to add it to articles, and include the references when you make the additions. I noticed there was a placeholder saying "insert footnote here" in your previous edits. If you are working on something, but don't yet have all the reference material handy, you might want to build your work in your sandbox, which you can create by clicking on User:Masculinity/sandbox. Then, when your edits are actually referenced and ready to go in an article, you can transfer them there. Aleta (Sing) 00:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Hello Aleta,

I have three references, as of now. And I wanted to add them. But I was not being permitted to add it, for some reason. That is what I want help on.

Also, don't you think that even if there is one valid source -- and too as important one as UNESCO, it shoudl be enough at least to mention that there is a divergence of view.

regards (Masculinity (talk) 17:52, 19 February 2008 (UTC))

Hi Masculinity, I'm not sure what you mean. You obviously have been able to edit the article, because you did edit it. There is not a separate references page. The references should be incorporated right within the text you create. There's nothing else I can think of where you'd have been prevented from adding a reference. Take a look at WP:CITE#HOW and WP:FOOT for specifics on how to cite references in your text. If you still have questions then, let me know! Aleta (Sing) 21:01, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Aleta, thanx ... I think I was doing it all wrong. I clicked the edit button of the reference section to put in text, and there were no references there. I think in a previous article I had done it that way.

But I think now I can do it. But before that I'll put my text and the references up for others to see at the discussion page. (Masculinity (talk) 15:00, 21 February 2008 (UTC))

You're welcome! Putting everything on the talk page first sounds like a very good idea. :) Aleta (Sing) 22:26, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] March 2008

Hi, the recent edit you made to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies has been reverted, as it appears to be unconstructive. Use the sandbox for testing; if you believe the edit was constructive, ensure that you provide an informative edit summary. You may also wish to read the introduction to editing. Thanks. Steve Crossin (talk) 12:36, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] LGBT WikiProject Newsletter

Delivered by SatyrBot around 17:14, 3 March 2008 (UTC) SatyrBot (talk) 17:47, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Your recent edits

Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. If you can't type the tilde character, you should click on the signature button Image:Signature_icon.png located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! --SineBot (talk) 04:28, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

oops! I usually sign it, but sometimes, when I'm in a hurry, I do forget. (Masculinity (talk) 05:06, 6 March 2008 (UTC))

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Gay. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. NeilN talk ♦ contribs 16:15, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Click the history tab up top at the Gay article or click here [1]. By the way, the removal was not sabotage. Edit summaries were provided and reasons were provided on the talk page. --NeilN talk ♦ contribs 16:28, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

You will usually receive a notice on your talk page if your edit was reverted because it was against wikipedia policies or guidelines. If your edit was undone for other reasons you should check the edit summary or the talk page. Do you want some links to guidelines on how wikipedia works? --NeilN talk ♦ contribs 16:43, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Regarding original research, you were given a link to wikipedia policy above. Do you have any questions? --NeilN talk ♦ contribs 16:48, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Civility

Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we would like to remind you not to attack other editors, as you did on Talk:Non-western concepts of male sexuality#Overzealous editing. Please comment on the contributions and not the contributors. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Queerudite (talk) 18:53, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussing with other editors

Hi Masculinity, I realize you have frustrations with some of the reception your contributions have been receiving. I'd just like to suggest, however, that tossing around terms like "strong gay lobby" and accusing editors with whom you have a disagreement of bias is not a very productive strategy for building consensus. Even if they are biased (and I am not saying that - you won't get me to address that either way), those sorts of comments tend to alienate people and make them less likely to work constructively with you. It also either violates, or at least comes close to violating the no personal attacks policy. Aleta Sing 00:26, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

As for whether anyone can go and edit the article without asking your permission, yes, they can do that. You may be the original or main author of an article, but you don't own it. It is, of course, a good idea and polite for people to discuss major changes, but adding tags doesn't generally come under that heading. Aleta Sing 00:26, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

This advice is meant to be friendly and constructive. I hope that's how you take it. :) If you have any questions, I'll try to help. Aleta Sing 00:26, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Another editor (I don't recall whom at the moment) suggested filing a request for comment as a way of getting additional opinions about the article from a wider spectrum of editors. I think this is a good idea, and I encourage you to pursue it. Aleta Sing 00:26, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proper formatting of talk page contribution

Given that you are having several protracted discussions with other editors on various talk pages, I think that it would be valuable for you to learn how to properly format your contributions for maximum readability. The two most important things: (1) you should stop putting extra spaces between your paragraphs (one carriage return is adequate to mark a new paragraph); (2) when you are replying to a previous comment, make sure to use an indentation (a colon (:) preceding each paragraph). Add extra colons for extra indentations as needed. Consult WP:Talk page#Formatting for your reference. Also, please stop using ALL CAPS to make important points. It comes across as WP:Uncivil. Thanks.--Agnaramasi (talk) 19:01, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] new message

Hello, Masculinity. You have new messages at Aleta's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} template.

Aleta Sing 18:20, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


Hello, Masculinity. You have new messages at Aleta's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} template.

Aleta Sing 18:52, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

And again. P.S. Please indent your messages on talk pages using colons. Aleta Sing 19:00, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Slow down!

Hey Masculinity, I think it would be a good idea to slow down adding information on the same topic to different articles. At least wait a bit and see how the RFC goes at Talk:Gay, and discuss proposed changes that are likely to be controversial on talk pages. OK? Aleta Sing 03:07, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Aleta, I have observed that at each article I have to fight it out with a different set of people to get the information included. At each article, they refuse to go by the discussion of what was arrived at discussion at another talk page, and want me to take up the discussion afresh. It is becasue of this that I decided to carry on several parallel discussions at the sametime. Since, they seem to be independant of each other.
What do you think?(Masculinity (talk) 03:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC))
Well, they are separate, but inter-related. You do need to have a conversation at each article's talk page. Aleta Sing 04:12, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


Hello, Masculinity. You have new messages at Aleta's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} template.

Aleta Sing 04:17, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Space for discussion

Here is a place you can ask questions, tell us we're part of "a segment of the LGBT community, the chauvinists who don't want the non-Western voice to be heard", suggest changes to all of the articles you want, etc. Your back-and-forth loooooong debates where you insert quotes and references makes the pages hard to read. Talking on the discussion pages is fine, but for the very long references and quotes, try adding them here first and ask people to take a look by linking to this talk page. I'm not going to let you drag me into another pointless argument on these talk pages because I don't know if that's your goal on Wikipedia, to argue, but most of us are here for more than just these articles that you're concentrating on. AgnosticPreachersKid (talk) 15:17, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestion. But here we are talking about changes to a specific section, in this case the article on Gay, and I don't think how discussing things on my talk page would help people reach a consensus on what is to be included in that article. (Masculinity (talk) 15:27, 22 March 2008 (UTC))
I give up on you. AgnosticPreachersKid (talk) 15:32, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Masculinity. I agree with some of the proposed changes but I do wish that you were a bit more patient. When you are forceful people are quick to be offended. Also, don't allow them to take you off topic, as when the discussion morphed to the femininized male in western society. That's an argument you won't win and it waters down the more important points. It gives your critics something to bite at. Otherwise, I think you'd be wise to clean up the "Non-western masculity" page you created. Add the new information you've been gathering... with lots of great examples. Add that information about Japan... And then see if you can get it added to the See Also section at the bottom of the gay page. A lot of people seem to have been fighting a fight for so long they forget that theirs isn't the only way to see things. I also desperately wish that they would broaden their thinking, but it's a Utopian idea that needs to be massaged, not forced. It will happen sooner than you think. I think you managed well to get what you've gotten on there right now. Given someone doesn't come along and delete it all again! DEZnCHRIS (talk) 21:55, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Your recent edits

Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. If you can't type the tilde character, you should click on the signature button Image:Signature_icon.png located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! --SineBot (talk) 15:22, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] my RFA

 Thank you!

Thank you for your support in my RFA. The passed with a final count of (73/3/1), so I am now an administrator. Please let me know if at any stage you need help, or if you have comments on how I am doing as an admin. Have a nice day! :) Aleta Sing 19:29, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello, masculinity. I am kenvbk, you know me already. You are certainly posting up a storm here on wikipedia. I only hope that you do no alienate people and end up getting banned. That would be a shame. Feel free to add more comments on my page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Taeda (talk • contribs) 19:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

So, since they are bent on tearing apart the UNESCO resource... what else do you have? You seem to have been quoting various other things over the last while. Can you just pass me the sources for those and I'll investigate a bit, too. Thanks. DEZnCHRIS (talk) 18:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I will do what I can. What are the main thrusts of the project right now? Taeda (talk) 20:41, 28 March 2008 (UTC)Taeda

[edit] which page needs a RFC?

Which page needs to link to the "non-western" page?? gay? Taeda (talk) 22:58, 31 March 2008 (UTC)Taeda

[edit] LGBT WikiProject Newsletter

This newsletter was delivered by §hepBot around 16:02, 11 June 2008 (UTC). ShepBot (talk) 16:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)